Author Topic: Building a Competition  (Read 12277 times)

Offline Mark Toorock

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Building a Competition
« on: June 22, 2007, 09:55:08 AM »
I'd like to hear people's ideas on how to make a good competition.

How could you make a competition that actually favored the skills people gain from Parkour Training?

How about Freerunning?


I'm interested in :

Ideas for the course

Ideas for the structure (points, time, etc)

Ideas for team games, or if you feel it should be strictly individual.



I'm not interested in (and will delete from this thread)

"Don't make a competition"

"Parkour is not competitive by nature"

"Trying to make it better is no excuse for having a competition"


If you'd like to talk about those things, please dig up one of the "anti-competition" threads.


I will be making a competition based around Parkour and Freerunning, here is your chance to have constructive input.
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Offline Jesse Clark

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 10:08:37 AM »
Well I'm not big on competition but I think that if your doing a parkour competition, should be most definitely be based on time. Not style or creativity. (Okay maybe a little.) Time and execution of the movements.

Free Running is a different story. No time what-so-ever, just raw, creativity and fluidity. Both could be done on the same obstacle course since Traceurs and Free Runners both play on the same playground. Just in different ways.

How exactly to score would be difficult. We can't do the typical gymnastics 1.0 - 10.0. Too boring and not detailed enough on what they scored low or high for.

Sorry I can't help much more, but that's my outtake to get people talking.
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Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 10:40:59 AM »
I think in one of those other competition threads I suggested something to this effect:

*cordon off a section of the city (like they do for marathons and charity runs/bike races)
*have a pre-defined starting line and finish line
*have several "touchpoints" scattered throughout the competition zone, marked with a flag or some such
*winner is the traceur who can have the best time from start to finish *and* who can touch the most touchpoints

Whether or not to reveal the locations of the touchpoints ahead of time is up for debate.

That's my idea, FWIW. We have to look at what it is we hope to measure with a competition. If it's purely parkour, then we have to look at the aim of parkour which is to get from A to B in the most efficient way possible. So measuring "flashy stunts" is not really an aim of a parkour competition. Instead we want to look at a traceur's skill level in terms of interacting with the environment, and also in terms of overall fitness. The touchpoints are there to sort of "force" a competitor to (a) have her "parkour eyes" open, and (b) to use a variety of skills. The skills/movements chosen to reach a touchpoint will affect the competitor's time and will speak to efficiency. If I'm less skilled at wall-climbs, I'll lose time on a touchpoint at a wall; but I may make up those seconds by being a fast runner between touchpoints. A traceur with other skills will save and lose seconds on his time in other ways.

I prefer to keep it simple, personally.

Just 2 cents from a n00b. ;)
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Offline Nik "Nik" Horvat

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 11:40:15 AM »
If it were me i'd do an obstacle course with more than 1 path through.  Stagger the routes based on difficulty and distance.  If you took the hardest route it would be the shortest, physically, but if you took the easy route it may have alot more running involved or a bigger multiple of the smaller obstacles.  ex. you have a choice between a 15ft wallrun, 2 10ft wallruns, or a 100m dash with a vault every 15 or 20m.
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Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 01:15:44 PM »
Oh; definitely. If the area you cordoned off was like a square mile or so (I'm horrible at judging distance; maybe that would be too big or too small?), and all you set up was the starting point and the finish line, the traceurs could determine their own route through. The route they chose would also determine how many touchpoints they'd see and possibly hit on the way. That way each traceur/traceuse could determine the route that best maximized his/her skills.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Skipper

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 02:05:55 PM »
the unfortunate truth to that idea is that a lot of the time, taking the stairs and walkways are somewhat faster in the LONG run. If it is a smaller area, perhaps the line of travel could be strategically places for optimum obstacles and difficulty.... that is unless it is an absolute paradise for traceurs throughout the city! so you may have to make it so they cant take stairs or traditional pathways somehow.

