Topic: What's the problem?

[Steven Low]

The burn is like if you ran up a hill and your legs start burning. Or if you sprinted for 400m and your "lungs" started burning. That burn is OK to push through if you have good form.

Pain is NOT OK to push though. Like if you jammed your finger, sprained your ankle, smashed your head into something, your fell on your shoulder and then try to do something, etc.

Pain is much different from muscular acidosis.

[Nick Fernandez]

Sounds great. I think I've got most of the major questions out of the way so far, thanks to you guys. Although I'll still probably ask some questions like I have been while I progress, I'll restate my goals:

15 Pull-ups
15 Dips
1 Muscle-up (added goal, but would most likely would come through with above goals)
Handstand press, shooting for... "traditional"? (Tuck planche to handstand)

Of course, around the 10-15 side of things I'd probably start adding weight, I'll see how it goes. It's been pretty rough trying to go towards the "end of 2011" pull-up/dip goals because I've hardly gotten enough training in, with every time so far I've made any progress I catch a cold, and by the time I've had an "exercise withdrawal" of about a week my allergies come back. Along with schoolwork, high school IB Diploma Program here . But there are no excuses, I'm just going to do my best.

And bam. You're set for now as this will encompass a shit-ton of effective strength work for you. With time we can add in some other things such as L-sits and planche progressions along with the levers (front and back), IF desired or needed. Don't worry about that yet and just stick it hard to those 3 major components of upper body bodyweight strength. Let us know how it goes for you

Not sure when I should update on this, probably when I've achieved my goals? Because I do want to add in some of those to my training eventually. I know that the wall handstand isn't effective enough to get me all the way up to handstand presses, so maybe once I've worked up to some decent tuck planche I'll post that, since I'm pretty close to it anyway. I'll also update when I get SS, because I might need some more specifications on barbell equipment.

Just for the sake of it,
I'm 5'9
About 130-135 lbs.

[Nick Fernandez]

Another couple of questions.. *sigh*

Handstands: I'm not sure I'm making any progress with these. What I'm doing as of now is kicking up with my fingertips about 1.0-1.5 inches from the wall and locking my shoulders and arms so they become the "earmuffs". I just hold as long as possible and as many times as possible until I can't hold it for more than 10 seconds.  So far I've been doing this every strength day to try to make it more effective, but it feels like I'm not improving because the muscles never feel sore the following days. I think it might be either:

1.) I'm doing too many or too few sets of these. I do around 3-5 sets for avg. 30 seconds
2.) Form might be reducing strength required? My hands, like I said, are usually an inch from the wall so my head doesn't hit, and my legs are constantly straight and flexed, but my back may be arched out. I'm not in that "banana" sort of shape, but I know that most of my back isn't making contact with the wall and might be taking some of the tension off my shoulders.

I know I'm not strong enough to do any HSPUs, though. So I'll still be sticking to these.

Dips: I'm probably WAYYY too weak in this area. With the parallel bar (two chairs) dips I can barely handle going down and my form goes wacky. It's the same even doing negatives; my shoulders pull back and I end up putting this uncomfortable pressure on my collar bones. I was considering that, with my progress on dips, should I just focus on doing wall dips instead? What I did one time was do the dips as normally would, but as barefoot I would place one toe on one of the grooves/wedges in this brick wall, so it would probably be considered assisted dips. It's probably assisting me too much if I can do about 7-15 on the first couple of sets, so my second consideration is getting some grippy shoes and doing wall dips and dragging my feet along, so the tread will slow me on the way down. From there I think I could progress from using both shoes, then one, then independent wall dips.

What do you guys think?

[Steven Low]

You're working wall handstands?

Are you focusing on good body form? If not, what's the point?

You can also practice freestanding handstands against the wall as well...


If you can't do dips well then do them in doubles and singles and work at least 15 per training day... work your way up as you get better. Also, work slow eccentrics if youre having trouble still.

[Nick Fernandez]

Working wall handstands (currently), pull-ups, and dips. Basically following KC's post from the first page because they're based on my goals. Since one of my goals is a handstand press, he recommended doing those until they don't become

And yes, I am working on good form. When I'm up against the wall I make sure it's the same position I would be if I weren't having my balance supported. I work kicking away from the wall, too, when I'm either not doing it on the ground or around the end of my wall handstands. The question is whether I need to change something in my handstand work so that it's more effective.

