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Messages - like_a_child

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41
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Parkour as a Nuisance
« on: July 20, 2007, 07:05:00 PM »
Imagine a future when everyone walks. If you jog, because you're late to work . . . well, running is only for the designated exercise centers, and engaging in that sort of dangerous activity outside the approved "tracks" is criminal negligence ;)

You raise a good point, but I think that people will be a lot less open-minded and accepting of Parkour.

I should've tried to pick an activity (for that analogy) which wasn't justifiable as a common form of exercise, just to keep fit (for health). The idea in my mind was to show how people can take something which is only useful if it can be available in any location, when you need it - and if you can't jog to make it to work on time, because everyone would be more accident-prone and collisions at your relative speed would be more dangerous, why even bother to train it in the first place?

42
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Parkour as a Nuisance
« on: July 20, 2007, 03:43:13 PM »
Imagine a future when everyone walks. If you jog, because you're late to work . . . well, running is only for the designated exercise centers, and engaging in that sort of dangerous activity outside the approved "tracks" is criminal negligence ;)

43
Are you imagining a chase scenerio? Or a "I have to get to X location as fast as possible" ?

The latter; by "really chasing you" I meant the deliberate intention to run you down. Just moving forward, with speed, should prevent situations where someone accidentally runs into you from behind (and you can't see them coming), either because you're pausing for a moment or they're just moving at a good pace themselves.

44
If you move fast and keep moving, noone can come up from behind unless they're really chasing you (or they come in from the side :(), so if there are enough openings in the crowd you may be able to eventually get where you're going, but it's entirely dependent on the chaos of their movement. Oh, and of course, there's still the chance that a small cluster of people will form and box you in completely >:(

45
I usually focus more on safety than speed . . . preferring to wait until an area clears out before trying to cross through it. But when I have to, these are the basic tactics:

1) Scan ahead and locate/identify "waypoints" in the area. These should be not only inanimate, but preferably immovable as well. (A wall is good; a line of police tape, not.) When you put your back to one of these, you should be able to see people coming from all directions, in time to foil their approach with your hands. So, they should also be wide (lightpoles don't protect you from people coming up from behind, and brushing past you as they narrowly skirt the pole), and tall (a utility box may be solid, but it won't protect you from someone who trips and falls over it).

2) Plan out the next leg of your journey in advance, then, only commit yourself when you have a clear opening along the entire path. You don't need to have your entire route through the area open (or even known, if you don't move anywhere you can't backtrack from if you find yourself at a dead end), you just need to make sure you don't get caught out in the open, surrounded on all sides, and then swept away by/in the crowd. Take into account general trends of movement, and your own travel time, but don't rely on spaces opening up by the time you get there - rather, anticipate what might happen if they blocked your path by the time you got there.

Working with both of these together, the overall strategy is to make your way from waypoint to waypoint, waiting for openings and then making a mad dash for the next bulwark. This approach emphasizes safety over speed, and does so primarily through collision avoidance rather than recovery from unintended collisions.

Incorporating parkour into this would expand options to include not just finding cover to hide behind, but shimmying up a light pole to stay outside of the crowd's movement pathways. This is a highly exposed position, and usually not recommended (not just because it permits mischievous kids to throw things at you from behind, but because it limits your mobility), but does keep people from accidentally running into you. A somewhat better option would be to ascend a wall only partially, and remain aloft, staying out of the way but being prepared to drop back down at a moment's notice. Both of these prevent you from being casually crushed by the rampaging mass of flesh, though the latter restricts mobility even more severely than the former (at least on the light pole you can climb up and down, and rotate to face whoever is throwing things at you), and you should definitely keep an eye out for better positions (preferably combining mobility with the ability to see whatever's coming your way).

46
This came up in another thread . . . to quickly sum up the reasoning, cities have many obstacles, and not all of them are inanimate. One of the characteristics of a city is the high(er) population density, which may result in crowds. Setting aside for a moment the reaction of "People are obstacles? That's cold. People aren't objects.", how would you make your way through a group of other people as an extension of parkour? What ways can you think of to train yourself and other traceurs to move together? Which qualities do you see as being especially helpful for this? (Coordination, etc.)

