Author Topic: Carbs and running?  (Read 3141 times)

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Carbs and running?
« on: July 06, 2007, 07:44:47 AM »
I generally have a pretty good diet. I haven't had fast food in years, most of what I eat is lean proteins and fresh veggies; I limit processed foods and sugar, etc. A lot of this is because of ballet and over the years I've sort of developed eating habits that form my pre-season/season/off-season diets, preferred pre-performance foods, etc. It works pretty well at keeping my weight reasonable and fueling what I need to do in the studio and on stage.

When I did other physical activities, such as martial arts and weightlifting, I didn't really change my diet all that much and it worked out fine. However now that I'm learning parkour, I'm finding my diet isn't working, and I think it's because of the running, which I never really did before now. There was a year or two in college where I ran daily for 20 minutes or so, but back then I was taking a (bitter) break from dance and, you know, it was college so I mostly ate pizza and drank beer, the benefit of a youthful metabolism on my side. :)

That was years ago and I have since gotten back into ballet very seriously and have not run in a long, long time. I picked it up again when I started parkour, but now I have a *very* hard time with running, as many of you know. I can barely complete a mile, and I have very low motivation some days to "just do it" even though I know I should. Yet I know I *can* do it because in college I ran all over the place, every day, even in ice and snow, for extended periods of time. Most of the time when I think of running I sort of go, "ugh" and when I force myself to do it, it often feels really hard for me, like I'm running through mud or something. My body is just a big obstinate whiny wuss the whole time, like it's fighting me (the image I get is a dog being pulled by its master, digging in its paws because it doesn't want to go to the vet).

Anyway, sometimes, usually at times when I can't run (because I'm, say, in the car on my way somewhere), I get this urge to run. I feel like I could run and run for days, and I really want to. I don't know why this feeling never seems to come on right before I run, but c'est la vie. It occurred to me diet might have something to do with it, so I did some research.

Most of what I read talked about the need for carbs for runners. The recommendation I got was that a runner's diet should be 50% carbs. I eat very little in the way of carbs. Should I be eating more? Could part of the reason I feel I don't have the energy to run be from the fact that I eat almost no carbs (except for vegetables)? The last few times I got the feeling I really could run, and wanted to, I had eaten a meal with more carbs in it than usual (e.g. sushi, which is my favorite pre-performance food, precisely because of the carbs and protein; or a softshell taco, or buckwheat soba).

Basically, I'm confused. I know what works for dance, but I've never had to eat like a runner before. I know that the 50% recommendation is probably for people who are serious runners, so it's likely high for my purposes; and I also know what constitutes a "good" carb (e.g. whole grains, low sugar/GI, etc.). The question is, should I be adding more carbs to support the running? If so, I'll need to make some adjustments.

Gosh, this was long. Did I even say anything? :P Your help is most welcome.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Steven Low

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 04:58:33 PM »
"Good" carbs can be generally assumed as your low glycemic index carbs. The longer lasting ones from whole grains, pastas, and such. Higher glycemic ones will spike your insulin which isn't that great because it blunts hormonal release from exercise like growth hormone, and, even though it is an anabolic hormone, it promotes glycogen synthesis in muscles AND fat tissue. The former being good and the latter being "bad" as it were.

I would say yes to adding more carbs. Carbs are the general fuel for the glycolytic and oxidative pathways in your body which is the main energy pathways that runners use. If you're lower than 30% you should probably be a bit higher especially if you're doing a lot of exercise.

I recently had a discussion with whiteninja on AIM about the stagnation of his training which I related to my experience about half a year ago with too many carbs in my diet. My training basically stagnated because I was eating like 70-80% carbs per day and my insulin was spiking out of control. Normally I was doing strength 3x a week with some conditioning without getting sore but simple workouts were making me sore and my recovery sucked. Once I sorted it down to about 50% I was fine. Since I'm Asian we have a higher general tolerance for carbs (because we eat a lot of rice) than other ethnicities. In any case, he had a pretty low volume of carbs so I suggested adding some more. This is still in progress so we'll see if I was right in a couple of days or a week. :P
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Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2007, 08:10:19 AM »
Thanks, Steve!

I've been experimenting with adding some carbs; yesterday I had some whole grain cereal but it was also really sugary which surprised me; I don't think I'll be eating that again. Blech.

I'm going to try to start adding in some brown rice, whole wheat pasta, etc. and mess with the percentages a bit and see what happens. It will be interesting for us to compare notes.