Offline Blarg

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 05:08:07 PM »
I personally don't believe that Pakour and Freerunning should be factored into [the form of] a competition. I mean, cmon, it pleases onlookers. yay. I don't know what it is exactly, but it just doesn't feel right to me...kinda like jumping on a bandwagon feel
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Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 05:17:59 PM »
I personally don't believe that Pakour and Freerunning should be factored into [the form of] a competition. I mean, cmon, it pleases onlookers. yay. I don't know what it is exactly, but it just doesn't feel right to me...kinda like jumping on a bandwagon feel

Erm... *points to Mark's initial post*

I'd like to hear people's ideas on how to make a good competition.

How could you make a competition that actually favored the skills people gain from Parkour Training?

How about Freerunning?


I'm interested in :

Ideas for the course

Ideas for the structure (points, time, etc)

Ideas for team games, or if you feel it should be strictly individual.



I'm not interested in (and will delete from this thread)

"Don't make a competition"

"Parkour is not competitive by nature"

"Trying to make it better is no excuse for having a competition"


If you'd like to talk about those things, please dig up one of the "anti-competition" threads.



I will be making a competition based around Parkour and Freerunning, here is your chance to have constructive input.

;)

Whether or not there should be competition is a very, very old argument (although packed with good food for thought). Please keep this thread focused on what your ideas for competition are, if you're interested in contributing.

:)

Thanks.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Blarg

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 05:46:35 PM »
Sry bout the "no" post, but everyone should have an opinion  :P But, if there were to be a competition, I would support the idea of getting a "complex" part of a city blocked off for this sort of event. And besides, I guess it would bring a lot of people to come to know what we do!
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Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 06:14:01 PM »
No worries, Blarg. You most definitely are entitled to your opinion and should feel free to express it.

The issue was just that you expressed it here, in this thread, when Mark specifically pointed out that this was not the thread for that. There are three or four other threads for that debate here in this forum, if you go back 2 or 3 pages. :)

But we still like ya. ;)

Thanks for weighing in on competition, though.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Donotfeedthemax

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 07:38:46 PM »
I'm thinking that if you sectioned off a section of the city, what would the spectators do? I mean, would you have the audience running behind you? That'd be kinda funny, you see one guy run down the street with a bunch of people running after him eating popcorn and taking pictures. Parkour/Freerunning (more so freerunning) is a very spectatory sport one way, while unfriendly to spactatorism in other ways.

As to taking the traditional path, you could put really big elephants or Giraffes in the way of the traditional routes, and train them to do Kung-Fu on anybody who tries to go that way... or mark the ways off and tell the contestants they aren't allowed to go there... with caution tape and a sign that says "don't go there" or something. ("keep out is too boring or unorigional, though...)

I like Muse's idea about the touchpoints. You could have people sitting around near the point and marking down if you touched it or not, or you could glue a pad of post-it notes on a wall and have the contestants grab a post it note and put it in their pocket, count how many post-it notes they had at the end, something like that. I think showing the contestants the touch points before the race or whatever would be better.

If you didn't section off a city, though, you could find a parking garage or halfway built building with a bunch of floors and have a bunch of obstacles on that particular floor, they need to get past them to get to the next level... Of course, I kinda like sectioning off a section of whatever to reduce the non-linear ness of it, that you don't have to go in a certain, pre-defined path.

Maybe if you had a parking garage or half-built building you could just put all the contestants at the bottom of it and say, meet you at the top, find the touchpoint on each level. And have a bunch of obstacles in the garage/building, putting the touchpoints high up on walls, on the underside of stairs, on the outside of the garage or something...

Safety would be an issue, but I can't think of anything to make stuff that's safe. I'd just put a bunch of pillows on the ground and say be careful.

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 08:05:00 PM »

As to taking the traditional path, you could put really big elephants or Giraffes in the way of the traditional routes, and train them to do Kung-Fu on anybody who tries to go that way...

This cracked me up. :D +1 for making me smile.

