Author Topic: Keeping parkour rivarly free  (Read 14896 times)

Offline Rafe

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Keeping parkour rivarly free
« on: May 05, 2007, 11:32:29 PM »
This is simple a post for those who are against competition to see what other communities are considering to prevent competition, if you want to discuss that feel free though there are better forums for it, if you want to continue the argument about whether competition should or should not exist lets keep that in marks thread. Here are Hebertistes thoughts.



"Attention to all people who legitimately oppose the introduction of competition in parkour.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2472154.ece

Quote:

    M2 wrote :

    It is not set yet, we are working on the format.

    I'd personally like to address all three.

    1. Make a challenge of obstacles that can be traversed quickly using basic movements. Competition is "straight time". This is most similar to Parkour, if not identical to Parkour's purpose.

    2. Using the same course ideas, increase some of the obstacles size / range to be gradually increasing in difficulty. Of course paddign / safety measures may be needed to create something where "attempting until failure" can still be safe, IE: failure doesn't = injury.

    3. A format similar to a skateboarding ramp competition, an open multidimensional course where participants can do gymnastic / acrobatic moves combined with the moves common to Parkour (catleaps, tic-tacs, underbars). Contestants would be given a set time (2 minutes?) and be judged by a panel.

    4. A few other ideas that will develop as this goes further, these ideas will be specifically incorporated to foster "team spirit" and comradery VS all out competitive spirit.


    All ideas are welcome.




IMPOSTURE :

The act or instance of engaging in deception under an assumed name or identity.




At some point in parkour "history," actually not long ago, many people in the community were willing to accept and have everyone accept the idea of acrobatics as part of parkour.
Even though the non-utility acrobatic movements are not part of the purpose of parkour, they had their own arguments trying to convince the rest of the community and many conflicts and arguments arose.
One of their arguments was that we had nothing to worry about since we'd remain free to not flip if we didn't want to!
But we simply knew acrobatics was not a part of parkour and at no time could it be accepted as a part of it.
It wasn't about debating the benefits of training acrobatics and the freedom
for anyone to train and perform them.
It was simply to have them understand it wasn't and couldn't be part of parkour, ever. And that they had no right to portray parkour as involving artistic movements and their training as part of the purpose of parkour, since it would obviously affect the image of parkour and the way it is trained.
By strongly standing against, we made it not happen and therefore preserved
the utility and original meaning and essence of parkour.
By doing this we preserved the correct overall perception and image of parkour in the population and in the media.

We stood against and it worked.


We're now facing the same issue.
Many in the parkour community are discussing their own arguments and they're also using the very same argument, telling us we're free to not compete!
Remind you of something?
Just like it wasn't about discussing if acrobatics are good or bad, this is not a discussion about whether competition is good or bad.
Acrobatics are not part of parkour.
Competition is not part of parkour.

I don't need anyone to tell me I am free not to compete. I practice parkour partly because it's a rivalry free discipline. I will not accept a few individuals redefining parkour to suit their goals when it is clear what they are pursuing is contrary to what parkour is.
I want to know that parkour will keep rivalry free.
It is not just a great concern like people thinking parkour includes acrobatics.
It is a MUCH GREATER CONCERN.
It is about our right to preserve parkour from not only being portrayed, but also practiced, in a way that is OPPOSITE to its very essence: which is non-competitive, and rivalry free.

We did not accept the argument that parkour was aesthetically driven as well as utility driven, because one was original and the other was not.
We also cannot accept competition as part of parkour because it is antagonistic to the values of parkour
Because parkour is non-competitive.
Because the practice of similar movements but for a different purpose and with an OPPOSITE mindset must bear a different name.

For many years now I've understood that "fighting" FOR the reality you want is always much better than fighting AGAINST the reality you dislike.
So far, the parkour community has affirmed that parkour is non-competitive, but probably not enough, because there seemed to be no actual threat so far. There is clearly a threat now, it was stated and affirmed, by two commercial websites which are APK and UFF.
Sometimes it's good, and simply necessary, to say NO. In order to fight FOR the reality you want and the one you have and want to preserve, you need to fight against and show and fierce resistance, NOW and until that threat exists.

