Tribe

[Erwan]

Mark, I know that :

You will not harm people.

Obviously.

You could help some young people discover things about how to develop their bodies and minds. Just like surf, yoga or pilates could.
You will offer yourself and some few others the opportunity to make a living out of something they really like.

True. Good for them, and good for you.

Let's keep focused on those positive outcomes.
All other things I see in a next future are pure assumptions after all.


So have fun  ;-)

BTW : I cannot help you in any way. It is your way. Only yourself know what you are doing and why. Good luck.

[Mark Toorock]

Yes Andi, I am a coward, clearly.   PHHHHHHHTTTTT.

I'm sorry, but your cheap words don't bother me, nor do your crappy attempts to drag me into your argument.

Post as PAWA, I don't care who you are or who you say you represent, it doesn't change what I am trying to do which I see as helpful. I stated my goals, you tell me which one is wrong and how.

Oh, then as a PAWA rep tell me how David's world tour is different from using Parkour to generate attention for something that will make money. Otherwise I cna only assume that this is what the tour will do and that someone will benefit in a monetary way, but I don't want to jump to assumptions, so please tell me.

[Brian Belida]

Let's keep focused on those positive outcomes.
All other things I see in a next future are pure assumptions after all.

Just quoting for extra emphasis.

[andi k]

your crappy attempts to drag me into your argument.

mark, stop talking bullshit.

you know what you are saying:  you are saying  "andi you asked a question which's answer will make us look bad in front of the ppl that shall buy our dvds and t-shirts thats why im not going to answer".

but to make it a bit easier for you (easier in the eye of the ppl that read it, harder for you that wants to sell a product):

i want to know, if THE TRIBE will take part in, and setup, parkour competitions.    i want a YES, or a NO, and if you said YES or NO i will not adress this topic anymore, this way we can avoid the 'argument' that you seem so much not want to have.

cu
andi

[gearsighted]

i want to know, if THE TRIBE will take part in, and setup, parkour competitions.

I can't speak for the entire group, as I have only myself to be responsible for, but I can say with complete and utter honesty that I will never take part in or set up Parkour competitions. Period.

[Brian Belida]

i want to know, if THE TRIBE will take part in, and setup, parkour competitions.

I've never been an advocate of parkour competitions, nor have I changed.

[Erwan]

Oh, then as a PAWA rep tell me how David's world tour is different from using Parkour to generate attention for something that will make money. Otherwise I cna only assume that this is what the tour will do and that someone will benefit in a monetary way, but I don't want to jump to assumptions, so please tell me.

I will reply to this Mark, since David talked to me about it.
First off, David doesn't "use" Parkour in the same meaning that you do. David created parkour and embodies parkour, simply because he's living parkour every moment. It is in him, his true essence and behavior. He doesn't use parkour, he does parkour. It is not a lifestlye. It is his life.

Secondly the PAWA tour team (a few talented guys) is not an elite. They are not supposed to represent a specific country scene, nor a website, nor themselves as a team.
They don't care of such nationalistic boundaries or private interests.
They are supposed to be the first group of teachers, especially selected not because they look nice, no that much because they are talented, but before anything because they all understood truely and deeply what parkour is about and are therefore more likely to spread the word and techniques with great faithfullness and understanding.
If you don't know anything about those few guys, it is simply because they don't look for recognition. They don't look for popularity, videos, and websites talking about themselves, they have no blog, no photo of their faces ANYWHERE, despite they're great talent and deidcation. They don't talk, and remain silent. But they DO observe and know whatever is done elsewhere. They are quite aware of the parkour scene. They're preparing for their mission, that will be to educate people, to turely help people. But they have nothing to prove and nothing to sell.

Monetary benefits of this tour could only come from the sales of a DVD. Such benefits would go to PAWA so it can go on in its mission to educate people. It might be not fast enough for you guys, that always want everything right now and then what's next.  So first step of that mission is a DVD to show how can anyplace be used to train parkour and how it is universal. It is an inspiring and educational project, but that is taking lots of time to set up.
Ultimate goal is to set up a "parkour temple" where anyone sufficiently serious and dedicated could come there and train for FREE and really learn to help people.
BTW, no competition will ever be set up. It is contrary to parkour values to compete and to promote any kind of elitism, especially when business and money are associated with it.

So you see no difference between your actions and motives and David's ?

[Mark Toorock]

Erwan: Actually I don't see the difference. I see what you are saying, I see what you THINK my motives are, but I feel you don't have enough basis to judge me on these things.