By doubles and singles you mean instead of trying to do a whole set, do 1-2, stop, do another 1 or 2 dips, stop, and so on?

Also, work slow eccentrics if youre having trouble still.

Sorry, had to Google this. Is this the same idea, aside from the added weight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG5TCsySHw
Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19n9I6YR7eA&feature=related

I'm occasionally switching between the parallel dips and wall dips, mostly because I don't get to use my wall sometimes. But what do you think about how I considered modifying the wall dips?

[KC Parsons]

Working wall handstands (currently), pull-ups, and dips. Basically following KC's post from the first page because they're based on my goals. Since one of my goals is a handstand press, he recommended doing those until they don't become

And yes, I am working on good form. When I'm up against the wall I make sure it's the same position I would be if I weren't having my balance supported. I work kicking away from the wall, too, when I'm either not doing it on the ground or around the end of my wall handstands. The question is whether I need to change something in my handstand work so that it's more effective.

By doubles and singles you mean instead of trying to do a whole set, do 1-2, stop, do another 1 or 2 dips, stop, and so on?

Sorry, had to Google this. Is this the same idea, aside from the added weight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG5TCsySHw
Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19n9I6YR7eA&feature=related

I'm occasionally switching between the parallel dips and wall dips, mostly because I don't get to use my wall sometimes. But what do you think about how I considered modifying the wall dips?

Eccentric dips: the latter video you posted. The idea of working specifically on eccentrics (outside of like tendonitis rehab or the like) is that you can work with an intensity HIGHER than your 1RM (which is typically thought of as the highest intensity/heaviest weight you'd be able to use). It's good at developing skill/strength at a SPECIFIC exercise (such as dips), though don't get me wrong: you can see some pretty bad ass hypertrophy if the context of everything else is right.

For a clear cut example to make this more concrete, imagine you could do one single dip with 50 lbs added to you, but no more than that one single dip. You also couldn't do a single dip with 55 lbs. 50 lbs is more or less your 1RM (one repetition maximum) intensity/weight.

When working eccentrics, you can work WELL beyond this (75 lbs wouldn't be a stretch) but keep in mind that a) it can be rougher on the joints, b) can require a lot of recovery, c) the lowering speed should be uniform [as in not lowering slowly at the start of the movement but then rocketing through the bottompart of the movement] and d) is only particularly effective if the eccentric can even be done slowly and controlled in the first place.

Bear in mind, too, that you don't have to limit yourself to JUST eccentric work. In the above example, that trainee could do a heavy negative or few with the attached 75 lbs, then drop to say 30 lbs and do sets of 8 (just as an example - numbers are fairly arbitrary).


As far as handstand work, you seem to be on the right path just remember this: with stomach against the wall, when you go to kick away to hold a freestanding handstand be sure to pull your hips away from the wall first to vertically align them with the shoulders/wrists and THEN bring your feet away from the wall. Understand that if you're locked out tight in the shoulder and elbow properly that the wrists do the vast majority of the work to control you, so be as strict as you can on using the forearms to balance and not swaying all over everywhere else

[Steven Low]

Pretty much what KC said

[Nick Fernandez]

Thanks for clarifying . I'll do eccentric dips as an alternative if the double/single dips don't work for me. I know of course you're not trying to say I should add on 50 lbs, but so the idea is to have controlled lowering speed in order to make this effective? Sounds very similar to doing a negative but jumping back up.

KC, is there any benchmark I should be going for with my handstand progress? I know I must be doing them properly since most of the work is in my forearms and wrists. Should I be headed for a certain time while holding the handstand against the wall and freestanding?

Thanks.

[Steven Low]

Go for a minute against the wall, and start to work free standing too

[Nick Fernandez]

Doing wall dips has been VERY DIFFERENT from parallel bar dips. With my feet on the wall I usually end up popping out anywhere between 6-10 dips in one set. I'm trying to figure out how to make that more difficult, but so far I've only let the tips of my shoes hit the wall and attempting to make my hands "flat" on the wall insetad of overgripping, which actually makes it more difficult somehow.