Thanks, as always, for the great advice.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline whiteninja

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2007, 04:57:25 PM »
It's important to take into account the glycemic load of the food too. That is, the the GI multiplied by the grams of carbs per 100 grams of food.  For example, watermelon has a GI that's much higher than most grains, though, by weight, it has far fewer carbs (like 5g carbs per 100g of watermelon).  Watermelon's GL ends up being around 4, while white rice is 16, just because it is so much more dense.


Right now, I'm trying:
Blocks: 20 per day, 1.5xC, 1xP, 4xF (nearly 4000 calories)
Meals: 5-5-3-4-3
Food selections: Paleo, excluding cottage cheese and some peanut butter, more fruit than veggies, but still really hard to eat all that volume

The extra carbs in the 3 block meals are transfered over tot he 4 block meal, which comes ~40 minutes after my workout ends.  This will get me the insulin spike Steven mentioned, which I can handle, since I plan on overgaining and leaning out anyway.  Feeling much better eating like this... Hopefully it'll last.


I honestly don't know why so many long distance runners do carb-loading.  When you run for long distances at a relatively low intensity, you use oxidative metabolism.  You burn about 70% of your energy from fat (either dietary, or adipose tissue), and 30% from glucose stored in the muscles.  It'd make more sense for them to do fat loading! 

Sprinters on the other hand, rely on glycolisis (~100% glucose burn), because at that intensity, they cannot get the oxygen required for oxidation, and glycolisis is much faster anyway. Then again, their events are so short, that there's no need to carb-load!

Quote
Gosh, this was long. Did I even say anything?

Same here! Hahah.


50% carbs is probably way too high for you, or any runner, or anyone at all, but you probably do need more than just vegetables.  I'd recommend fruit over any sort of grain; both tastier and healthier.

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2007, 06:14:50 PM »
Good point about the GL vs. GI, Ninja. I hadn't considered that, previously. *makes notes*


Right now, I'm trying:
Blocks: 20 per day, 1.5xC, 1xP, 4xF (nearly 4000 calories)
Meals: 5-5-3-4-3
Food selections: Paleo, excluding cottage cheese and some peanut butter, more fruit than veggies, but still really hard to eat all that volume

I don't know what that means. Is this a specific type of diet? Is there a link for it somewhere? Also--I realize you and I have different goals when it comes to diet for fitness, but... wow... 4000 calories! I'd be a blimp in 24 hours! I try to stay between 1500-1800.


50% carbs is probably way too high for you, or any runner, or anyone at all, but you probably do need more than just vegetables.  I'd recommend fruit over any sort of grain; both tastier and healthier.

Yeah I'm going to try 30-40% and see what works. Regarding the fruit vs. whole grains, I realize that fruit is probably a better GL, but isn't it simple carbohydrates? Wouldn't it be better for me to have complex carbs? Then again, for the short distance running I do (my pathetic "almost mile" that I can barely squeeze out), perhaps the simple carbs are more what my body needs.

Thoughts?
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline whiteninja

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2007, 06:56:34 PM »
Sorry, I refer to Zone counting methods by default.

The Zone is a convenient way to measure out food, and keep it into good proportions by specifying foods as a certain number of "blocks."  It's nothing more than a counting method.  It's alot of estimations, and when all added up, they round each other out.  When you just start the Zone (hoping for major fat loss in most cases), you eat a a balanced number of blocks, which puts you into a calorie deficit, while allowing you to not get hungry, and setting you up with more balanced eating habits. In order to get out of that calorie deficit (after you are lean), you typically increase the fat blocks by 2-5x.  I found that unless I increase carbohydrate too, I feel like crap (so far).  Really, I'm not on the Zone diet anymore, but it was a good place to start, and the counting system is still nice.

Here's more about it: http://frontrangecrossfit.typepad.com/nutrition/files/the_zone_diet_for_crossfit.pdf

During the school year, I ate about 2250 calories per day, but now I'm a lot more active, and I'm still trying to gain another ~10lbs.

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2007, 05:58:51 PM »
Ah. Thanks. A number of the girls in company do The Zone, but I'd never heard them talk about blocks before. Interesting.

*reads and learns*

At this point I'm just going to try to eyeball it to get the carbs to about 30-40% and then prioritize fruit over whole grains over "white" carbs (keeping these as minimal as possible). So, lots of fruit, oatmeal, and whole wheat pasta/couscous in my future. :-) And bulgur! Yay!

