Author Topic: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE  (Read 1205 times)

Offline KC Parsons

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Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« on: July 03, 2012, 09:10:35 PM »
This study just came out last week and has gotten a LOT of press.

The article that got published in the NY Timeswas written by none other than Taubes where he promotes the hell out of low carb diets based on this study. His big knockout punch is the effect that very low carb diets have on resting energy expenditure (REE).

Here's my very crude review of it.

Quote from: me ranting on facebook
Total resting energy expenditure, on average, was about a whopping 70 kCals more per day in the VLCD group compared to the low fat group. That in and of itself makes me giggle.

But, if we back up, they f#cked around with the protein. VLCD had 150g of protein per 2000 kcals while the other two got only about 105g per 2000 kcals. That's a very important variable and should have been consistent from group to group.

A side consideration is that fiber in the low GI and low fat groups was set about 3 times higher than the low carb.

Anyway, then we look at the trends. On AVERAGE, the REE decreased the least in the VLCD group (again, only by 70 kCals). But if you follow each individual, the results are wayyyy more varied. some people had the highest REE on the low GI diet. Some people had the highest REE on the low fat. And then some people had the highest REE on the very low carb diet. For some, it was about the same across the board.

So you can conclude, statistically, that you MIGHT be someone who could respond better to VLCD diets (as far as that big giant burn of 70 extra kCals a day goes).

What really makes this even more laughable are the hormonal adaptations. The positive points for the VLCD were metabolic:
Higher HDL (though do note that total lipoproteins went up), lower serum triglycerides, and better overall insulin sensitivity (bear in mind that in none of the groups did insulin sensitivity worsen, they all got better. VLCD just got the best compared to the other two).

But the hormonal changes were pretty shitty for the VLCD: Leptin, Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, and active T3 were all significantly lower compared to the low GI and low fat groups. To top that off, the VLCD had significantly more urinary cortisol as well. This gives me a good laugh since the same group of people who tend to get their jimmies all rustled over insulin and carbs also have a vengeful hate for cortisol.

To expand on that real quick, here's some food for thought. For most of these changes, we're looking at basically which diet sucked less. That is, all diets had lowered resting energy expenditure from pre-diet baseline, but VLCD just had the smallest decrease (on average for that astounding 70 kCals, mind you). Same goes for leptin. Leptin dropped in all of the dieters, it simply dropped the least for the low-fat group.

But, oddly enough, in the low-fat group, urinary cortisol actually dropped from pre-diet baseline. While this is a relatively crude measure, it's a bit funny to think of someone actively dieting (even if that's just intentionally controlling to keep maintenance) and being less stressed.

Oh, and all of this is only reliably applicable if you're 18-40 years old with a BMI of 27 or higher.

All in all, it was a great study. Other than the protein issue, I do like the design and am happy about this new data we have. What I don't like is the retarded f#cking conclusions that came about because someone has an inaccurate agenda that he needs to continue to maintain or because most everyone else just read the abstract without looking at the details.


Thoughts, ideas, input, discussion - all are welcome and encouraged.

Offline Josh Vernier

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2012, 10:18:33 PM »
I only have one thing to say...F@#$ING FINALLY!!

Offline Joe Brock

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2012, 01:16:01 AM »
So, what you're saying, is that I can MAYBE (depending on predisposition to personal response) increase my REE by a whopping 70kcal a day (on a roughly 5000-6500 kcal a day intake) by going to a VLCD?

Seems legit.

The humor of the lowered cortisol levels in the low-fat group isn't lost on me, though.  That's hilarious.

I'm surprised to see the T3 levels dropping on a VLCD.  I wouldn't have expected that.

I'd like to see this followed up in a long-term study, and one of the options being to test high-glycemic foods given in the post-training hours.  I honestly have grown a religious affinity for following up heavy training by consuming over 90% of my daily sugars in the 2 or so hours after working out.  Seems to work well for me.  Then again, I'm not one to spout the glorious wonders of any diet.

Perhaps I will change my original stance of "a calorie is a calorie" to "a calorie is a calorie, give or take 1-2%."
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Offline Steve Low

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2012, 04:59:02 AM »
Cortisol elevated on low carb is common sense really.

You need extra hormones to activate lipolysis to make up for the extra energy for the carbs... it's a more stressful state on the body in general

Like I said on EMI forum though, for those with terrible insulin sensitivity in pre-diabetic/diabetic glucose range I would still go low/very low/no carb diet to improve that up because chronically elevated glucose levels screw up with too many of the body's systems that it's negative. The extra insulin sensitivity is beneficial for those people.