Would it actually be better to go this route because I'm actually directly working towards wall dips? I know that the "parallel bar" chair dips are a lot more difficult than these but I'm hoping that wall dips will work enough for me, even though I like variation.

No matter what I do to go into a handstand against the wall (no, my head isn't sticking out), kicking up and stomach facing the wall, my whole body is straight up until my upper back which angles out. As in, my body is practically straight, but my upper back/shoulders never go close to the wall.
Like this is the wall, and this is me: |\  . Doesn't fix whether I place my hands right up against the wall or a few inches away. For now I just go stomach against the wall even though it's a tad bit more dangerous but effective, but is it probably just a strength issue that my body won't commit to staying straight?

[Steven Low]

Put something in your lap for the wall dips. Honestly though I would recommend doing regular dip eccentrics or assisted instead... much better

Not having a straight handstand can be for a lot of reasons. Could be tight lats, pecs, pec minor, shoulders not flexible enough, thoracic spine too rounded, core not tight, etc.

Focus on all of these areas.

[Nick Fernandez]

Go for a minute against the wall, and start to work free standing too

Was checking up on this thread and saw this, and I'm pretty much at this point with handstands. I can go for on average a minute against the wall, and have become pretty much addicted to handstands. I've been working on free standing handstands a lot and they're becoming pretty familiar when it comes to at least kicking up into them and holding them with good form.... but at the moment I'm starting to shop for my Starting Strength stuff with the money I got over the holidays.

i'm not sure if I can actually afford a cage with the budget I'm on atm, and while I haven't found an olympic bar, I've seen plenty of 2" plates. I figured I'd just save some extra money not actually ordering SS on Amazon, but using whatever free online version there was. What i'm really worried about is how I'm going to handle squats if I can't get something to make them safe. For now it just seems I can only afford the olympic bar, plates, and the bench to go with it, and I'm wondring if there's some way I can use the bench as a cage, if that's possible?

I really want to get this weight training thing rolling, and I'm not sure how my goals will be affected if I'm doing a totally different routine, although I think I've seen some people still transitioning into it while doing pull-ups/dips and the like. For the most part I've honestly been pretty inactive for a couple weeks since I assumed I'd start lifting soon, but I'm not sure if there's any point in what I'm doing right now once I switch over. Should I just stick with what I'm doing (unless the handstand work changes, based on my progress above) and strictly follow the book once I have the weight station set up?

Edit: Rambling post, yeah...sorry.

[Steven Low]

If you have an area to dump the weight that's fine... you don't NEED a rack. As long as you have a stand for the weight its fine

[Nick Fernandez]

That sounds perfect, thanks!

[Nick Fernandez]

By the way, I forgot to ask about progressing with my handstand press goal.....

Now that I can go ~1m against the wall, should I be adding any planche or HSPU progression?

[Steven Low]

You should be working towards freestanding handstands.....

And HSPUs if you so desire.

Planche is a diffferent subset of exercise that you can also train if you want

[Nick Fernandez]

You should be working towards freestanding handstands.....

And HSPUs if you so desire.

Planche is a diffferent subset of exercise that you can also train if you want

Of course! I do freestanding handstand attempts almost every day, with or without the wall.

Does it matter whether I train one or the other HSPUs/Planche? I'm sure I could use either since my goal "handstand press" is to press inot a handstand from a tuck planche. I thought that I was supposed to add something once I hit the 1 minute goal on handstands, because supposedly any longer is less effective.

Not sure how to start, either, can only assume I should start doing HSPU negatives?

[Steven Low]

If you can do a handstand against the wall for 60s, but can't yet do a free standing handstand for any amount of time you should focus all your effort into that.

Sure, you can do both hspus and planche... depends on your goals.

Just make sure you have a balanced routine....

I don't want to sound harsh but after you finish a goal then add something else in. If you have no idea what you are doing I would suggest re-reading many of the programming articles in the OP.

[Nick Fernandez]

Not harsh at all, sorry. I know how to add to the pull-ups and dips but I was mislead by some other fitness threads here saying to work on planche and/or HSPUs based on similar goals....but I wanted to be sure.

I can hold a handstand by myself around 7-10 seconds, so it's not as big of an issue.

Suppose I need to balance my routine if I'm adding both....will do.