Thanks for the tips, guys. This is very helpful.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 02:24:45 PM »
to present a differing view... aight

so, we all know the whole diabetes type 2 growth thing.  I know that its common to carboload before training especially in runners because it feels like more energy etc.  Basically, if you carbo load, you get tons of insulin released, the insulin breaks down glucose etc etc.  now, if you train, the immediate/easiest energy is the glucose you just loaded up on.  What this means is that you get a huge spike in insulin, (already a bad thing) and then you remove all the glucose that the insulin was there in the first place to bring in.  Diab type 2 is all about insulin resistance.  So if you get a bunch of insulin running around with nothing to do too frequently, you in the long term develope diab type 2.  not good, as that is one of the biggest issues we have in health care nowadays.  therefore I'm against carbo loading. 

Now if you carbo load AFTER you work out, that I'm ok with.  your body will be glycogen depleted, so it will be trying to replace it.  that actually can be argued as healthy. 

there's more but ill continue later
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2007, 03:47:45 PM »
I wouldn't worry about that too much Cheetaur if the person is active.

Basically even if you are getting a lot of insulin when you're not doing anything you know the receptors WILL start to get downregulated which is the start of type II diabetes. However, as long as you deplete glycogen at least occasionally, that will cause upregulation of insulin receptors because the body needs to be sensitive to it to produce more glycogen to ready muscles to work again. That's why a lot of people nearing type II diabetes can basically reverse it back to full health if they start exercising regularly. Changing their diet really isn't going to do much for upregulation of insulin receptors unfortunately.
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Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2007, 07:39:42 PM »
Oh, I'm not talking about carbo-loading. I'm talking about simply adding carbs to my diet, period. Right now I'd say my diet is maybe 5-10% carbs, and most of that is from vegetables. My guess is, this probably isn't the healthiest thing to do since I've started to add running to my exercise routine.

The idea of eating a huge plate of pasta terrifies me, actually. I have to wear pink tights for a living. ;)
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline whiteninja

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 08:56:30 AM »
Basically even if you are getting a lot of insulin when you're not doing anything you know the receptors WILL start to get downregulated which is the start of type II diabetes. However, as long as you deplete glycogen at least occasionally, that will cause upregulation of insulin receptors because the body needs to be sensitive to it to produce more glycogen to ready muscles to work again. That's why a lot of people nearing type II diabetes can basically reverse it back to full health if they start exercising regularly. Changing their diet really isn't going to do much for upregulation of insulin receptors unfortunately.

Really? Do you have a source for that information?  That's something my dad could learn...

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 09:44:48 AM »
well, it is true that exercise makes your receptors upregulated, but i still stand by the idea that the high fluxes in glucose is not good for the body.  In fact, (from my undergrad research), it is shown that though your exercise feels better at first, the insulin in combination of the exercise ends up totally dropping your bld sugar more than it would if you hadn't carbo-loaded (obviously) and makes you more tired after about 20 min than you would be besides that... :)

and muse, sorry, i must not have read too well your post haha, I was in a rush at the time.  Based on my own research, I lean towards the lower carb diet side (as protien gives more energy anyway).  there are reasons and im aware of the debates, but that's my personal opinion as I stand against sugar (and processed food) in general.  but as you said that you don't eat processesd carbs, complex carbs are ok IMO, but i would still stay in the low carb region (especially as an athlete)
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 06:38:50 PM »
Cheetaur:

If you did research did you all publish a paper on it? I'd like to read it if that's the case...


Whiteninja:

Yes, that's true. I don't have a source because I just pulled it all from memory though. Just googled a bit on it and practice *ANY* weight loss will reduce insulin resistance. That means if you're fat and lose weight, you can start reversing type II diabetes (unless you already have it pretty severe which you're just screwed already).
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Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 01:31:05 PM »
So, I've started doing the Zone/Crossfit diet based on the link WN posted here (thanks again, btw! It's been one day and already I feel a difference!)

However, I have a question:

In the article, there is a table that talks about how many blocks to do based on size. I am going on the "Small Female" one (being 5' 2" and 115 lbs.). The recommendation for that is 2 blocks for every meal and both snacks. However, I feel full *all* the time on this! I feel like I'm eating nonstop. Granted, 5 meals at 2 blocks each looks to be along the lines of the "mini-meals" diet philosophy, and that's fine, I understand the rationale; but honestly I feel too full most of the day.

The diet in the article WN posted is based on an active lifestyle, and I'm pretty active, but it is based on being a Crossfitter and I don't think I'm to that level of activity. So would it be bad if I cut my snacks down to 1 block each, and kept the meals at 2? I mean, I just feel like I should at least feel sort of hungry a few times during the day. By the time I get to lunch, I don't even want to eat at this point, because I don't feel hungry, but I know skipping meals is bad. I just haven't had a point yet today where I feel hungry, so I'm thinking of cutting the snacks down to 1 block instead of 2.

