Topic: Biomechanics in a Deadlift

[Joe Brock]

I'm about to get borderline scientific on something that I've been wondering, and even though I'm what you might call a "meathead," I think I can get the basics of my thoughts out there for you smarter folks.

Speed Deadlifting to increase lockout:

In both experience and study, I've found that I perform better using a sumo-stance for deadlifting, which can be attributed to higher mechanical efficiency and the fact that I train squats wide.  I made the switch a few months back after I got the loads around 3xBW and noticed that my starting position on the pull wasn't the standard 45-degree angle, and closer to a 15-degree angle, placing a significant level more stress around the L4/L5 (as studied by Cholewicki et al (1991){Medical Science Journal of Sports Exercise. Vol 23}) vertebrae.  This relieves a great deal of stress on my back, but has the neuromuscular disadvantage that it's not something that I've worked as speed strength.  PCleans tend to carryover to a conventional DL very well, but the changes in hip activation from widening the feet totally change the feng-shui of the lift for me (and since you guys like science...this is backed by (Piper & Waller, 2001) {Strength and Conditioning Journal. Vol 23, No. 3}).

My question starts where I tend to struggle with the lift.  With a conventional stance, if the bar would ever leave the floor, I could get it to lockout.  The breakdowns were always the start of the conventional pull, or grip issues when attempting multiples above #400.  Currently, I really struggle with the last 20% of the lift.  Acceleration off of the floor isn't an issue, but I slow down greatly as I approach the final lockout position.  As I understand it, the sumo-stance is used to keep the spinal erectors under less load at the beginning of the pull, and the erect position is maintained much more rigidly throughout the entirety of the lift.  This would lead me to believe that the top portion of the sumo deadlift should behave much like the top portion of the wide stance squat.  As Siff and Verkhoshansky pointed out in Supertraining v. 6, the quarter squat permits higher loads than the half-squat position, and since I don't have an issue with stalling at the top of the squat...I'm assuming that I'm simply not recruiting at the same rate of force development as I would under similar loads in the squat.

That being said, since a PClean doesn't really translate to having your feet about 5' apart, I'm looking at training this using CAT with about 50-60% of my current PR, so double plates+some form of dynamic loading.  I know that many of you guys (ahem, Steven!) understand biomechanics better than I do, so what would be the pros and cons of such an attempt?

EDIT:  I also am very much convinced that the other possibility is because the weights are just really f***ing heavy and that over time, I'll still be slow at the lockout, but with more weight in my hands.  This is generally my answer to everything: "You're just not strong enough yet."  So, if I'm over-thinking it, then so be it.  Just wondering if the risk v. reward for speed deads makes them worthwhile.

[Steve Low]

So what exactly are you asking? lol

If you want to know how to break it off the floor I would suggest some platform DLing, and if you need some lockout work up top work on heavy rack pulls.

It's really pretty simple -- work on where your weakness is.

And do assistance exercises if need be.

Coming off the floor it depends what part is breaking... it's mainly quads straigthening the knee, but if back if rounding might need some back work or if the hips are giving out then some glute specific

At the top, mostly hip extension so glute/hammy specific work

[Jason C. Astor]

post to follow

[Ryan Sannar]

this ^

[Sam Dutton]

Also posting to follow.

[Joe Brock]

I guess I should have said what I was thinking in less words.

I've switched to a sumo deadlift, which makes it much easier for me to break it off the floor (raw, that is.)  This has worked well, but I'm slowing down like crazy at the lockout.

The only reason I was looking at banded deads instead of heavy rack pulls is that for me to really be challenged from pin 1, I'll be doing rack pulls with 550-650#.  I don't like buying new bars that much, so I'd like to avoid this.

And do assistance exercises if need be.

At the top, mostly hip extension so glute/hammy specific work

Lol, you forget who you're talking too.  

For my normal deadlift day, I'm doing my strength work up front, then following it up with 4x12 Kroc Rows with #85-#100 Dumbbells (depending on what week of my cycle I'm on) for grip, Ham Curls or GHRs for hammies, Good Mornings@5x10 with #135, and then either standing abs or a ball sit-up with a #45 plate held behind my head.

On Mondays, it's squat day so I try to mix the assistance up.  Wide stance box squats 5/3/1 style, SLDL or Romanian DL for 3x10@#225, Reverse Hypers 5x20 w/ #50.  Leg extension 5x10 w #75-#95.  Then hanging leg raises 5x10. 
...I think if I try to mix in anything else, I'm going to be doing more harm than good.  I'm still an "amateur" lifter, and I train totally raw for now...and drug free all the time.

Now, one sentence to summarize what I'm really asking.  "Since I'm stalling at the top of the lift, would taking the SLDL or Romanian DL out on Monday and instead working banded Deadlifts in doubles starting with 50-60% with around #100-#150 added to the top of the lockout with the focus on bar speed be a good idea, or would I be setting myself backwards?"