A few people, pretending to have a great understanding of parkour, are promoting values that show a total misunderstanding of parkour, and also a true disrespect for the discipline and its practitioners.
If they succeed with their plans, they are going to be responsible for a great DILUTION of parkour. That will create a new community of competitive people illegitimately calling what they do "parkour" simply because they will train the same movements, even though they neither understand nor respect the original ethics.
If they succeed they're going to dilute the original parkour, a rivalry free discipline, into a competitive sport that pushes people to fight against others for the satisfaction of a crowd and the benefits of a few businesspeople.
They also might be responsible for creating a DIVISION in the current parkour community.
The outcome of the current issue will greatly depend on the capacity of the community to resist and again to collectively stand against these plans to modify, alter and hijack the original philosophy of parkour.

"Freestyle parkour" didn't happen.
It's up to us to make sure "competitive parkour" shares the same fate.
We have to act now before it's too late and before the few decide for us all.

Show your opposition whenever and wherever it is possible.
Don't loose time and energy debating about competition itself anymore.
Indeed competition can bring positive as well as negative outcomes, we all know that, so it's not being against any form of competition, but about being against competition in parkour. As for "parkour in competition," it's simply nonsense. Parkour isn't only a set of movements, but training capacities of movement with a rivalry free philosophy.
You can enter any competition and use the physical and mental capacities and condition you got thanks to your parkour training, but as soon as you start competing, your mindset has already left the mindset that parkour demands: rivalry free.
As soon as you want to beat others, parkour ends. That's because parkour is above all about ethics, and an ethics which does not condone rivalry.
It means that any event based on people competing against each other cannot be called parkour.
It also means that someone competing in any kind of competitive event cannot be using "parkour." That person is only using capacities developed through parkour, but not with the mindset that parkour demands.
I do not believe the argument either about how other disciplines or sports
evolved to competition. Parkour is unique. Parkour is non-competitive, it is not even an option, it is part of its very core philosophy to not only be non-competitive, but also to avoid and stand against rivalry.

So my advice and suggestions:

First, don't buy the illusion that it is "inevitable." It is not, but it is what they want you to believe in order to weaken your resistance. They also count on your own curiosity for their future events. If the whole community stands against it, and make it VISIBLE we are against them, it's going to be a very BIG obstacle for those people convincing the media their intentions are accepted or approved by the community they're supposed to be "leaders" of. It will just show that what they do is an imposture, not the real discipline. Sponsors are very reluctant to invest money in events that might be counterproductive in term of advertising.

Second, just OPPOSE the introduction of competition in parkour, just like you opposed the introduction of acrobatics in parkour. Just say no; just tell them you don't want those competitions. Don't get fooled by their rhetoric. Keep in mind it's above all a great way for them to be in a position to be leaders of a commercialized discipline and make money, not to help a genuine community committed to the discipline's original ethics. Competitions and acrobatics can be good, but NOT in parkour, because it opposes what parkour is.
Oppose it wherever and whenever you can on forums, register to express this opposition right on their boards if necessary, and don't let those people promoting competition let people believe it's "ok" because it is not. It is a betrayal of the true nature of parkour.


Third, DEMAND they call their event something other than "parkour," because the movements without the parkour spirit of non-rivalry is simply not parkour anymore and therefore what their sport would be an imposture.

Fourth, make an anti-competition signature of your own, like:
"Keep parkour free of competition"
"Parkour is a rivalry free discipline",
"Competing is not a parkour value"
or such.

Fifth, put a "pro-rivalry FREE" or "anti-parkour competition" announcement on your personal blog or community website.
You can use the one made by TK17 and myself if you wish.
Make it visible everywhere; competition won't be tolerated within the community.