47
FAQ / Re: What shoes should I wear for Parkour?
« on: July 19, 2007, 12:57:32 PM »
Post questions and suggestions about shoes here. Everybody has a different opinion, but some important points:
1.) The shoe should be hella' durable. We obviously abuse our shoes a lot, so they have to be designed to take a bit of punishment.

About what shoes to "wear for Parkour"; since my regular shoes recently wore out (and I haven't been using different shoes to train), I've been looking for a pair to replace them. It seemed like a good opportunity to make sure they were good for Parkour, too. But it's important to not think about these shoes as "for Parkour" in the sense that we wear one pair regularly (for the long term, to not wear out) and our PK shoes when we know in advance that we're going to train. I can see where certain differences might allow for this separation (if they both had good grip, etcetera, and if whenever you needed to use Parkour in your regular shoes there would be plenty of time to replace them), but mentally we should be ready at all times, not letting our shoes tell us when it is possible to use Parkour and when not.

48
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 19, 2007, 07:26:59 AM »
Therefore 20 traceurs together jamming, will not have decreased mobility because of the similiarity of mindset for the pure reason that they are moving in the away from the same point of danger therefore their field of vision increases. 

This was a quick write, so if something is unclear, I can clarify

I understand the idea, I'm just a bit iffy about it working . . . I think that keeping a strong focus on philosophy (to ensure that parkour does keep us mindful of this), along with - perhaps - adding a more concrete "movement in crowds" area to parkour (as Nik suggested) would help too.

I wasn't sure about that idea, either, at first - but population density is lower if we spread out across available terrain, and when people (as they tend to) cluster together, you get more people in the same area. So, if I think about it that way, crowds are actually characteristic of cities - and they should be anticipated, and trained for just as any other obstacles.

49
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 19, 2007, 12:08:26 AM »
I think parkour may be one of those activities where popularity inevitably leads to hurting its reputation . . . imagine 20% of the population constantly (on a daily basis) running around, leaping, cavorting, etc.; there would be much higher chances of committing yourself to a movement, only to find out that someone else had just committed themself to a movement going through the same area at approximately the same time.

I've been thinking about this some more, and it occurs to me that coming up with a way to "keep the streets safe" for traceurs from traceurs (not to imply malicious intent - accidents do happen) would be a very good thing to come up with before parkour becomes widely practiced. All it takes is one or two crashes and people will be wanting to regiment parkour, tell everyone that they must join a regular group to "jam" together with, or avoid "high-risk spots" where two traceurs might potentially have an accident, or designate certain times of the day to be "for parkour" to cut down on "spontaneous practice" as the leading cause of collisions. I'd say some things about why this would be bad, but there are so many reasons that I don't have time to list them all before I retire for the evening. (Night?) (Wee hours of the morning?) (Whatever.) I'd rather miss them all than give the impression that I missed some of them :-X

50
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 18, 2007, 10:28:07 PM »
Well, regarding difficulty for the sake of difficulty, doesn't that define parkour training? I mean how many of us practice running in a straight line and refer to that as our primary parkour training?
I'd say instead we train the most difficult route, so that whatever route is available is easier than whatever we train.

I was asking you about the route taken when we're not training, though - yes, we train for the worst, but isn't it still advisable to select for optimum routes and favourable conditions when we need to do it for real? I was speaking about parkour, not training for it ;)

I think child, that your subject and your argument are two different things. Catastrophe caused by a jam of 20 traceurs isn't at all bad for parkour. Its bad for the traceurs, i guess, but it doesnt damage the discipline's integrity or anything important like that. Parkour isn't damaged by that scenario, unlikely as it is.

I wasn't making any sort of case for how jams are bad for the parkour community (as Travis Noble noted the absence of), though I am in agreement with him that it would be an interesting piece. Nor for how parkour's reputation is damaged by the event (although, since you brought it up, I will devote a paragraph to it below). Simply and quite literally that it is bad for parkour itself when we need to use those skills while around many other people who have exactly the same idea in mind. Being all alone would be good for parkour, i.e.: zero chance of collisions. Being in any sort of crowd, as Nik noted, has the same effect; but when it's a gathering of people whose skills usually enable exactly the opposite, this is particularly ironic and noteworthy.