I still have a day job because I would like to be able to provide for a family, put children through school and give them a suitable life without much difficulty in a financial way. Ask someone who have an ample amount of money what their focus is and ask someone who has inadequate funds what their focus is, one has to worry how to pay the bills, one can concentrate on what they WANT to do.

Aside form that, if it were just me, I would train all day, learning, exploring, exploring and expanding my boundaries and helping to lead other people to do the same thing (you can't show someone their boundaries, only help them find it themselves).

So, I don't "Use" parkour in the way you think I do, I want to live it, I want it to be my life. However I do have the intention of raising a family which does cost money, so if I am to do both, then it does require monetary income.

I will not be a monk in a temple, dedicating my life only to myself and my practice and then helping others, but instead will do that as much as I can while having a family.

Anyone who knows anything about the cost of opening and running a business will know that this is a total loss for me in terms of money, even if the DVD sells 1,000 copies, which I can guaranty it won't. The T-shirts are a total loss for me, and take up my time when I'd rather be training. The website takes my time and money, when I'd rather be training. However, I DO FEEL that these things benefit people, and therefore I do them. I also enjoy them because I feel they benefit people. Otherwise, I could make a stencil and make myself one T-shirt and be done.

Yes, I hope that someday this will be a positive cashflow, just as David and Co must if they want to maintain a parkour gym. One can not eat good intentions or sleep under the comfort of helping others. Definitely colleges do not take good will as payment.

So, while I do feel I understand what you are saying, I don't agree in your assessment that I am so different.

When I did martial arts seriously (now I only "dabble") I was in the dojo 6 days a week for 3 hours a day, I lived it, I taught it, and the school made money form my efforts, and people gained benefits in their life from my efforts.
This is my wish with Parkour, so if there is still something you see as different, please help me to see it, I am trying to be open to what you are saying.

[Mark Toorock]

"andi you asked a question which's answer will make us look bad in front of the ppl that shall buy our dvds and t-shirts thats why im not going to answer".

Andi, you give yourself WAYYY too much credit.

I'm not really worried at all about answering your questions, I don't think anyone here takes you seriously enough to even care.

People here see very clearly that you take every opportunity to try to stir things up and argue about things.

Please see my other post in response ot Erwan to see how I feel about people buying the DVD's. If nobody buys one, it will still have been a very good experience for everyone who worked on it.


As for the competition, people keep saying "it is not in Parkour's nature to have competition" ... I don't believe that, especially if it was created by Raymond Belle in Vietnam, is war not a competition for your life? A BATTLE against another country in which the ultimate competition exists to be better faster stronger to KILL the enemy or SAVE your own life?

Hopefully you can clear that up for me.

As for whether I would ever make a Parkour competition, I think the answer is no. I think that a Freerunning competition would be a much better idea and business venture, and it is generally more spectacular for people to watch, because just by watching most of the population can't understand what Parkour really is and what physical training it involves, but with Freerunning they can easily see flashy moves, so this would make much better television, and be a much better idea for ESPN. I believe that satisfies both "Parkour's intention" and better business sense.

Of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure you'll tell me how.

Now, please answer my two questions:

1. How is a sport made of competitive obstacle coursing different from a Parkour competition?

2. If Parkour was created by Raymond Belle to be better at war, how is that inherently (meaning "by it's nature") not competitive?

Thanks.

[Deft]

I have walked away from any and all arguments on this thread.
I DID want to vocalize my dissapointment in how I was not trying to be rude but yet I was given 6 or 7 smites yesterday and half occurred when I wasn't even on line. Are some people just smite happy? I stopped keeping up with this thread when it was obvious that the only direction was heading was downhill. I didn't read the last couple pages but I did see people (at least one) calling people "cowards" and saying that "they are full of shit"  and noticed that no smites were given. I don't want to point fingers but I do want the smiters to think before they smite. (and I will try to think before I post)

[Mark Toorock]

That has so little to do with what is going on that I am going to smite you for being an idiot and tell you that if your smite count is the most important thing then I will ask you politely not to come here anymore.

[Mark Toorock]

Erwan, I also wanted to thank you for this post:
(containing)

You could help some young people discover things about how to develop their bodies and minds. Just like surf, yoga or pilates could.
You will offer yourself and some few others the opportunity to make a living out of something they really like.

This is my intention, and when I saw David Belle 3 years ago I knew it was a "higher" and more complete form of training than these other things alone. I practice Yoga sometimes, ,martial arts, etc, and all of them add into being a complete person in my opinion.