Sixth, they may tell you they don't intend to call their event "parkour" something. I say don't even tolerate the promotion of competitive events, existing or not, on parkour websites. It is the seed of confusion, alteration and dilution of the conception of parkour, and oppose it wherever and whenever you find it.


FORCE them to RESPECT the philosophy of parkour and therefore to respect
you.
There's no negotiation possible with people that pretend to understand
parkour while trying to justify and impose plans that stand against parkours philosophy and therefore stand against the parkour community itself.
Their so-called "freedom" to make parkour competitive is simply thinking
that "parkour is whatever you want it to be."
But there is more: this freedom is denying our own freedom to preserve the rivalry-free philosophy in parkour. Defending the non-competitive essence of parkour is natural and legitimate. It is our freedom. Their "freedom" is just an imposture.
I don't believe they should be free to hijack parkour for their own benefit
by DESTROYING the very essence of parkour.
If they succeed, it will be impossible to seriously teach and spread parkour as non-competitive.
Another kind of practice will spread that may be called parkour, but that won't hold its essence anymore.

One last thing..."imposture" is an act of deception.
Now that they affirmed they do plan competitive events, they're not deceiving us anymore indeed.
But by showing many people parkour is about competing, they engage in a massive act of global deception of all people that don't know parkour yet.
That is an extremely serious issue for parkour.


Yes, I do believe it is as serious as that.

STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT TO KEEP PARKOUR RIVALRY FREE."

Here it he full thread http://parkour.net/parkour/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9539&forum=1 which contains allot of discussion involving some of the well known names in the parkour community for me Danno's posts really hit home.
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Offline Paul Leon Mederos

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 11:57:48 PM »
Rivalry free is the way to go. There should never be any rivalries! Friendly competition FTW!
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Offline Tsumaru

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 11:58:55 PM »
He says that there are core philosophies which say that competition and rivalry cannot be a part of Parkour. Where is this? Where is there an unarguable 'rule' which has a direct implication that competition and rivalry cannot exist in parkour? I've not come across it in my time. Perhaps I'm missing something of the philosophy which is always alluded to and yet rarely discussed. Hell, one could argue that the most efficient road to progress is by having a rival. I'm not referring to official structured competitions here - but as an example; how many people have played, or talked about, the idea of the game tag? This is a competition, albeit on a very fundamental level. With what is being said in that post, such friendly games are, quite literally, no longer Parkour. Are people aware of this?


DISCLAIMER: Don't jump down my throat about this or that without paying attention to these next two points quite carefully...
1. I am completely against official structured competitions. However, friendly rivalry has always played a big part in my progression in certain hobbies of mine; especially martial arts and Parkour when I first began. This is my viewpoint. Friends should feel free to train how they want to train, using their own little competitive games or not. However, official competitions are not a good thing in my mind.
2. I have not been around for as long as many other people, and I have not been so in-depth with discussions on the supposed philosophies and core teachings of Parkour and whatnot. I don't like parkour.net and I don't like a lot of other sites and forums where such things may exist in great abounds. If there is an undeniable facet of Parkour which suggests competition and rivalry cannot exist, please just teach me about it politely, and don't start screaming about how I'm an ignorant n00b or something. Thankyou.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 04:37:18 AM »
Why is this thread different than the other one?

I don't mind, but I also don't want to end up with 5 different threads for the same topic, any topic.

As for Parkour being "Rivalry Free"  ... that's a HUGE JOKE!! For anyone who doesn't know, Parkour.NET was FOUNDED by people who were kicked off UF! Parkour.net was setup as arivalry :)

If you can show me one thread on there where someone has tried to be constructive toward me, I'll change my statement.


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Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2007, 05:16:48 AM »
Thats true. Theyve kind of created their own rivalry towards mark.... whereas mark has done absolutely nothing towards them personally except for defend his points LOL. Kind of puts into perspective who stands strong and who its just constantly looking for a fight.


Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2007, 11:27:30 AM »
a person who is competing for the same object or goal as another, or who tries to equal or outdo another; competitor.
2.   a person or thing that is in a position to dispute another's preeminence or superiority: a stadium without a rival.
3.   Obsolete. a companion in duty.
–adjective
4.   competing or standing in rivalry: rival suitors; rival businesses.
–verb (used with object)
5.   to compete with in rivalry: strive to win from, equal, or outdo.
6.   to prove to be a worthy rival of: He soon rivaled the others in skill.
7.   to equal (something) as if in carrying on a rivalry: The Hudson rivals any European river in beauty.

OH NOOOOS SAVE ME FROM THE BIG BAD RIVALRY.  Seriously I don't see a single negative thing about rivalry there.

Offline UR34N

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2007, 12:00:48 PM »
Parkour has NEVER been rivalry free. Fact! Since day one the originators have all been fighting and competing against each other.

The thing that a lot of people fail to see is that Parkour has now grown into a beast that is far far bigger than the internet.

Also, with the discipline growing to such a level, there are now serious players stepping up to offer huge financial backing. When it gets the the point where you have $20K prize money on offer, we'll see all sorts of people crawling out of the woodwork to be involved.

That said, who said anything about a 'Parkour' competition?!

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2007, 12:57:28 PM »
i agree with tsumaru: where's the evidence stating that parkour must be rivalry-free?  has david belle explicitly stated that it must be?  and what's their definition of "rivalry" and "competition"?

Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2007, 01:22:08 PM »
Isnt running from a mugger a competition. Its definitely a race, and you both definitely have goals. Get away, you win, they catch you and rob you, they win.

Its hilarious how this is turning into a HUGE protest. they are only making themselves look ridiculous. It may take more than hundreds of people with anti-competition banners in their profile to stop any acting momentum, and I have little faith that any action other than complaining may come of it. But that is what is needed.

im not trying to be mean to people orchestrating this ordeal, nor am I poo pooing their efforts, its just, if you want something done, you kinda have to do it yourself, rather than complaining about it until someone else does it.

Hmm, the World PK championship got about HALF as much protest as this is.... could it have anything to do with... hmm... AMERICA????? Perhaps a general disliking towards americans on a global basis has some play in how much they shit on the idea. I think its a bit childish.... no.... elitist.


Quote
We don't believe in elites.
We don't believe in any form of selection among practitioners.
We don't believe in the necessity of any form of hierarchy of performance among practitioners.
We believe to be "the best" doesn't mean anything in parkour, because winning or losing don't mean anything in parkour philosophy.
We do not accept such a drive as part of the parkour philosophy.

How come .NET sees them selves as such an authority, almost as if they are better than everyone else?... theyve been doing it for years.
They may not believe in the PHYSICAL selection among practitioners.... but they do make it a point to isolate the ones they dislike, instead of accepting any ideas different from their own.
Hierarchy of performance among practitioners.... when was the last time that little rating of posts and rank on the left of the post had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the post itself. It could be a very well thought out post, but god help you if they dont know you to be a strong practitioner of the art before making a post like that.

We all have our off-shoots of these supposed "rules." Some more than others.... the difference lies in if you accept that you are competing already in parkour... every time you train. .NET stands strong on the notion that they are completely blind to that.


And isnt creating a campaign against the competition, a competition in itself?

Offline bigninjapimp

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2007, 04:33:30 PM »
give hebertist a break about the use of "rivalry", he's french and his english is a little weird somtimes.

Also I respect anyone who trys to protect somthing they love and belive in, instead of just sit there.

Also skipper, what else realistically can they do besides voice themselves on the internet? It's not like they can fly around and tell everyone in person their veiws....

Offline blackhat

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2007, 04:52:34 PM »
"Isnt running from a mugger a competition. Its definitely a race, and you both definitely have goals. Get away, you win, they catch you and rob you, they win."