I think parkour may be one of those activities where popularity inevitably leads to hurting its reputation . . . imagine 20% of the population constantly (on a daily basis) running around, leaping, cavorting, etc.; there would be much higher chances of committing yourself to a movement, only to find out that someone else had just committed themself to a movement going through the same area at approximately the same time. How efficient is it to use parkour when you may have to abort frequently? How dangerous is it, considering you may not even be able to?

In a normal crowd, escaping through normal means puts you on equal footing with the rest of the crowd - for danger, risk of being trampled, and so on. But if you can use parkour to escape (and let's say that someone just yelled "Bomb!" and everyone is in the grip of panic, you can't afford to find a safe hiding place and wait it out in case the bomb threat is real, but if you join the fleeing mob you may easily get crushed or run over by said mob), you can be virtually assured of avoiding collisions. Why? Because none of the normal people in that crowd are going to be using parkour.

This changes as parkour becomes more widely used. Gradually, the odds of at least one other person in that crowd being a traceur go from "so small as to effectively not exist" to "the possibility should at least be entertained". Even putting reputation aside (and by "reputation", I mean "how groups of people (plural) perceive it"), the wisest option might very well be to take our chances with the mob, because potential injuries with parkour could be so much worse. This is not good for "parkour", in the individual sense of any of us actually using it ;)

51
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 18, 2007, 11:32:21 AM »
auh ;) got ya.

Although hehe, if your running from the cops, I dont think your thinking of keeping the other rules/laws as well.

You have a point, but this also falls into what I was asking M2. about regarding "difficulty for the sake of challenge"; when fleeing from the cops, do these outlaw/underground traceurs use parkour just to thumb their figurative noses at the authorities, or revert to regular running so they have the best chance of getting away? ???

52
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 17, 2007, 11:21:18 PM »
Since parkour focuses on "outside of the box" facilitators of bodily movement

I am not going to get into this debate but I would have to say that this is exactly what we dont want to see.  Maybe you just need to think about it a little bit but.  Think about the movement we are doing.  Movement that has been apart of civilization always.

I agree completely, that's why I put it in quotes ;) - it is "outside of the box" for today's traditionally acceptable human movement, but it's not really like that.

We are always in "parkour" thinking of the efficient way to get to things.

I have a mental vision of people fleeing for the doors in a giant stadium with ten-foot walls, and one person looks at the door then says "We'll never get through there, the press of the crowds will crush us if we get too far in and we'll certainly never get through." . . . and then the other person says "It's only ten feet high, give me a boost and then I'll hold out my hand to help pull you up after you do a partial run up it."

That would be a good scene to put in a movie, actually.

Speaking of movies, how does anyone expect to get a good chase scene in them, anyway? I mean, realistically speaking, of course ;)

"Crap, the cops are here! If only the authorities hadn't outlawed parkour! Better run for it! Don't use parkour, it's too slow and awkward!"

I mean . . . are we going to be watching a parkour movie and thinking "This makes no sense, the traceurs should have just run from the cop, they could have gotten away much faster."?

53
Having a team replace hazards for you is unrealistic, unless you have tons of money.

Practically, one or two members of your local group (assuming everyone meets regularly, and the duty can be put on rotation) would take a turn going out ahead of the rest. Then, when you stepped on anything foamlike, you could ask "What did I just step on?" and they'd say "That was a partially broken glass bottle, you probably smashed it, slipped on your side, and lacerated the ankle when it came down.", which would give you an idea of how bad it could have been without putting you out of commission for a few months as you realized how bad it was.

That pretty much sums up my impression of "training with hazards, for hazards", actually. If what you're doing is risky, that training is just asking for those odds to catch up with you. It might actually be safer (in the long run) to leave yourself untrained in those respects, and only attempt it if/when you need to.

I don't have any statistics on this, mind you, it's just my personal preference to not take those chances.

54
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 17, 2007, 11:05:06 PM »
Asa, I think he's responding to Mark's comment about "ideal conditions" for parkour being when you are tired, it's raining, you're hungry; etc.

Yes, that's it. Thank you :)

And there is something to be said for the fact that one has to consider escape routes carefully when in a crowd; whether that crowd is a group of traceurs or a group of "mortals," or a mix of both. However I find the jump from "Training for escape in a group of traceurs requires more presence of mind because risks are increased" to "Jams are bad for parkour" to be a bit of a large jump.