Though I've generally moved away from macronutrients to recommending "real foods" -- fruits, vege, meat, fish, birds, eggs.. maybe some nuts and seeds. Dairy only if youre not allergic and trying to gain weight.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:00:59 AM by Steven Low »
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Offline Josh Vernier

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2012, 05:46:35 AM »
I see it as a step in the right direction, at least. May not be much, but it is quantifiable evidence that's getting a lot of press.

Offline Rafe

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 11:31:43 AM »
I think the most profound finding is variability of response, I am pretty convinced by the food reward theory of obesity put forward by stephan Guyenet however I have found that I have shifted to a lower body fat set point since lowering my carb intake independent of calorie restriction. Its not massive between 1.5-2 percent but going from the healthy to athletic BF range is big deal for someone like me.

At this point I advocate a real food diet, starting with paleo as a baseline, adding in agricultural foods depending on tolerance experiment,  with macro ratio's and sups only for performance optimization with an n-1 one philosophy.

Individual variability is huge, Creatine is one of the best supported sups out there, aside from a couple pounds of water retention I had absolutely no noticeable response to it. On the other hand phosphyidyl serine has shifted my entire circadian rhythm by 2 hours.
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 12:40:24 PM »
So, what you're saying, is that I can MAYBE (depending on predisposition to personal response) increase my REE by a whopping 70kcal a day (on a roughly 5000-6500 kcal a day intake) by going to a VLCD?

Seems legit.

The humor of the lowered cortisol levels in the low-fat group isn't lost on me, though.  That's hilarious.

I'm surprised to see the T3 levels dropping on a VLCD.  I wouldn't have expected that.

I'd like to see this followed up in a long-term study, and one of the options being to test high-glycemic foods given in the post-training hours.  I honestly have grown a religious affinity for following up heavy training by consuming over 90% of my daily sugars in the 2 or so hours after working out.  Seems to work well for me.  Then again, I'm not one to spout the glorious wonders of any diet.

Perhaps I will change my original stance of "a calorie is a calorie" to "a calorie is a calorie, give or take 1-2%."
As far as T3 goes, I'm not in the least bit surprised. With leptin dropping due to the very low carb nature of the diet, TSH and T3 go down while cortisol goes up. It's a shame they didn't measure testosterone and growth hormone levels: those probably would have been the worst on the VLCD, too.

Now, this was only done at maintenance which takes a way some of the issues that come with being completely Calorie restricted, thankfully. It's then something to think about, though, that if you're going to maintain this sort of diet, you can expect those hormonal issues to be a regular thing. It's one thing if this were temporary because it's simply a fat loss diet, but using it as a maintenance diet brings a different mentality.

On that note, the metabolic issues (HDL and insulin sensitivity, mainly) would be of a concern to me. But here's how I see it:

Those who have the biggest concern over metabolic issues tend to be pre-diabetic, diabetic, and/or quite overweight. Their first and major concern is weight loss, for ALL sorts of reasons. How they go about it doesn't really seem to matter; the weight loss in and of itself improves all sorts of health markers.

This study proves just that as well. Like I said, all of the dieters improved insulin sensitivity from simply having lost weight. How they maintained that weight affected the degree of sensitivity (with the VLCD having the best), but they all improved from their pre-diet baselines. But, the average weight of the subjects at the start of the study was 105 kilos or about 231 pounds. They lost weight until they had lost an average of 12.5% of their bodyweight. This means, on average, they ended up around 200 pounds. (The average height was about 5' 8", by the way).

It'd be safe to say that they all could benefit from continuing to lose more weight, regardless of the approach needed to do so. To what degree the insulin sensitivity could continue to improve could be remarkable, or cap off very quickly. This would shed light on what would be needed from that point. Get them to a weight range that's generally recognized as healthy, then we can worry more about the best possible maintenance approach.

And yet another side point: the activity used. Couldn't find specifics, but the MPVA (moderate- to vigorous- physical activity) came out to about 10 to 15 minutes per day. Now, I don't know about any of you on here for sure, but for those of you who lift weights or perform strength training in one capacity or another, I think I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who only does that much. Point being, the amount of strength training (if ANY) that was done during this study was minimal. This again is important for two reasons
1)Better muscle preservation (in this case, the lack thereof)
2)The ability to perform high intensity activity.