As to the spectators: it would be like a long bike race or triathlon; people would station themselves along the route, wherever, and would wait until competitors came their way. This is especially true for things like the Tour de France: it's impossible for spectators to be all the way along the route, but they gather near hotspots to at least catch a glimpse of the action when and if it unfolds near them. That said; traceurs would likely be all over; not just confined to streets/sidewalks. The spectators might actually get in the competitors' way. So that would be a problem.

The spectators might actually be in the way.

You could also put cameras around in the competition zone; and have large screens outside the zone, for spectators to watch; especially if it was televised. They do this all over Europe (and I imagine in other places too) during things like the World Cup.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 08:06:51 PM by Muse_of_Fire »
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 09:35:56 PM »
I'm guessing that since this will be partially supported by corporate sponsors they will want things done in the way that gets them the most publicity.  I think the best way for that to happen would be to just have a parking lot empty and put up a bunch of obstacles sort of ninja warrior style.  I think cordoning off a section of the city this early in the game is simply way to optimistic.  I think that something like capture the flag (teams) would be friggin sick and if there were a free running competition well, I think Skynative just wouldn't really have any competition, however I would compete.  Why you ask would I compete if I knew I had no chance of winning?  Because its fun!!! yay

Offline Leodus

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 10:11:03 PM »
You could have different events...

Ex.

-Roof to Roof- "It would be judged upon the best form..."

-Vaults- "Most creativity"

-FLIPS!!! And putting tricks together into like combo's-

And timed events with set obstacles...

Those are my ideas!

Now take them and critique away.

Hope I helped.  ;D

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 03:05:54 AM »
Thanks guys(and Gal!) this is great input!! So far I have to say we've hashed through many of these ideas and have some pros and cons, but I don't want to share them until I see more ideas and more thoughts in a completely unrestricted way. Forget about realistic ... what would THE BEST way to showcase these be, shoot for the moon, and if we have to take it down a notch we will :)
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Offline Leodus

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2007, 06:52:09 AM »
I am a little lost...

What do you mean showcase? Forget realistic?

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Offline SkyNative

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2007, 07:02:18 AM »
Ideas for Competitions:
(Ive mentioned many of these before, but Ill try to put them all together here)

Course: Custom built "obstacle-park/zone" maybe 200ft long, 30ft wide. Laden with many different obstacles designed by traceurs/freerunners. Competitors should get a chance to walk through the course before hand, maybe 5 minutes, as a safety measure.

Events: 1. Individuals skills with adjustable difficulty (Kong-precision distance, underbar thickness etc.)
2. "Parkour Skills Comp" which is a timed run across the park.
3. "Freerunning Skills Comp" which is a judged run across the park.
4. Fitness tests? talk to Gear

Padding/Safety: No padding on the obstacles themselves except the ground which might be about the same hardness as grass. If they choose, competitors can wear minimal padding on themselves such as thin (.5"?) sheets of pad over the shoulders, hips, shins and knees. Id rather not see helmets. They would be too impeding. My reasoning is that there needs to be some minimal safety in place especially because of the nature of competition. However, putting pads on all the obstacles, in my opinion, would attract more of the "gym-rats" who can do amazing things in a gym where everything is padded, but never go outside and train. Also it'd be a good idea for safety to have a maximum height of maybe 3 stories. (Presumably they would be jumping from this to something else high up, not straight down from that high.)

Judging: -Parkour should be strictly time-based but the course will be designed such that one cannot just go around things. Maybe include the idea of check-points along the way as mentioned before.
-Freerunning is more complicated since it has to be judged somewhat subjectively. I propose something like the 10 point system where the run gets one final point value 1-10 at the end. This score should be the average of several "fields" that they are judged on, each getting its own 1-10 value.
1. Time- (This should still be a factor so much that a simple fast run through the course can compete with a moderately skilled freerun. This is to avoid trickers simply walking from one thing to the next, flipping off it, or tricking off a wall, climbing back up, flipping off again, etc.)
2. Safety/Control- (In the interest of safety, the freerunners apparent control or "form" should have some influence. IE, solid landings, no flailing)
3. Skill Difficulty- (Pretty straightforward, gainer gets more Pts than a backflip. But rather than having a different value for each trick, the judge simply can adjust this value throughout the run as a kind of overall skill judgment)
4. Fluidity- (These last two are a bit more ambiguous but I'm sure most traceurs/freerunners can tell how fluid a run is, or how well the runner connects one move to the next.)
5. Creativity- (These are points for originality of skills and creativity using the objects.)
-So once again, each fields gets a 1-10 value, then at the end, these are averaged and a final 1-10 Pt value given to the run as a whole.