In the vernacular sense of "competition," which is the only sense of the word being debated, that is not competition. It's interesting that even people as far away as Europe understand the sense of the word "competition" to mean, primarily, "organized competitions" that we see from sports teams on television, while competition apologists nit-pick with semantics to lessen the validity of the issue.

"But that is what is needed."
Agreed.

"World PK championship"
You can see the reasons for the lack of protests in Danno's post, here:
http://parkour.net/parkour/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=139556#forumpost139556
In any case, the lack of protest at that time does not lend credence to competition, nor is the issue of "elitism" by anti-americanism anything but obfuscation of the topic at hand.

"almost as if they are better than everyone else"
Almost as if you're making things up!

"when was the last time that little rating of posts and rank on the left of the post had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the post itself"
This is a problem, but is well engrained in forums across the web. If anything, the number of posts gives one indication of the credibility of the poster. In an environment where one is "talking" into a monitor, establishing trust is based on many puzzle pieces.

"god help you if they dont know you to be a strong practitioner of the art"
And if someone on the APK forums with no known history starts spouting off on the best technique or exercise routine? Yes, that's an extreme example to match your extreme indictment. But I think we know that that kind of forum issue is not all black and white.

"the difference lies in if you accept that you are competing already in parkour"
Maybe this would be easier communicated if you put "rivalry" (the topic of this thread) in place of "competition." Are you engaging in a rivalry every time you train?

"And isnt creating a campaign against the competition, a competition in itself"
Obfuscation again. No, it isn't. If you want to stretch the definition of "competition" like it's the Constitution then you're missing the point. This argument isn't about who can come up with the most inane arguments against competition by means of semantic obscurity. You can't argue against an anti-competition, anti-rivalry movement if you aren't sticking to what most people, again, even those .NET folks across the ocean, think of as competition.

Stop obscuring the issue by pretending you don't know what we mean. It's stated pretty clearly in the first post.

Offline Bachelarius

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2007, 05:26:51 PM »
Lol at people comparing parkour to internet bickering... Guys, parkour IS meant to be rivalry free. I did a basic rundown of the reasons why in the other thread.

Just because people argue and disagree it does not mean that they train to be competative. .NET 'segregates' people and 'does not accept differing points of view' because many of their members have a better view on things than the people who propose these ideas. They have talked to the founders and found out about the core concepts of the discipline, and have been able to compare the philosophies of parkour to the philosophies of the proposition. Clash = proposition is inaccurate. Simple really lol. Erwan (guy whose posts are quoted) is DEFINITELY one of these people, considering he is basically the closest thing to an authority on the father-discipline of parkour, which the entire parkour community has. So I wouldn't cast his words aside too lightly...

And lastly, Skipper, you know I respect you, but please don't turn this into a race thing. The reason why the parcouring tournament wasn't so hated was because the word 'parcours' came before the word 'parkour'. In fact, it was the word that parkour was based upon. Parcouring was (apparently) based on that word, not on 'parkour'. It is just a glorified hurdle track.
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 07:40:56 PM »
Ill give you that. And what I said wasnt really aimed anywhere, just pent up frustration. Everytime I look at .NET, I have to sift through Anti-America threads, and why We hate americans, etc.
What I was getting at, is if its worth fighting for in your eyes, fight for it. Im not bluntly saying stop bitching and let this happen, but I would like to see something more thought out than a massive 20 page thread about how it should be stopped. I dont have time to read all of that, but I do have time to applaud innovation and creative thinking.

"almost as if they are better than everyone else"
Almost as if you're making things up!"

Thats coming from personal experience, I stopped posting there because I got tired of pretending like I needed to put people down in order to be taken seriously. The second I tried defending someone with a skewed idea, I became the one being made fun of. As if you have to rip apart someone in order to be accepted.... but thats how it came off to me personally. could be different.