The VLCD had the lowest MPVA per day @ about 10 minutes, while the low-fat had the highest @ about 15 minutes. This was spun by Taubes in his NY Times article to basically say, "See! My low-carbers didn't even NEED to workout that much to get the same Calorie burn. It's obviously superior." But consider this: the VLCD had less vigorous activity because they couldn't sustain it and perform the same way the low-fat or low-GI could. More food for thought..

So as far as metabolic adaptations go, the first concern is usually weight loss in and of itself. Though, for large individuals with a LOT of weight to lose, VLCD weight loss diets seem to do best with them.

-They don't have the ability, inclination, or strict need to do activity that requires carbs.
-They see a more immediate response of regulating their out-of-whack blood sugar
-They see a larger drop in weight very quickly from the water loss along with the fat loss (and that can be psychologically very helpful - imagine needing to lose 50-100 pounds and being told you can only lose a pound or two a week; contrast that with losing 20 pounds in your first 2 or 3 weeks. Water or not, it helps psychologically give them positive feedback which helps a lot with adherence)
-They cut out a lot of foods that seem to be trigger foods.
-They tend to actually start eating their fruits and veggies. By telling them they only get 50-75g of carbs per day, they can only really achieve this by getting a lot of veggies with some fruit. If they're allowed more (like 200-300g per day), they'll stick with the tastier, starchier, more sugary stuff and forget about the fruits and veggies.

So I'm all for VLCDs in people that meet those criteria. But, outside of that, low-carb diets tend to start to do really shitty things for everyone else.

When we consider the hormonal impact, it doesn't seem wise trying to maintain a diet that has leptin plummeting, making TSH, T3, likely testosterone and growth hormone drop and cortisol elevate. This same diet doesn't allow for any sort of performance in the weight room, or parkour for that matter for any of the power moves. You can get some balance and other low-intensity work in, but good luck performing high intensity movements.

And suffering through all of this so you can get a possible increase of resting energy expenditure of about 70 kCals per day (and like Joe points out, many of us are eating far more than 3000 kCals per day... or at least should be).... sounds like the worst possible choice you could make.

I'm with Joe in wanting to see a study looking at some sort of cyclical carb eating approach used, preferably under conditions of weight loss, weight maintenance, and weight gain. And including weight training. But I also would like an all-expenses-paid vacation on a cruise ship.

And the latter is more likely to happen.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 12:54:38 PM by KC Parsons »

Offline Joe Brock

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »
All of that being said, KC, what are your thoughts on a short-term ketogenic cut for muscle-sparing?

(On your note of psychology for dieters, when you mention that they're more likely to stick to the diet due to the initial drop in water weight...that also has the counter of if/when they "slip up" and have a couple donuts.  Then the depression is going to kick in hard.  I'm not sure that it's best to mislead someone into believing that the scale represents their progress.)
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 03:50:41 PM »
All of that being said, KC, what are your thoughts on a short-term ketogenic cut for muscle-sparing?

(On your note of psychology for dieters, when you mention that they're more likely to stick to the diet due to the initial drop in water weight...that also has the counter of if/when they "slip up" and have a couple donuts.  Then the depression is going to kick in hard.  I'm not sure that it's best to mislead someone into believing that the scale represents their progress.)

Going into ketosis intentionally for muscle sparing is ill-advised. For what it's worth, think of ketosis as a 'side effect' of going into that low of carbs as opposed to having any real benefit when it comes down to it. Protein is the most protein-sparing nutrient, but when you're in ketosis at very low carb levels (like 25-30g/day), we see that even giving 50-100 more grams of carbs, muscle wasting and protein needs drop significantly. It all depends on the context of the situation, but in any situation where muscle sparing is the goal, weight training and higher protein are the two main regulators of that.

Offline Joe Brock

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2012, 08:24:30 AM »
Not to drag this out too far, but the "individual" aspects of dieting are something that I've noticed.  My wife was running a VLCD a while back, and making pretty decent gains on speed, strength, and composition.  Her 40 meter times were dropping, she had lost about 4% BF, and added about #30 to her total.  She was preaching the wonders of high fat/high protein.