I at first just found it somewhat ironic that these training conditions, which have much to recommend them, directly counter the main advantages (physical movement; "imagine you are running away from a lion", to quote an oft-used example) of parkour, since parkour is not traditionally a "team activity" but rather something we do on our own. Later on, I realized that bumping into each other in mid-air would be unusually dangerous, whereas people usually manage to get up again and resume motion after bumping into each other mid-ground.

I must admit a bit of a personal bias as well: I have a hard time taking seriously people who claim to train parkour for the purposes of being able to escape a dangerous situation.

My operating preference is to avoid (potentially) dangerous situations in the first place, which was perhaps part of the reason I spoke so strongly in favor of "optimal conditions" when engaging in parkour. When younger, I used to move in unusual ways for better response time and to avoid hotspots of multiple risk factors. Today it offers me the opportunity to interact with the world more, but still without exposing myself to a dangerous situation too much.

55
But maybe you could simulate those environments - find something close but not nearly as dangerous.

Do you get bad weather? Train in it. Be careful. Do moves where a botch isn't going to kill you.

This is pretty much my thought on night training - it would be nice to have a team moving ahead of you, scanning the path for real hazards (like broken glass) and replacing them with foam obstacles so you could simulate the risks of a real environment without risking more serious injury when you're just practicing.

Which is, I suppose, better than breaking your leg when you really need to get away, but still.

56
Training Journals / My "workout" these days
« on: July 17, 2007, 01:28:30 PM »
Opening the door, to be greeted by a blast of dry heat from all (forward) directions.

Closing the door.

Where is my freaking cooling vest???

57
How important do you think it is to train and practice in sub-optimal conditions? E.g. tired, headache, fatigue, nausea(wow, this sounds like a weightloss pill :o), bad weather, night, etc.

What are your thoughts? ;)

Anything that actually impairs your concentration, will affect what you learn from the training, since you might not notice something, and you might learn more slowly. So, if you're going to train in sub-optimal conditions, it's important to also train in optimal conditions.

It's important to know how your mind is affected, though, and your body, perceptions etcetera for nighttime and bad weather - so, I think that training should first be in optimal conditions so you know how everything should be working normally, and then experiment to find out how it affects you (how severely and in what ways) under each of those circumstances.

58
Consumer Whores / Re: Shirts.
« on: July 17, 2007, 01:04:48 PM »
I can't personally vouch for them, but I saw some golf shirts while I was looking up shoes, and they looked promising.

59
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 17, 2007, 12:16:26 PM »
I believe a quote from Billy Madison would fit well as a response to that...

Likewise, it could be said that you lack the perception to see what points were valid in that post, the intelligence to formulate a rational rebuttal to it, the wit to say anything clever of your own, the common courtesy to keep your mouth shut when you didn't have anything polite to say, or the courage to stand by what you felt necessary to say.

But don't mistake me; I wouldn't say anything like this. I'd just blame it all on my evil twin. This twin would exist only when it was convenient for me, so I wouldn't have to worry about identity theft, i.e. someone hearing something the evil twin said and falsely attributing it to me ;)

I recommend you re-read the administrators' responses on this thread, and take note of how they managed to be critical and doubtful without also being rude. These stand as excellent examples of how all our posts should be - whether we hide behind another's name for the words we use, or not.

60
Parkour And Freerunning / Re: Why jams are bad for parkour
« on: July 17, 2007, 12:02:24 PM »
The simple fact of the matter is that probably 98% of people who "train" for parkour will never actually directly use their training for a serious situation.

I'm one of those other 2%. I look upon a thoroughfare with maybe a handful of people scattered through it, and I don't see an uncrowded area; I see attack patterns, threat radius, ways different groupings of those people can move to cut off escape routes. (This is one of the reasons I'm in security ;D) This is a serious situation for me, because I can't simply walk through like most others would; I can't wilfully disregard potential danger merely for my own convenience, because there's no way of knowing when that will lead to disaster. I train my instincts to work with me, I don't dismiss them or train myself to ignore them. In situations where the area is crowded, taking five minutes to scale a wall so I can avoid these people entirely is actually faster than trying to move among them.

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