Presentation: Competition events should include both non-competitive exhibitions, as well as on-site training classes for general public. Prizes could be basically a monetary amount that is donated to a charity chosen by the winner. (The monetary compensation for winning would be from the sponsors) Hopefully this will keep the competition a bit more light-hearted. Also we should be conscious of how the comps are being advertised on TV and make sure its not so much about "insane daredevils leaping buildings and shit!!" and just more about the discipline. Perhaps include an interlude during the intro or in the middle to briefly explain both parkour and freerunning, and that the competition is just about the skills from these.

League: Im not sure if it would be better to have teams or individuals in terms of rivalry. It feels like if there are teams based on the different countries (UK, France, US) there would be way too much rivalry and animosity, so I think it's better to have some appointed "team captains" that then hold their own "auditions" for team members from all over the world. Ultimately the choosing of the members is up to the captain, not a certain ability level so that even if there's someone really talented, they can be refused if they are an a-hole. This still creates the problem, though, that if this persons exists, SOME team will want them despite that, for their skill. Again we should downplay winning a bit compared to other sports.

Counterpoint's:
Quote
The touchpoints are there to sort of "force" a competitor to (a) have her "parkour eyes" open, and (b) to use a variety of skills.
I really like this idea of hidden checkpoints for the parkour comp. Makes it much more interesting and still parkour-authentic.

Quote
I'm guessing that since this will be partially supported by corporate sponsors they will want things done in the way that gets them the most publicity....Skynative just wouldn't really have any competition...

No, and no. :-) If something is important to us, then we will have the say. The most sponsors might influence is how its advertised and some random billboards in the background. This open to all traceurs and freerunners in the world, not just the US or America. I do really like your idea of a capture the flag game as well. Also we could have many other games on the course such as tag, Lava, and advanced tag, football (ie. Les Fils Du Vent) etc.

I know I'm forgetting some stuff but ill post it in later when I remember.

Offline Leodus

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2007, 07:34:19 AM »
...Also we could have many other games on the course such as tag, Lava, and advanced tag, football (ie. Les Fils Du Vent) etc....

I LOVE THE IDEA!!! TAG!!!

Holy crap...

What about like... A one on one thing...

Catch... ((Tag but stay with me...))
We do like a flag football thing...
Both competitor's start at a line...

One get's a like 10 second head start...

Then we the other is released he must get both flag's off the other body...

Time for those who just cannot catch them...

After the first round is over... They switch positions...

I love the idea!

Sorry... Got random there.

P.S. Since Parkour is trying to escape.... I thought it would be a good idea.

Offline Yixin (pronounced ee-shin)

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2007, 08:08:52 AM »
Safety: My idea for safety is that you put surveillance cameras everywhere all along the course. The footage from the cameras will be reviewed later. Any traceur with bad jumping/rolling form will be penalized (extra time added etc.)

In terms of obstacles, just try to avoid the big drops, and everything should be fine.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Building a Competition
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2007, 02:16:55 PM »
By showcase I mean "utilize and show" ... meaning come up with ideas that require Parkour and freerunning skills, not gymnastic, tricking, martial arts skills.

By "forget realistic" I mean don't limit your thinking to "we could only have one city block" or "it would cost too much to build a whole parkour city" ... meaning froget constraints, just come up with cool ideas, and let me sort out the difficulties that we'll run into. We can always scale an idea down, but some of the best ideas come without restrictions :)
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