"Stop obscuring the issue by pretending you don't know what we mean"
Things like this start to get to me. What WE mean. we as in you represent .net, we as in we are different from you and have different views.... this is where I get the idea that people are putting themselves on a different level WITHOUT competition.

Im at a point in my life where I just think... you know, everyone just needs to settle down. Im not saying dont fight for what you want to happen, but civility goes a long way... and in this case, it separates someone from the hundreds of people bitching and moaning about stuff like 4 year olds.

and My point still stands that rivalries have already been established. But none of these issues are nearly as serious as internet forums make them out to be. I mean, I dont see myself as having any rivalries, and I hope that people dont see me as a rivalry. I wont ever treat anyone with that kind of disrespect in a field of activity that I am so in love with. But there are some out there that just LIVE for creating these differences and creating that kind of clash..... thats what gets me wound up.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 07:44:12 PM by Skipper »

Offline Yixin (pronounced ee-shin)

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 08:46:27 PM »
Please, for f#ck's sake, just treat one another with respect. What's with the anti-Americanism at the .net anyway? Keep the f#cking politics, xenophobia and chauvinism out of this, leave that to the politicians. Parkour is something that should bring people of all shapes and sizes from every area of the world together. Whatever the issue is, it shouldn't tear us apart. It shouldn't result in bitterness, it shouldn't result in hatred, rivalries and permanent resentment.

Yes competition is a contentious issue. Yes, you might just think all Americans are redneck pigs. Yes, you might think the world revolves around you and your opinion and your philosophy.

But please, just drop it. We are all Traceurs, we all practice Parkour (or Freerunning, or Tricking, or whatever). If there are any issues, they can be worked out without any bitterness, or resentment. And since we'll still all have divergent opinions and beliefs, we can at least show some f#cking respect when dealing with each other.

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Offline blackhat

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 09:04:36 PM »
Using "we" was not the right thing to do. I thought about it but forgot to change it to something closer to the truth. I can only presume to represent myself in this case, and I'm sorry I came across as "isolationist" or whatever.

I meant, though, that "we" can mean the other side of the debate. Just because two people have different views doesn't put them on different levels, right?

"none of these issues are nearly as serious as internet forums make them out to be"
Maybe not - I certainly hope not. It's certainly easier to build hype on the internet than face-to-face. Some of these forum posts are token disagreements - just for the sake of having disagreed - in hopes that someone, somewhere, is going to change the way things are done. And given the general solidarity of the community, anything is possible.

"civility"
Some of my comments were mean, if you're referring to my post. But I was irritated with what I thought was "avoiding the issue."

"We" all know that most of these issues drop when we actually go out for a session. But, all of us posting here have (to some extent) enough time on our hands to waste on talking about this, so we might as well get to the bottom of it. It ends up that some people fight for something they think is greater than themselves, their spots, whatever.

And maybe rivalries have been established on the parkour "geopolitical" scale. But maybe that's because of the very issue we're discussing?

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2007, 10:06:57 PM »
Nice post Blackhat. Your points are well taken.
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Offline Tsumaru

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2007, 10:31:39 PM »
Someone commented that our arguments should all be disregarded because Erwan is French and his English is a bit wierd sometimes. Reading through the post again and again, I see nothing but somebody who is really quite confident in the language. If he meant "official competitions" by "rivalry", then his post doesn't make sense. I believe he meant exactly, or at least quite similar to, what he said. Hell, he even knew the word "imposture" which I hadn't heard of - though I like to pride myself in my vocabulary. I thought he was misspelling "imposter", but dictionary.com corrected me on that.

Note this:
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It is about our right to preserve parkour from not only being portrayed, but also practiced, in a way that is OPPOSITE to its very essence: which is non-competitive, and rivalry free.
He has used both "rivalry free" and "non-competitive". This indicates that he is aware of the distinct meanings of both of them.
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As soon as you want to beat others, parkour ends. That's because parkour is above all about ethics, and an ethics which does not condone rivalry.
This is clearly talking about the English word rivalry, and not "official competitions".

