Author Topic: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma  (Read 21444 times)

Offline Alec Furtado

  • kicks butt.
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1961
  • Karma: +27/-6
  • Balance.
    • View Profile
    • SportsBetTech.com
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2008, 01:55:31 PM »
Water conforms to the shape of it's surroundings. Do not be water. Shape your own life.

Offline Jump3rJ0e

  • Guenons
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: +2/-13
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2008, 04:16:25 PM »
sweetest invention on the planet...PAN INTEGRAL..they have it in puerto rico and some places in the states....its completely wheat bread...but tastes exactly like white bread..its a miracle!

Offline Mind Reflections

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Karma: +26/-26
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2008, 03:53:17 PM »
sweetest invention on the planet...PAN INTEGRAL..they have it in puerto rico and some places in the states....its completely wheat bread...but tastes exactly like white bread..its a miracle!

it's still bread though.

Offline Jackson Miller

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Karma: +55/-20
  • Formerly Entity
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2009, 12:46:05 AM »
Question: How does sourdough bread compare to wheat and white?  It looks white... and also just french breads in general.  Are they just as bad as any other white bread?

Offline Dan Elric

  • Ambassador
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +89/-33
  • KITTIES ^^
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2009, 07:42:16 PM »
Quote
it's still bread though.

:)

I've done it guys!  I've officially given up grains!  No more corn, rice, wheat, oats, etc.
I've also noticed I'm not really that hungry at all any more since I have only been eating mostly fruits and vegetables.  Before I would be starved at the period before lunch, but now I don't have a single craving, and I fill up much faster on less.  Hell, for supper today I had three potatoes and a banana and I'm STUFFED.
Quote from: Kendall Ann "Cupcake" Smith
I fight for sketti

Online Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2009, 07:57:41 PM »
Quote
it's still bread though.

:)

I've done it guys!  I've officially given up grains!  No more corn, rice, wheat, oats, etc.
I've also noticed I'm not really that hungry at all any more since I have only been eating mostly fruits and vegetables.  Before I would be starved at the period before lunch, but now I don't have a single craving, and I fill up much faster on less.  Hell, for supper today I had three potatoes and a banana and I'm STUFFED.

lol...i hate to tell you, but you are eating way too many potatoes, in my opinion :P
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline Patrick Yang

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 636
  • Karma: +55/-12
  • Outrunner
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2009, 08:46:35 PM »
Hell, for supper today I had three potatoes and a banana and I'm STUFFED.

Might want some protein and fat to go with that massive amount of carbs…
Training log.
Train hard, eat smart, and act with honor.

Offline Dan Elric

  • Ambassador
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +89/-33
  • KITTIES ^^
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2009, 05:15:31 AM »
I cooked the potatoes in coconut oil and also ate a hard boiled egg and drank a glass of milk not that long after.
But I'll work on not only eating the right foods, but the right balance of them too.  Thanks guys.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 05:21:44 AM by Daniel Kelley »
Quote from: Kendall Ann "Cupcake" Smith
I fight for sketti

Offline KC Parsons

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
  • Karma: +78/-13
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2009, 08:04:22 AM »
Well it doesn't change the fact that you're still eating potatoes lol

Online Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2009, 08:25:12 AM »
3 averaged sized potatoes is over 210 g of carbs....

Thats just shy of full days worth in one sitting, just to give you an idea :P
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline Sat Santokh

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Karma: +132/-32
  • Don't think with your balls, think with your brain
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2009, 01:55:52 PM »
Question: How does sourdough bread compare to wheat and white?  It looks white... and also just french breads in general.  Are they just as bad as any other white bread?

I read that it was better, but i don't remember where or if they backed it up with anything/

Offline KC Parsons

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
  • Karma: +78/-13
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2009, 04:13:01 PM »
3 averaged sized potatoes is over 210 g of carbs....

Thats just shy of full days worth in one sitting, just to give you an idea :P

And from a terrible source.
EXTREMELY high on the GI level, by far one of the worst. Worse insulin response than straight glucose.

And, with that 210g of carb, you only get 22.5 g of protein, and quite sadly only 1.2 g of fat!

Horrible, horrible choice.

(I'm a smidge anti-potato)

Offline Dan Elric

  • Ambassador
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +89/-33
  • KITTIES ^^
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2009, 05:08:27 PM »
3 averaged sized potatoes is over 210 g of carbs....

Thats just shy of full days worth in one sitting, just to give you an idea :P

And from a terrible source.
EXTREMELY high on the GI level, by far one of the worst. Worse insulin response than straight glucose.

And, with that 210g of carb, you only get 22.5 g of protein, and quite sadly only 1.2 g of fat!

Horrible, horrible choice.

(I'm a smidge anti-potato)

You're kiddin'!

No potatoes? D:
I love potatoes  :(

But if becoming the best I can be includes giving up potatoes... Then so be it.

What about sweet potatoes?

