Topic: abductors/adductors

[Cole Mueller]

I know working all muscles in the legs is important, but is their any specific benefit to working the abductors and adductors? Like what movements or moves in parkour specificly use these muscles?

[TheBigLOL]

It is more important to stretch this area often so you don't pull your groin.  I would use a basic straddle stretch.  Plus most compound leg exercises such as the barbell squat will work this area anyways, so I wouldn't worry about specifically working these muscles. 

[Steven Low]

These will be worked in squats and deadlifts...... do these exercises with weights

[Cole Mueller]

I know to stretch them, and I know how to work them, but like what parkour "moves" would use these muscles, that was what I was wondering.

[Scott Eustice]

Both of these muscles allow the patella to track properly in squatting motions. That translates to all jumps and landings.

If these muscles are not balanced against the rest of the legs, you will probably hurt your knees. Most commonly, the adductors (on the inside) are weak and tight. This weakness leads to the knees caving inward as the quadriceps overcompensate.

[Gabe Arnold]

^ What he said.

Anything involving the legs really. Especially any kind of cutting moves, going from side to side. For instance, a lazy or thief vault will use these muscle groups to push/pull and scissor kick the legs over the obstacle. When you finish a climb-up on a wall you might pull one leg up first and use your foot to help push yourself up all the way - that will engage the adductors to a degree.

[Mr.WWII]

Both of these muscles allow the patella to track properly in squatting motions. That translates to all jumps and landings.

If these muscles are not balanced against the rest of the legs, you will probably hurt your knees. Most commonly, the adductors (on the inside) are weak and tight. This weakness leads to the knees caving inward as the quadriceps overcompensate.

Actually, the adductors are tight and overactive, it's the abductors that are usually too weak, hence why they can't help rotate the leg back out out when the knees cave in

[Joe Brock]

"The role of the adductors in the squat is a bit more difficult to understand. One sure indication of weak adductors is the inability to keep your knees out during the squat, a symptom that sometimes gets interpreted as weak ab-ductors, the muscles on the outside of the hip. So a good understanding of the anatomy here is important.  Note that all these muscles essentially originate in the groin area and insert on the medial femur area. As such, their function will be to shorten the distance between these two points. When you squat, or simply squat down, notice what happens to the distance between these two points." Mark Rippetoe-Starting Strength.

Sorry Chris.  I had to point this one out.

[Scott Eustice]

"In an attempt to make up for the lack of adductor function, his knees are moving closer together so that the quadriceps can to the job instead. When the quads are forced to pick up the role of the adductors, they have to move to an adducted position to do so. - Mark Rippetoe Starting Strength

Here's the anatomy behind it. I also thought that the abductors were my problem when I squatted, but I read SS and it set me right!

[Steven Low]

"The role of the adductors in the squat is a bit more difficult to understand. One sure indication of weak adductors is the inability to keep your knees out during the squat, a symptom that sometimes gets interpreted as weak ab-ductors, the muscles on the outside of the hip. So a good understanding of the anatomy here is important.  Note that all these muscles essentially originate in the groin area and insert on the medial femur area. As such, their function will be to shorten the distance between these two points. When you squat, or simply squat down, notice what happens to the distance between these two points." Mark Rippetoe-Starting Strength.

Sorry Chris.  I had to point this one out.

Actually it's both.

Caving knees is typically a sign of poor hip external rotation control which is modulated by the deep butt muscles, and gluteus maximus

However, it can also be due to weak adductors (specifically, weak magnus since its a hip extensor). If you're lacking hip extension strength, especially down in the hole and are getting as much as you can from your glutes/hamstrings, your knees will want to cave in to help shorten adductor magnus to increase its ability to exert force. Additionally, since a caved knee position increases activity of vastus lateralis, the biggest quad muscle... more force and increase quad activation.

Thus, if your caving is due to poor control it can be due to gluteals & medius

If it's  more force based it's likely due to weak adductors and overall hip extensors (hams & glutes too) + increased activation of vastus lateralis (quad). This is also why caving knees tends to exacerbate patellofemoral syndromes.

[Mr.WWII]

Yea, I guess I'm thinking more of the glutes and how they externally rotate the hip

[Joe Brock]

If it's  more force based it's likely due to weak adductors and overall hip extensors (hams & glutes too) + increased activation of vastus lateralis (quad). This is also why caving knees tends to exacerbate patellofemoral syndromes.

Hey, I just learned something!!! 

So really, it can be caused by weak adductors, weak abductors, weak hamstrings, or weak glutes?  I choose to file this info under "lower body too weak," and will use the phrase "weak in the knees" for an explanation.  This revolves back to my theory that 90% of form issues are caused by weakness/too much gravity on the weights.