Now, I reiterate...
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Parkour is non-competitive, it is not even an option, it is part of its very core philosophy to not only be non-competitive, but also to avoid and stand against rivalry.
Since when? Let me quote my first post again, and perhaps we can address this issue.

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He says that there are core philosophies which say that competition and rivalry cannot be a part of Parkour. Where is this? Where is there an unarguable 'rule' which has a direct implication that competition and rivalry cannot exist in parkour? I've not come across it in my time. Perhaps I'm missing something of the philosophy which is always alluded to and yet rarely discussed. Hell, one could argue that the most efficient road to progress is by having a rival. I'm not referring to official structured competitions here - but as an example; how many people have played, or talked about, the idea of the game tag? This is a competition, albeit on a very fundamental level. With what is being said in that post, such friendly games are, quite literally, no longer Parkour. Are people aware of this?


DISCLAIMER: Don't jump down my throat about this or that without paying attention to these next two points quite carefully...
1. I am completely against official structured competitions. However, friendly rivalry has always played a big part in my progression in certain hobbies of mine; especially martial arts and Parkour when I first began. This is my viewpoint. Friends should feel free to train how they want to train, using their own little competitive games or not. However, official competitions are not a good thing in my mind.
2. I have not been around for as long as many other people, and I have not been so in-depth with discussions on the supposed philosophies and core teachings of Parkour and whatnot. I don't like parkour.net and I don't like a lot of other sites and forums where such things may exist in great abounds. If there is an undeniable facet of Parkour which suggests competition and rivalry cannot exist, please just teach me about it politely, and don't start screaming about how I'm an ignorant n00b or something. Thankyou.

Not only does he say Parkour is competition-free, but he asserts that there is a "core philosophy" which says you have to "stand against rivalry". This is new to me and I'd like to hear more about this - especially where he came across it, and how it fits into the other philosophies of Parkour as a congruent whole. Again, I'm not saying he's wrong, but he really has to me just jumped out of nowhere and started talking about something extremely fundamental and yet I've never heard of before. I could be the only one who is ignorant of this philosophy though?

Offline Rafe

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2007, 10:52:44 PM »
Tsumaru go ask him on .net he will respond there I think the answer is important.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2007, 04:55:04 AM »
Faeclind, I'm a big fan of "The Prophet" ... when my sister got married, I gave them a nicely framed version of "Love" from it, they had wanted it as a reading in their wedding, but due to silly religious reasons it wasn't allowed.

I couldn't help but notice this in your signature,

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You can not teach a man aught but what is in his own soul waiting to be revealed.

because it is the basis of one of the strongest arguments against competition, yet it is something I personally believe -

Competition does not create competitiors, or assholes, or monsters and it does not inherently foster bad behaviour and a lack of comradery.


This seems to be people's greatest fear that they can actually express, the only other "valid" argument against competition seems to be "Parkour is not competitive - because it is friendly and helpful by nature" ... which again, to me, wouldn't be harmed by competition, it can only be harmed by people's attitudes.

I welcome all constructive comments to this, what I don't need to hear is;
 "David Belle said" -
 "It is a core part of Parkour" (still yet to be shown by anyone)
 "the goal of competition is to win so if I compete I can't be nice or helpful" ... those are human traits, if soeone can't be, then THEY shouldn't compete. I agree completely. :)
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2007, 05:34:31 AM »
Ive always believed that the biggest fear people have with competition is the attitudes that will come of it. I mean, that is every argument against competition that I have heard to date. Is it not allowed to be friendly? That notion just assumes the worse, but what if this amount of friendly competition actually improves the overall image of parkour?? Isnt that the cause that EVERYONE has been fighting for in the years prior?
All im putting forward is, why does all competition have to be rivalry-plagued, snotty competition? Im not saying look at the best case scenario only, but just dont put 100% focus on the WORST case scenario.