Luckily I have discovered quinoa :D
Quote from: Kendall Ann "Cupcake" Smith
I fight for sketti

Offline KC Parsons

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
  • Karma: +78/-13
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2009, 05:44:40 PM »
3 averaged sized potatoes is over 210 g of carbs....

Thats just shy of full days worth in one sitting, just to give you an idea :P

And from a terrible source.
EXTREMELY high on the GI level, by far one of the worst. Worse insulin response than straight glucose.

And, with that 210g of carb, you only get 22.5 g of protein, and quite sadly only 1.2 g of fat!

Horrible, horrible choice.

(I'm a smidge anti-potato)

You're kiddin'!

No potatoes? D:
I love potatoes  :(

But if becoming the best I can be includes giving up potatoes... Then so be it.

What about sweet potatoes?

Luckily I have discovered quinoa :D

Haha, sadly yams, sweet potatoes, and any sort of potato is going to have the same issue.

I personally don't like the taste all that much, so it's easy for me to give them up. But in your case, it'd be more difficult ;P

It's very worth it though. It's a terrible source of food, and it's worse that people generally perceive it as a good food.

Sigh, every day I slowly give up more and more on humanity.

[Except for traceurs, of course. They're the light shining through all the crap]

Online Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2009, 07:03:46 PM »
u can eat potatoes and sweet potatoes -- just in quantities about 1/6 of what you are eating.  One potato is 70g of starchy carbs.  Thats huge man.  If you want to eat that, make it part of your post workout meal...and no more than one (unless u have a beastly metabolism)
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline Dan Elric

  • Ambassador
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Karma: +89/-33
  • KITTIES ^^
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2009, 07:31:33 PM »
So eating a potato after my run would be good then?  It would be good during my long runs (12+ miles).

Also, while on the topic of potatoes.  I've heard they have a natural antibiotic in them.  Is this true?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 07:35:04 PM by Daniel Kelley »
Quote from: Kendall Ann "Cupcake" Smith
I fight for sketti

Offline Patrick Yang

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 636
  • Karma: +55/-12
  • Outrunner
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2009, 07:52:14 PM »
So eating a potato after my run would be good then?  It would be good during my long runs (12+ miles).

If you're craving potatoes, PWO is the best time to have them, though still in small amounts.  It's a good way to replenish your glycogen stores after a workout, but leads to problems with insulin in most other cases.

If I, a Chinese American, can give up rice, you can give up potatoes.
Training log.
Train hard, eat smart, and act with honor.

Offline mospunk

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • Matt M.
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2009, 04:29:02 PM »
Ok guys, I'm catching up on my reading around here, and have been perusing the diet forum during my lunch hour at work.  Here are a couple thoughts:

Sorry terry, marathon runners don't really have different needs as opposed to the rest of us. Due to particular genetics? Sure. Due to the fact they run marathons? No. (if you're talking about carb loading that is).

Most of the energy during extended runs comes from oxidative phosphorylation and at an extended runs the main source of fuel for this is metabolism of fat through B-oxidation. Eating a diet higher in fats and lower in carbs will actually help speed up the process (or rather make it more efficient) for long distance runners to switch over to B-oxidation after starting a run thus making it more sustainable.

p.s. same thing occurs in the tour de france especially by the 3rd day or so.

Steve, do you suggest then that we should replace carbs with fats?  Would fats be better than tubers or beans for fuel considering the toxicity of the latter group?  I completely understand the idea of bread/grains being essentially worthless.  I'm just wondering where we should get our energy then.  What's the lesser of the evils, or are fats not evil at all in this case?  Of course, I don't know that I would group traceurs with marathoners, but I'm curious to hear your feedback.  It seems unlikely that we could get enough calories and fuel from fruits and vegetables for something as strenuous as endurance sports (which I consider Parkour to be, at least in its more pure form).  Prove me wrong?

Another point on all breads is the caloric density...which i believe was mentioned several times in this thread  :-X

Why would u want one little piece of bread when you could have cups and cups of fruits and vegetables for the same amount of calories and get much more micronutrient content?  Makes no sense to me, thats for sure.

Chris, I think this is an easy answer.  One piece of bread is quicker and less to chew than cups and cups of vegetables.  I don't know about you, but that much broccoli would be nauseating, and I love broccoli.  Ultimately, it shows the laziness of most people, even hardcore athletes.
Train safe, play hard, and dream of flight.

Online Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2009, 03:44:51 PM »
Steve, do you suggest then that we should replace carbs with fats?  Would fats be better than tubers or beans for fuel considering the toxicity of the latter group?  I completely understand the idea of bread/grains being essentially worthless.  I'm just wondering where we should get our energy then.  What's the lesser of the evils, or are fats not evil at all in this case?  Of course, I don't know that I would group traceurs with marathoners, but I'm curious to hear your feedback.  It seems unlikely that we could get enough calories and fuel from fruits and vegetables for something as strenuous as endurance sports (which I consider Parkour to be, at least in its more pure form).  Prove me wrong?

Fats are a great alternative to higher carb dieting, especially if you are not an endurance athlete.