To me, there is no purpose in training a body if you are not going to also train the mind, for the body is a lump of coal, the mind is where the conscience lives, where a person "exists".

I feel that ideal training would include general fitness, some flexibility, Parkour, some martial arts like training for defense and other benefits, some gymnastic and acrobatic training, some stealth or ninjitsu type training, and some what I think of as "environmental training" which is what I think from my small exposure to Haberey and Hebert. Of course with all of this must be the training of the mind, not only through the physical forging of athleticism, but also through reading and learning to understand certain things about how the world works.

Then, with some of all of these elements, I feel a person is in a better position to add to society as a whole, to be in fact, "helpful".

[Matthew Lee Willis]

LOL Deft, you know how to work a crowd.  If you were to read the posts and then come to your post...you would be a little embarrassed.  I feel that most of the Mods are trying to stay out of this one but I can not.

Erwin & Andi (sounds like a bad British comedy) I am appalled that you could treat someone as M2 with the respect that you did.  I am truly disappointed.  PAWA should be as well for allowing you guys to say the things that you did.  You guys talk about selling out and yet M2 has created a "TEAM" just as David Belle did.  Hey...Wait a second you were invited to that team were not you?  Wow so...by telling M2 that this team has no purpose and that he should have started it is a total contradition isn't it?  I think right now.  M2, his website and his team are doing more for Parkour then anyone else is doing now.  Yes Even David Belle.  Sure you guys spread by exhibitions and so forth, but the quality of the forums here and the Mods are astounding. *applauds them*

You have no Idea what kind of ridiculous Roderic that you are spouting.  Also the fact that you are attacking M2 on a personal level is appalling.  Why don't you live and not come back.  We don't need your ridiculous comments.  Parkour Competitions.  Yes, would it be true parkour if you had a competition...?  I liked what M2 said!  People have a right to change their mind as much as possible.  Oh and you talk about these competitions as though they are happening all the time.  Within small group maybe...a best run gets a free drink or something but come on.

[Mark Toorock]

Woah! Matthew, I have to say I feel you're speaking about things you don't know about. Erwan is someone who I have great respect for, and I don't take his talk as a perosnal attack. I do ask him for clarification, but not in an agrumentative or defensive way, but rather in the way that I feel he is someone that I have a great deal to learn from.

No, nobody outside of the US was asked to be in the Tribe, so Erwan's comments about "a boundary" are correct in that sense. We are not trying to "win anyhting" or take anything away form anyone else, so in that sense I don't feel like it is a boundary or territorial thing.

I am also embarrassed that you would say I am doing more for Parkour than David Belle. I am trying to be helpful, I would not ever compare myself to David in terms of Parkour. Most of my training and focus until very recently was in martial arts, this is where I draw most of my knowledge and parallels, but there is NO WAY in which I compare with David Belle in terms of Parkour, I don't belong in the same sentence as him.

I do try to help people to find Parkour and understand it, I do spend a lot of time and effort to do this, and I appreciate that you are recognizing that, but this is not the way to do it.

I appreciate you "sticking up for me" but it is not neccessary, nor do I feel it is appropriate in this case.

[andi k]

mlw:  its erwAn you wanker.

M2, his website and his team are doing more for Parkour then anyone else is doing now.  Yes Even David Belle.

hahahahahahah.  funny guy you are.   i will quote EZ and M2, the old dreamteam, for this:

M2:
Matthew, I have to say I feel you're speaking about things you don't know about

EZ:
little do you know...

but its ok,  blind naive kids like you are always fun to watch,  you make the day on the forums, without ppl like you making themself the idiot it wouldnt be as funny as it is :-)

Also the fact that you are attacking M2 on a personal level

again:

M2:
Matthew, I have to say I feel you're speaking about things you don't know about

i know m2 long enough, and we've had enough fun, and enough arguments, that you dont need to try to defend him.

are you some sort of attention seeker ? like.. when i argued with gear, you said he has whole texas parkour on his back and now u try to defend m2...  sorry but m2, erwan, and me argument on an other level than you do, you are a brainless little wannabe.. so let the big boys play their game and go work your parkour, i heard you train not that much and arent skilled/experienced either. not that i would say its a bad thing to be new or not dedicated (well not dedicated is bad to me, but to some its not) - BUT then dont play the big arse.. because you are basically nothing.

cu

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oh and mark.. you underestimate the amount of americans that disagree with your actions.