...pros and cons.  That's what I want.  (I know you have a notebook with this exact question written down somewhere!)

EDIT: Additional info; the last time I did rack pulls from pin 1, I did #375x18.  My favorite bar (a black oxide York...great little bar) now has a decent camber to it.  All of the assistance work is due to my trying to get into the 105kg class with my weight.  I'm currently under 190 by a few lbs...so I'm using 5/3/1 for Powerlifting "Off-season Hypertrophy" Template.  I'm not just pulling this crap out of thin air.

[Steve Low]

Ahhh ok

Since I'm stalling at the top of the lift, would taking the SLDL or Romanian DL out on Monday and instead working banded Deadlifts in doubles starting with 50-60% with around #100-#150 added to the top of the lockout with the focus on bar speed be a good idea, or would I be setting myself backwards?

Do you know what precisely are you weak link muscles?

Pretty much all pros in your case though. If not, this is a good general solution because SLDL specifically does not target the top of the movement in anything... just hip hinging motion, but mostly hammies. And RDL is a target for the hammies and glutes.

Banded DLs will focus moreso on the top of the position since that's the most resistance, leaving you with less fatigue from the start of the position to really emphasize. In fact, the more bands you can use the better it will be because of the bias towards the when they are stretched more at the top of the movement.

The real "con" is to figure out the the optimal amount of bands vs weights, but in general I would try to aim for about 12-15 reps if assistance and looking to add some hypertrophy.

I would not focus on speed in this case, emphasize the motor pattern you want to work, and then build up to heavy weight/resistance and use the bands ot bias.

Speed is good for the start, but when bar speed starts to slow down near the top it won't emphasize the quality you want which is to be able to maintain force output and grind out the rest of the rep. So don't focus on speed, focus on the top portion rep grind which band biasing will help. Obviously, you're going to accelerate the rep through anyway and bands will definitely help with doing it through the whole thing, so it's probably a moot point.

Honestly, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to add in some weighted barbell hip thrusts on top of this.

[Joe Brock]

Do you know what precisely are you weak link muscles?

The real "con" is to figure out the the optimal amount of bands vs weights, but in general I would try to aim for about 12-15 reps if assistance and looking to add some hypertrophy.

I would not focus on speed in this case, emphasize the motor pattern you want to work, and then build up to heavy weight/resistance and use the bands ot bias.

Speed is good for the start, but when bar speed starts to slow down near the top it won't emphasize the quality you want which is to be able to maintain force output and grind out the rest of the rep. So don't focus on speed, focus on the top portion rep grind which band biasing will help. Obviously, you're going to accelerate the rep through anyway and bands will definitely help with doing it through the whole thing, so it's probably a moot point.

Honestly, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to add in some weighted barbell hip thrusts on top of this.

3 step Response:
No sir, I don't know what my weak links are in this case.  It has me confused because I've never had an issue with lockout using a conventional stance, and really, the lockout should be very similar in both.  I was under the assumption that I simply might not be maintaining the same kind of force/velocity curve.

This is really what I was thinking regarding the banded DL, and wanted to make certain that I wasn't missing something by throwing out what I consider inferior assistance/supplemental work for SPP in favor of a lift where the difficulty would be focused on my weak-baby-child lockout issues.

I've never really played with hip thrusts before, but due to the looks that I'm certain to get when I start working on my "luvvin" form, I'll at least give it a shot.  (I actually want a video of my lifting partners when I bust one set of these out for the first time.  It'll be me yelling something along the lines of "It's time for MAX EFFORT THRUSTIN'!" )  It looks like those would be pretty similar to a weighted Reverse Hyper, so I may see about rotating the two if time or recovery become an issue.  I'm always game to try new things.

I appreciate your input on this one.  I'll go back to Louie Simmons' work on amount of bands recommended vs. weight on the bar vs. total volume lifted; this should give me a decent ball-park to work from regarding the ratios.  I'll perhaps play with it a little one way or the other (and log the results carefully) to see if I am getting what I'm looking for out of it.

[Steve Low]

Sounds good.

Usually the top part of the lift you need the extra hip extension strength so I would usually guess glutes,... but you never know.

Conventional DL issues off the floor are either quads or glutes so that may fit when you compare sumo style to that.

[Joe Brock]

Update:

Today, we pulled ME Deadlifts with double mini bands (approx an extra #110 at lockout), and I managed #435 at lockout.  I'll be dialing that back and working about 50% of it next Monday.  The tension creates a pretty terrible fear-inducing pull back towards the ground.  It does make it a speed lift, and it's not something that you have to think about after the first few sets.  I noticed that I pulled quicker to avoid grinding the top for any longer than was necessary.  Seems to get the job done pretty well.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Steve Low]

Will be interesting to see the results another month or two

[Joe Brock]

After this change, I've made some changes to my overall program to allow for some speed work on the powerlifts.