Really, a human being needs 0 g carb/day to survive and 50 g/day is a good practical minimum is you function well on a lower carb diet.  If 100 g/day is more practical for some people while keeping the overall carbs low (still only 400 cal/day from carb in this case).

However, endurance athletes SAY they need more carb and if they are carb loading then that is true.  Really, even the best of the best don't carb load even when they think they are.  The recommended intake for "carb-loading" would be 8-10 g/lb a day if you are emptying glycogen stores every day.  Few people ever get this amount -- its way too huge.  However, most people who are "carb loading" eat 3-5g carb/day -- which isn't too far off of what bodybuilders will even consume while putting on weight...they just eat a ton more protein, too.

Its kind of confusion -- i suggest you read this article to clear some things up...
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohdyrates-do-you-need.html

Steve is right though -- no one really *NEEDS* to carb load....its not practical and really your body doesn't need it unless you are totally depleted of all glycogen -- in which case the load would do more good after a competitive even than before.  If your glycogen is totally sapped and you need a true carb load before a super long (e.g. Marathon) event then you probably overdid your post-competition training...


Chris, I think this is an easy answer.  One piece of bread is quicker and less to chew than cups and cups of vegetables.  I don't know about you, but that much broccoli would be nauseating, and I love broccoli.  Ultimately, it shows the laziness of most people, even hardcore athletes.

I think I misrepresented my point.

The point is that you can be more effective at "mindlessly" monitoring calories by cutting out the breads and grains from the diet.  You would get full from eating most vegetables WAY before you start to get negative effects from overly consuming carbohydrates.

Due to our society where low-fat high-carb meals are considered "healthy," the easiest macronutrient to over consume is carbs.  By cutting out the bread its easy to bring someone who is overconsuming carbs back down to a reasonable level of carb intake.

That said, only a few items in anyone's diet (even endurance athletes) should be from refined and/or high GI carb sources, including breads, pastas, and whole grain foods, etc.  There are plenty of "high carb" foods that can be used to "bump up" the overall carb intake, especially in post-workout.

Tubers and beans for example are great sources of carbs in high quantities.  While breads, rices and grains can be used moderately this is something that is hard to control for most people -- especially people in the demographic of this site -- which is why it is good to advise to steer clear of that all together.
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline mospunk

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • Matt M.
    • View Profile
Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2009, 07:46:08 PM »
Chris,

I understand and agree with most of what you're talking about here.  Not a lot of what you posted in your latest reply was new to me, but there's one point that I would like to make, especially on a forum like this, where some less-experienced people may take things at face value or get ideas in their heads without reading in detail. 

Although you tend to be very thorough with all kinds of information, you should be very careful of what you say regarding the 0 carb issue.  True, a person can survive on 0 carbs a day, at least for a while, but that's putting the body into starvation mode, which essentially eats muscle.  This also limits fuel for the brain, which can be quite detrimental, especially if one is in "survival mode."  Even Lyle McDonald said in the article you just quoted, and I quote;

"However, not everyone functions well in ketosis [referring to production of energy from fats as a substitute for glucose, after quitting all carbs, for those here who don't care to research it]. They get brain fuzzed, lethargic and just generally feel awful. Even with weeks of being on a ketogenic diet, they never seem to adapt completely. That’s not a good recipe for long-term adherence to a diet or healthy functioning or training." 

In normal functioning, carbohydrates are the most efficient way to fuel the brain, without causing detriment to other functions of the body.  Looking at just the brain itself, one needs carbohydrates for fuel, amino acids from protein to help with neurotransmitters and brain communication, fatty acids from fats to help with cell specialization for thinking and feeling, and micronutrients from fruits/veggies for antioxidants.  Why force the body to pull the fats away from their normal function to do double-duty for two of the four things mentioned above?  It doesn't make sense in this day and age.  There's no reason to put the body into that state.  McDonald even seems to have the habit in his article of following each mention of 0 carbs with a mention of including a small amount to prevent various negative effects. 

For the record, you did mention in a previous reply in the glucose post; "Really, you only need 0 carbs a day to survive...like, basic survival.  Not good but possible."  Let that be noted here too for the sake of being thorough, as I'm learning to do with you.  :P

For traceurs, we are athletes, and this type of ketogenic diet would be detrimental IMO.  They do have their uses, yes, but not for us here, unless someone is first trying to lose a lot of weight and start from scratch.  From what I've learned (I'd need to do some digging to find my sources from this a long time ago), returning to carbs after ketosis can also be detrimental as well, similar to when Holocaust survivors stormed the allied troops for food, stuffed themselves with bread, and then died on the spot.   That, of course, is extreme and there were other factors at play, but relevant in regard to switching back and forth. One must be careful returning to carbs after a ketogenic diet.  As I mentioned already, extreme positions on diet just don't seem advantageous for most people in our sphere, which is the reason for my post now again. 

As always, keep up the good work and the volumes of great info you've posted here.  I enjoy the discussion and have learned a lot. 


Train safe, play hard, and dream of flight.