Topic: Maximum Triceps Hypertrophy

[Joe Brock]

Here's one that I could use some opinions on, and will consider if someone comes up with a fantastic idea that I haven't.

I have a stall on both Overhead press and Bench, and I'm relatively certain that it's underdeveloped triceps brachii that's the issue.  At the point where either lift really transitions from the delts and traps to tris, I begin to "grind" the lift.  (It slows WAY down.)  If I can move the weight through the 2-3 inches of travel where this occurs, the lift will lock out.

I'm looking for an assistance exercise, rep scheme to run as an addition to 5/3/1 BBB (which gives me 1 extra lift for bench and 1 extra lift for OHPress day) to maximize the growth in the triceps.  It needs to be "functional hypertrophy," so multi-joint compounds are perfectly acceptable.  Once I come to a decision on what to change, I plan to run it for at least 3 phases to give it some time to prove results.

I realize that this is pretty minor, but these lifts are right in the middle of Intermediate level, while my squats and deads are advanced per BW.  (Referring to the Rippetoe/SS charts.)  For the log press, I need these to go up at my prescribed #5 per phase.

I'm currently thinking about finishing either day off with 5 sets of 10-15 reps of:
Weighted Deep Dips
JM Presses (perhaps using C.A.T.)
Lying Down Triceps Extensions
CG Floor Pressing

Do you guys want to take a shot at this?  Help me choose something, or tell me what you think of the advantages/disadvantages of each assistance.

[Mr.WWII]

The full lying down extensions are probably best overall for hypertrophy, since they use a complete range of motion and hit the triceps from both joints as well as avoid using the chest. Although close-grip floor presses are most specific to the actual movement deficit you face. You're just gonna do all of those exercises for assistance?

[Steven Low]

Dips will make your triceps hy00ge

That's how my arms are bigger than my calves.

[Joe Brock]

You're just gonna do all of those exercises for assistance?

No.  I'm only going to do two of them.  I know that they all would work to some degree, just trying to get "as effective as possible."

The beauty of the BBB assistance protocol is that you must choose ONLY one assistance per lift.  The other assistance per day/main lift is a lighter version of the main movement with a 5x10 set/rep scheme.  It's all about "bang for your buck."  I put a pretty good deal of thought into it, as I'm dedicating 1/4 year to whatever it is that I end up doing.

I'm leaning towards dips for bench day, because they pull in the Anterior Deltoid, Pectoralis Major & Minor, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, and Latissimus Dorsi to some degree.  I'd assume that since I have a 72-hour window between upper body workouts, more stuff involved is better.

[Gabe Arnold]

Skull Crushers.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shrQv0XwxaM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shrQv0XwxaM</a>

[Steven Low]

skullcrushers will rape your triceps tendons so bad.... dips waaaaay better

[Joe Brock]

I was under the assumption that Gabe was joking.  (If not, just play along with me, bro. )

Currently, I'm leaning towards JM Pressing on OH Press day, dips on Bench.  I get bored if everything starts to look similar, and that would give me a chance to do some body-weight+weight work at least once a week.

So, assume dips are a given.  With the JM's, what are your thoughts on compensatory acceleration training for an assistance?  I can see them being useful for breaking sticking points, but with the downside that 50 total reps a day for an accessory exercise being pushed that hard might be hell on the shoulder joints.

IE: Chains or NO Chains?

[Steven Low]

Are you at the point where you need something like compensatory acceleration type training?

KISS tends to be the most effective...

[Joe Brock]

Not really.  I'm sitting right in the middle of Intermediate/Advanced with both lifts (±12# with OHP being slightly better).

Fine...I won't do it (*sniffle*), but chains are just so barbarian-esque.    The setup would take more time, so it's really not worth the effort at this stage in my growth.

So I guess my final question is "JM Presses or Lying Down Ext.?"  (Once this is settled, I'll begin to implement them and dips in my next phase, which begins Monday.)

[Steven Low]

There's nothing wrong with doing extra stuff that you can help.... but I would add that near the end of your cycle when you start plateauing or something.

JM presses look fine to me... will get some good carry over to bench as well

[Joe Brock]

I like JM Pressing, too.

I'll try these for the next 3 months, and hopefully will bust through the next few phases without stalling on these lifts.  Perhaps, I can get on the APK GUNz show.

[KC Parsons]

I'm leaning towards dips for bench day, because they pull in the Anterior Deltoid, Pectoralis Major & Minor, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, and Latissimus Dorsi to some degree.

This is the problem actually. With the heavy amount of pressing you're doing (and have done), you've gotten plenty of chance for compounds to do their work to give the growth in the triceps. Clearly at this point they haven't been enough since you're noticing the imbalance. Best time to keep it as isolative as possible. Your goal is to aim to have hit 30-60 effective reps for triceps (especially aim for 60) by the end of the workout.

So for example, if you're hitting 5x5 for Overhead Press for the day, you're getting an effective 25 reps total with triceps involvement (for shoulders/rotator cuff also of course). So with the isolations, you could add 4 sets of 8 (also factoring in logical rep range for isolations and whatnot) for another collective 32 reps. This would bring you to a total of 57 reps, noting that you're hitting the heavier weight, lower rep range for your strength work for the neural gains and myofib hypertrophy bias and whatnot, while hitting the slightly lighter weight, slightly higher rep range for your isolations for the slightly more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy bias & capillarity, complete fiber activation, and joint preservation and whatnot. You also followed proper hierarchy by doing the heavy compound strength work first and isolations second.