On Monday, I do speed pulls in 12 sets of doubles at 40-60% of the 1RM before squatting.
On Thursday, I do banded squats in 10 sets of doubles at 40-60% of 1RM before deadlifting.
On Friday, I do banded bench in 8 sets of triples before OHPress.  Same percentages.

So (for example using my Deadlift) I'll hit one month of #155+4 mini bands, then the next month #195+4 mini bands, and finally #235+4 mini bands; before I figure a new macro-cycle off of wherever my deadlift appears to be.

This is an idea that we bounced around in the gym and with Clint Darden, who's a pretty decent strongman.  (If you have time, his YouTube channel has some real gems in it...if he'll ever get to the freaking point...as he's pretty enamored with talking to a camera.)  It works in waves that relate to the total max lift.  They're kept static for a month, and then you bump the percentage by 10% until it hits 60%, and then you reset back to 40% of your most recent max single or rep-max.

I've been playing with it so far since that first pull, and added in 5x10 GoodMornings #155 after DL.  My posture has gotten amazing, as it hurts to slump.

All of that being said, I've dropped #15 of bodyweight and managed to hit a banded bench press that was #25 over my previous max.  I hadn't done a big single on bench for about 3 months, but that puts me about #10 ahead of where I expected to be.  This seems to work with 5/3/1 very well, but only for the lifters that have significant experience.  The smaller guys simply get crushed under the bands.  Everyone has seen a very similar carryover to their raw lifts from the banded, lightened, and geared lifts.

FYI

[Steve Low]

Interesting.

Any particular reason why you're utilizing only sets of doubles and triples?

[Joe Brock]

The easy answer is "that's what Louie Simmons said works best..."

The long answer:  My game plan involves making sure that the speed is increased through sets from Warm-ups to a 1RM.  In order to do this, the targeted fibers for speed lifts are the type-II (a, x, b) units.  Since the focus in on utilizing 100% (or whatever is actually possible) of effort with a weight that's less than 60% of a 1RM, bar speed is the final determining factor of successful lifting.  (Also, break out your Practical Programming book...and take note of what Rip says are the first muscle fibers to want to work.)  We've noticed that bar speed tends to ramp up after the first lift, but falls off drastically after more than 2 lower-body lifts, or 3 upper-body ones.  It's as if the first lift takes more focus, and by using a slight stretch reflex on the second or third ones, you simply blast the weight up.

I'm not discounting hypertrophy work, but it belongs AFTER the main lift.  The speed work not only works to it's best potential when well rested, but also seems to add to total recruitment in the heavier lifts.  You get accustomed to trying to move the bar fast, and that carries over well to more maximal strength work.

For Example: TODAY

Warm Up
Speed deadlifts (50% of 1RM Deadlift+bands)
Regular 5/3/1 5-rep Week (5, 5, 5+)  Hitting 10 reps on my last set (which is a VERY good sign)
Drop the weight to 60% of 1RM and do 5 sets of 10 reps on box squats.

Now, the last 50 squats lead to that feeling that you can only get from high-volume squat work (IE: Praying that someone will just kill you and then it can all come to an end) and is designed to be hypertrophy specific.  This seems to be about the right balance, as I don't think that I could add anything else to my workload without suffering from it by the time that deadlift rolls around on Thursday.

Make sense to you?

[Glacier Stone]

You forgot your one? or was it two? sets of sprints after finding Jesus on the Squat Box.

[Joe Brock]

.... Sprints were not really happening today.  Stiff-legged foot flopping, perhaps. 

[Steve Low]

Oh I agree with the reasoning as it's solid. Was just wondering the particular implementation of it. Fatigue is an interesting thing to play with

[Scott Eustice]

Joe, what length sprints/ how many/ how fast do you do them? Just wondering how in the hell you can recover fast enough to do serious sprints.

Because I know that I could never sprint well for at least a full day, sometimes two, after squatting or deadlifting.

And, more importantly, is there some way you can teach me your black magic recovery powers?

[Joe Brock]

Joe, what length sprints/ how many/ how fast do you do them? Just wondering how in the hell you can recover fast enough to do serious sprints.

This is where we have to look at priorities.  I sprint to assist lifts, not to be a fantastic sprinter.  I planned on doing 5 50 yard sprints, but on the 2nd one, had a very notable cramp in my right hamstring...and that's a good sign that I'm done.  The speed is "as fast as I can go for today," which is very subjective to how hard I pushed during squatting.  Today, a small child could have outran me with little difficulty.

And, more importantly, is there some way you can teach me your black magic recovery powers?

It comes with time under tension, and adequate rest, nutrition, and supplementation.  I have spent enough time doing this to know when to push, and when to just bust out the basics and call it a day.  There's no black magic that can take the place of decent experience, and experience comes from bad decisions.