So, I tried what she was suggesting.  I stuck to it for about a week before I decided that I was going to die a thousand deaths if I didn't get some carbs soon.  I felt sluggish, weak, and tired.  A whole orange and some milk, and I was back to feeling decent again by the end of the day.  I didn't have blood work or anything to confirm any of my suspicions.  I simply lost some of my "intensity" which is how I gauge a lot of things.  Being a "lifer," I go by feel a lot.  I didn't feel good, so it wasn't worth pursuing.

There's the point to consider that our training isn't really comparable in total volume, but I had tried to adjust everything up to make up for the fact that I'm about #70 heavier and train much heavier.  Still, it doesn't take a lot of science to tell that if you only change your diet, and everything else seems to be going downhill, then it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do.
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Offline Steve Low

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 04:00:24 PM »
Quote
So, I tried what she was suggesting.  I stuck to it for about a week before I decided that I was going to die a thousand deaths if I didn't get some carbs soon.  I felt sluggish, weak, and tired.  A whole orange and some milk, and I was back to feeling decent again by the end of the day.  I didn't have blood work or anything to confirm any of my suspicions.  I simply lost some of my "intensity" which is how I gauge a lot of things.  Being a "lifer," I go by feel a lot.  I didn't feel good, so it wasn't worth pursuing.

A week is too short to get fat adapted though...

Usually takes about 3-4 weeks.

Same with gluten free stuff and whatever.

That's why it's always a monthly challenge. :)

But I generally agree that anyone who is HEALTHY should not be doing low carb. No hunter-gatherer (aka the real Paleos) get less than around 100-110g carbs per day which is at least 20% diet of carbs on a typical 2000kcal.

Most healthy people would be better up around 30-40% carbs, 30% protein or so, and 30-40% fat
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Offline Joe Brock

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 06:08:14 AM »
A week is too short to get fat adapted though...

Yes, I know the science, and I'm aware that it's supposed to get easier as the adaptation occurs.  What I'm saying is "Screw it, I don't like not getting some carbs in."

When I have to stop adding milk to my coffee, the world suffers.
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Offline Mr.WWII

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 09:39:55 PM »
I was honestly thrilled by all the press the study got. My parents, relatives, and clients all mentioned it to me, and I was like "Yes! finally I don't have to try and convince these people that the 1500 kcal of bread they eat everyday is probably what's keeping them fat, and that bacon is not the devil!" It's definitely a step in the right direction, and hopefully more people will at least consider adopting a more real food/paleo-ish diet because of it.

And Steven, considering most people's will power when it comes to food, if the average healthy person attempts vlcd/paleo, they'll prob f#ck up enough so that they end up in your more comfortable middle ground, with about 30% or so carb. So it may not be bad for a lot of people to shoot for vlcd, since they'll prob end up at a more moderate carb diet anyway. Kinda like how ya tell people an event starts a half hour earlier than it really does, since you know they'll all be late anyway

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 06:04:08 PM »
Yeah that's true.

Most of the studies I looked at actually show that people are MORE compliant with low carb diets, although the compliance rate is terrible for both groups.
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2012, 05:36:04 AM »
And compliance gets worse and worse as more weight is lost. 5%-10% weight loss is manageable for most people, but beyond that point adherence starts going down the toilet.  It's actually pretty depressing if you look at the rates of people who diet down and can stay there. Most are destined to add the majority of the weight back, it's just a matter of time.

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2012, 05:37:36 AM »
I was honestly thrilled by all the press the study got. My parents, relatives, and clients all mentioned it to me, and I was like "Yes! finally I don't have to try and convince these people that the 1500 kcal of bread they eat everyday is probably what's keeping them fat, and that bacon is not the devil!" It's definitely a step in the right direction, and hopefully more people will at least consider adopting a more real food/paleo-ish diet because of it.

And Steven, considering most people's will power when it comes to food, if the average healthy person attempts vlcd/paleo, they'll prob f#ck up enough so that they end up in your more comfortable middle ground, with about 30% or so carb. So it may not be bad for a lot of people to shoot for vlcd, since they'll prob end up at a more moderate carb diet anyway. Kinda like how ya tell people an event starts a half hour earlier than it really does, since you know they'll all be late anyway

If 1500 kCals is keeping them fat, they're doing something very, very wrong.

Offline MedvisP

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2012, 09:42:10 AM »
1500 kCals *of bread. I assume they also eat other types of food :P
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Recent Study "Proving" Low Carb Diets are Superior for REE
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2012, 08:21:22 PM »
1500 kCals *of bread. I assume they also eat other types of food :P

Right, so we agree it's total overeating that's the problem? :P