EDIT: I hold strongly to the "it's not all that complicated" mentality on most of the issues that have come up with me and the guys I lift with.

[Steven Low]

Most injuries can be caused by many different reasons... so I mean it's not like this is something that new.  I just hesitate to say it's "always this" that is jacking stuff up or whatnot because sometimes it's not

ok.... time to get back to editting this book -_-

[SDGWarr10r]

I'm deadlifting now, but due to a lack of equipment I can't do back squats. I may be able to manage something for front squats though.

How big of a contributor are the adductors to a front squat since you're stance is narrower than a back squat?

[Scott Eustice]

I'm in the exact same situation as you, having to front squat instead of back.

My stance isn't significantly narrower in a front squat, so I get the same amount of adductor work.

However, if your stance is significantly narrower, you probably would lose some adductor work, since your femurs are more easily in position.

But why is your squat stance changing from front squats of back squats? Unless I'm wrong and my stance should be narrower. I was under the impression that the stance should be the same in both front and back squats.

your back should be more upright in a front squat, so you'll get less torque on the lower back but less hip activation. I though that was the most significant difference. that and using the upper back to keep the bar racked on the shoulders.

[SDGWarr10r]

I could be completely wrong as I haven't yet started doing them, but my impression from reading SS was that your stance is narrower in a front squat. I believe there is a picture of the difference in stances in the assistance exercises section.

It's also very possible I misread something or missed something that said you can vary your stance width.

[Joe Brock]

MY stance is far narrower in a front squat.  Assuming that you specialize in "picking things up and putting them down" (thanks for this phrase Planet Fitness), you'll actually see some widening of your natural squat stance over time.  As the hips become stronger, you'll naturally compensate for the additional strength available from the hips by widening your feet and pressing outwards.  According to Louie Simmons, there is no difference in quadriceps action in a wide squat or a narrow one.  More muscles recruited=greater force against Mean Ole' Mr. Gravity.

On the subject of adductor/abductor/quadriceps function, I ran across a quote from Siff and Verkhosansky in their book "Supertraining" that is very applicable:
"Later the issue of torque for activities involving several joints will be examined to caution us against casual analysis of joint action according to the standards of functional anatomy.  We will then learn that we are not necessarily justified in assuming that a given muscle will produce the same joint action in a multi-joint task if the anatomy charts show that it produces a certain action (such as flexion) when only that joint is involved in the movement.  We will also learn that, in a multi-joint (multi-articular) tasks, a muscle may exert a profound effect over a joint which is not crossed by that muscle."-pg 14.

[Scott Eustice]

Joe,

Some of my friends are starting to squat, and I need some help correcting their form.

However, some of them are leaning too far forward and aren't able to squat any significant amount of weight, because they can't hold on in the front squat position. They also aren't letting their knees move forward, as they have been taught to keep the knees back over the ankle in the Smith machine. Finally a few others are coming onto the toes. Do you know any cues to fix these problems?

I tried saying drive through the heels, but that didn't seem to click for all of them. for the others, telling them to keep their torso upright and let the knees move forward naturally didn't work either. How should I rephrase this and are there any drills that will teach good form?

[Joe Brock]

I'd have to see the squats to really tell you what was going on.  There are so many possibilities of what "could" be happening.  Many low bar (back) squats actually involve a good deal of forward lean in order to keep the bar centered over the arches of the feet.  The same rules apply regarding knees being out, as the thighs will smash into the abdomen and generally prevent breaking parallel if they aren't creating a "pocket" to sit into...but it sounds like you're speaking directly about front squats, which don't permit much forward lean at all.

The "put a board under the heel" drill might help some.  Front squats are actually more comfortable with some elevation of the heels.  (That's why Olympic squat shoes are wedge soled.)

If they are letting the bar dip too far below a "cleaned" position, you can have them rest the bar across the front delts and cross the right hand onto the left shoulder and left hand on right shoulder.  This normally help people keep the bar close enough to the torso to stay centered over the heels.

Probably, since they're just getting into it, though, is that it's a confidence issue.  It's slightly scary for some people to put a bar in front of their neck and lean backwards to put the weight into the heels.  Give it time, correct things like coming onto the toes, but allow them to become accustomed to the feel of lighter weights.

[Scott Eustice]

Yeah, I've had a few use the cross arm grip wile they work on their shoulder/ wrist flexibility. That seems to be preventing them from maintaining the clean position. But If it might help them stay upright, maybe I'll let them use it permanently. Are there any long-term advantages or disadvantages to either grip?

I'll try the "board under the heels" drill also. Thanks! And I'll be less aggressive and focus on getting form before adding any weight.