Again, basically just factor in all the set/rep ranges, hierarchy, and exercise selection like you would normally, but aim for a total of 60 reps for triceps.

[KC Parsons]

^^Reread today and edited. I was a little out of it when I first posted apparently because after reviewing it had a lot of typos and unclear parts.

[David Glass]

Joe,

Here are my 2 cents:

I used to do a ton of skull crushers back in my bodybuilding days... after a loooong absence (15+ years) and having resumed training 4 years ago, I have never needed to isolate training for the triceps; bear with me while I digress a bit to make a point on awesome dips are.

These are my press and bench press records, which are probably not a big deal, but bear in mind I'll be 40 in a couple of months:

bench press: 330#
press: 195#

Not superstar marks by any stretch of the imagination, but interesting nonetheless because of the fact that when I was in my 20s, my training revolved around maximizing the bench press (I used to compete), but back then, despite being much younger, my record was 20# lighter at 310#.

Before I used to train Bench every 5 days, and I did a massive amount of isolated tricep exercises, having skull crushers at its core.

Nowadays I will train bench once every other week, alternating with flies (solely for aesthetic purposes), inclined flies once a week, press once a week and do weighted ring dips once a week.

The irony is, I train much less than I did back when I was in my 20s, and although my training really revolves around squatting, I haven't stagnated. I think the fact that I'm training less has a lot to do with it (resting more), but I also think the dips have played an enormous role in this. Just food for thought

[Joe Brock]

To KC and David,
Thanks for the feedback.  I've pretty well settled on dips for OH Press day, and JM's for Bench day.  It just seems simple, and the tri's are isolated to a "higher" degree, even if the JM Presses are a semi-compound.

KC:  I'll take what you're saying to heart, as long as we can see eye-to-eye on the fact that your magical number of 60 (give or take a few) must be considered across potential body parts being used in a compound.  So assuming that I was doing bench, I agree that with my 5x10 set/rep scheme for assistance, I'll be hitting about the same quantity.  I NEVER get 25 reps for circa-max 5/3/1 work.  Warm-up sets don't count, I assume.

So, then my question (if it's not clear enough, as I have difficulty expressing my ideas clearly) is, "Do you have an issue with using multiple isolations for building a compound lift in addition to doing the main movement under heavy loads?"

[KC Parsons]

To KC and David,
Thanks for the feedback.  I've pretty well settled on dips for OH Press day, and JM's for Bench day.  It just seems simple, and the tri's are isolated to a "higher" degree, even if the JM Presses are a semi-compound.

KC:  I'll take what you're saying to heart, as long as we can see eye-to-eye on the fact that your magical number of 60 (give or take a few) must be considered across potential body parts being used in a compound.  So assuming that I was doing bench, I agree that with my 5x10 set/rep scheme for assistance, I'll be hitting about the same quantity.  I NEVER get 25 reps for circa-max 5/3/1 work.  Warm-up sets don't count, I assume.

So, then my question (if it's not clear enough, as I have difficulty expressing my ideas clearly) is, "Do you have an issue with using multiple isolations for building a compound lift in addition to doing the main movement under heavy loads?"

Definitely counts for all bodyparts involved. So your bench press would count for chest, shoulder, and triceps. You definitely had the right idea as warm-up sets don't count, only the effective work sets.

If we took SS's 3x5 for bench for example (again, ignoring the warm-ups), there's 15 effective reps for chest, shoulder, and triceps (yes the neck, abs, lats, even biceps do contribute but we'll only count the main movers). If someone wanted to add isolations on the triceps to help further press and bench progress in SS (a damn good idea, btw), they'd aim to get at least 15 effective isolations (so even a good 2x8 on triceps specific work would be helpful) all the way up to 45 more.

And I have absolutely no issue with that; I encourage it. If compounds are being done right (heavy, progressive overload is focus, first in the work out, etc etc etc) then by all means, add in isolation to support it after the fact. Having an overarching number of 30-60 reps helps really define what else needs to be added to finish it up for the specific hypertrophy.

Post-script Edit: I think you're also asking if adding in light benching after the heavy benching is acceptable too. Yes, definitely! If you're doing say a peak of single-triple bench, then drop to 2x5, then throw down to 3x8, you've not only hit different pathways for different gains but also achieved a total of 35-38 reps so if hypertrophy in those muscles is the aim then that's great!

[Joe Brock]

Well, then Mr. Parsons...we see eye-to-eye on how to best attack the weakest point of the Press.

I'll keep you updated on how this works out in about 3 months.

[KC Parsons]

Well, then Mr. Parsons...we see eye-to-eye on how to best attack the weakest point of the Press.

I'll keep you updated on how this works out in about 3 months.

Awesome, can't wait!

And for addedc clarification, using the compounds in a lighter range for added hypertrophy is fine but in cases where there could be an imbalance its usually a good idea to do some sort of more isolative work. Now since they'll be more fatigue based, you tend to round out the work a little better but nonetheless iof triceps are clearly lagging make sure to do some sort of regular isolative work like you planned to