Thoughts?
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline whiteninja

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 06:12:27 PM »
I'd be a bit wary about going down to 8 blocks per day.  At that point, you may start to lean mass from a lack of protein and/or you performance may drop.  You may want to try 9 first and see how that works.  Infact, if your calorie intake is normally 1500-1800 per day, you might need to start out with the fat intake increased to ~2.5x, or you will start to loose weight. (It's important to note that in that PDF, the list of foods for fat lists half-blocks.  The other half of the fat block comes from the lean protein; for further blocks of fat, there is no matching protein to provide the second half.)


I'd recommend:
1. Asking the girls in your company what they do. (Teachers can learn from students too!)
2. Trying 9 blocks, probably with 2x fat for adequate calories.  (Olive oil, while gross at first, is a REALLY easy source of fat that won't fill you up.)
3. Search on the CrossFit message boards. http://www.crossfit.com/cgi-bin/discus/search.cgi
4. Ask on the CrossFit message boards.

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 07:13:42 PM »
steve, hey, sorry it took me a bit to get back to you.  No, when i went back and read it, it sounded wrong.  I was researching information on performance and carbs etc, as well as the effects on the blood glucose levels.  I did not perform the study myself :), only reported on it etc, Its been 4 years since i last did that research though, so i can't remember exactly where, but I'm sure you can find it if you search for it on pubmed or soemthing :).  if not, maybe when i have more time i can look it up for the exact papers.  aigt
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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 10:57:21 AM »
Muse, the 5 meal standard isn't set in stone, actually some VERY intelligent cats over the p-menu suggest 3 or less per-day: http://www.performancemenu.com

To top it off, they have a great article in their latest issue of their journal that's all about tweaking the zone to your needs. And to make it even better, you can sign up and get that specific issue for free!

Many people (myself included) have found that the zone is great for learning what you actually need, i.e. dialing in portions and giving yourself some awareness of the "value" of different sources of food, but once you get used to it you might need to tweak it a bit. At the moment, I tend to eat pretty low-carb throughout the day and focus my starchier/sugary sources directly pre and post-workout when insulin sensitivity is greatest and the nutrients are used predominately for refueling muscle glycogen and increasing protein synthesis. There's some more great info about that approach in both this and last months P-menu.

So, my recommendation would be to stick with the base Zone until you can whip out 2 blocks without thinking about it, then work on tweaking it one way or the other to see how you feel performance-wise. Let me know if you need any help!


Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 01:07:49 PM »
Thanks, gear! :)

I appreciate it. This diet is similar to the "Diet for Dancers" that was published in the 80s, although nutrition science has changed a lot since then so it's easy for me to get an idea of portion sizes, but I struggle with certain differences: e.g. I forget that nuts in the Zone are considered "fats" and I have always considered them "proteins," so often I eat my block's worth of nuts, but I leave the protein out of my snack entirely. So that's something I'm still getting used to.

I'm starting to tweak down to just stopping eating when I'm full, and not eating until I'm hungry (or when I anticipate a need for fuel), and sort of let the number of blocks take care of themselves.

I realized too that my goals with diet may be different from many other people who frequent this site; namely: that I'm not trying to build muscle so much as maintain a performance level and maintain weight/stay lean. If I lose some weight, it's actually better because of what I do: during season I try to stay around 105-110.

Thanks for the link; I'll definitely check it out. Much appreciated! :D
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline whiteninja

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 07:05:21 PM »
Gear,

I think intermittent fasting is something a bit to extreme for anyone new to the Zone to start, or for most people in general.  I might try it this upcoming Christmas vacation, when I have two weeks free to feel like total crap while adjusting... Though I still doubt I'll physically be able to eat all of that food so fast.

Muse,

Intermittent fasting basically has you either:
a) compress all your meals into a small time-frame (usually 5-6 hours) OR
b) eat from whatever-o'clock one day to the same whatever-o'clock the next day, then eat nothing until the next whatever-o'clock, then eat again until the next whatever-o'clock (most people do 6PM)

On 'a' you have to eat all of your food alot faster.
On 'b' you have to eat double the usual amount of food one day, then none the next.

It increases your body's ability to recover and function by throwing it into a state of temporary shock and by not requiring it to put any effort into digesting food for long periods of time.  It is backed up by research and results, not just some crazy trend... I'll try it, just not yet.

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Re: Carbs and running?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 09:32:10 AM »
I'm not necessarily suggesting fasting so much as suggesting that perhaps some people are better off NOT trying to shove 5 meals worth of food down if it doesn't seem to mesh with their own personal metabolism, especially in light of what fasting seems to offer as far as insulin sensitivity and recovery from stressors.