Topic: What's the problem?

[Nick Fernandez]

This has been bugging me for a few weeks now, and I thought it's become pretty important to ask for help. These past few weeks my exercise routine has just been less than progressive and a little sloppy. I'm not sure if this is some sort of plateau, since I don't know what it's felt like, but in most of the workouts that I've been performing I seem to, about halfway through, have my muscles become completely numb. The strange thing is, it causes me to only feel that "muscle failure" burn/pain in the first few sets of my routine and the rest of the way I can't go on with the same kind of energy. It feels like my body and muscles cooled down and reversed the part of warming up. For example, I'll do different kinds of pushups for the first ten to thirty minutes after warming up and stretching. The next half, I'll feel completely numb in the area, with slight "muscle failure" feeling, but feeling completely beat and unable to do any more pushups without going on my knees. I thought that I'd become familiar with the movements, so up until today I've had a two-week unplanned break.  Just finishing my workout after that two week break, nothing's changed.

This is really ruining my progress, I need help before I waste my time only to find out I'm stuck at 1-3 pullups after working out and conditioning for 3 months now.

[Joe Brock]

C6H12O6 to 2CH3CH(OH)COOH + 2 ATP...perhaps.

What is your diet like?

[KC Parsons]

Can you post what your program is specifically?

[Nick Fernandez]

C6H12O6 to 2CH3CH(OH)COOH + 2 ATP...perhaps.

What is your diet like?

I'm pretty sure that translates to how many servings of something I have a day, like carbs, etc, or your at the end means you're joking, can't tell, . I can definitely post my diet, I mostly do NOT stick to "this type of food for Monday, then x food for Wednesday", it's more like eating but sticking to guidelines.

Can you post what your program is specifically?

I'm actually using P90X as a beginner's exercise routine. So it will go like this for a few weeks:
Day 1: Chest & Back, Ab Ripper X (which I was referring to as the exercise I did the same day I posted this)
Day 2: Plyometrics
Day 3: Shoulders & Arms, Ab Ripper X
Day 4: Yoga
Day 5: Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Day 6: Kenpo X (Cardio through martial arts)
Day 7: Rest or "X Stretch"

Then for the next 3-4 weeks, if without a "recovery week", the routine changes to:
Day 1: Chest, Shoulders, & Triceps, Ab Ripper X
Day 2: Plyometrics
Day 3: Back & Biceps, Ab Ripper X
Day 4: Yoga X
Day 5: Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Day 6: Kenpo X
Day 7: Rest or "X Stretch"

It's mostly a mix of bodyweight exercises and weights, like Chest & Back, where I only use a pull-up bar and pushup bars/stands and weights for a couple of exercises for back, such as back rows and moves like that. Weights are also used for biceps/triceps exercises as well as for some exercises in the Legs & Back exercise.

[Scott Eustice]

Just be warned, most people on the forum don't like programs like P90X for beginners, with good reason. You should get a solid weightlifting program, like Starting Strength, so that you can build up your strength and power. Also, imagine how much stronger you will be if you squat heavy weights 3 times a week than if you squat 100 times with 5 pounds in each hand once a week. Sprint training is also useful for parkour. Specific arm work like bicep curls or skullcrushers are not that useful for parkour at all. The "cardio" benefits of a program like P90X is not going to carry over to parkour very much, because parkour is an anaerobic, "sprinting," activity. The glucose to pyruvate reaction that Joe is the primary energy source for your muscles in the anaerobic mode. So, pretty much, you need to find a good strength training program and do it 3 times a week. Off days from working out are good for parkour skill work. Read the sticky.

[Nick Fernandez]

Just be warned, most people on the forum don't like programs like P90X for beginners, with good reason. You should get a solid weightlifting program, like Starting Strength, so that you can build up your strength and power. Also, imagine how much stronger you will be if you squat heavy weights 3 times a week than if you squat 100 times with 5 pounds in each hand once a week. Sprint training is also useful for parkour. Specific arm work like bicep curls or skullcrushers are not that useful for parkour at all. The "cardio" benefits of a program like P90X is not going to carry over to parkour very much, because parkour is an anaerobic, "sprinting," activity. The glucose to pyruvate reaction that Joe is the primary energy source for your muscles in the anaerobic mode. So, pretty much, you need to find a good strength training program and do it 3 times a week. Off days from working out are good for parkour skill work. Read the sticky.

The reason I have P90X is because my dad decided to do it, and I had no alternatives like going to a gym and no knowledge about exercising. I know that a lot of people are against P90X, but what I've gathered from it, it's like the conditioning for the conditioning. You have to start branching off and creating your own routine and what works effectively. I don't think I have a budget to get more equipment and a new program that everyone on this forum talks about, but this wasn't the main point of this topic. I feel like I don't need to be a perfectionist on every aspect of parkour, it should be a discipline, not something I need to get a college degree in. I thought the whole motto was "Keep it simple, stupid." Unless my exercise alternative makes a large difference in comparison to the strength I would gain doing something like Starting Strength.

I'm guessing it's because the slogan that P90X uses is "Get ripped". There's probably a difference in being ripped versus being strong & conditioned. If it's going to make a +100% difference in my strength, you can lead me to some other parkour-related routine or more beneficial program, but I perform P90X because I can't perform enough of the exercises used such as DemonDrills or Parkour Conditioning to be effective.

Side note, where you said I would be much stronger if I squatted heavy weights as opposed to light weights once a week, the Plyometrics routine is specifically working legs. I assumed that jumping and using your legs translated to doing heavy weight squats, and became effective in parkour because we learn to land safely and on our toes. The same week, the Legs & Back routine appears, but it's not a light weights exercise. I use dumbells around 10-20 each hand for different kinds of squats, lunges, and the uses without weights are the back part of the exercise and wall squats.

I'm not defensive about P90X, but just wanted to clear up some things about what the program is like and hopefully people can reply based on this information.

[Joe Brock]

I appreciate the clarification, but you also have to realize that when I am opposed to something, I know why...

...such as:

p90x is based on "bodybuilding light" where a vegan is taking you through a series of muscular contractions designed to cause a "designer hypertrophy" by suggesting brilliant ideas such as "8-10 reps for gaining muscle, 12-15 reps for 'tone'."  First of all, tone doesn't exist.  There are merely higher and lower levels of bodyfat.  Secondly, bodybuilding can be done better (as in 8x8 routines and German Volume Training), but these things don't really address strength.  The plyometrics that you're doing are actually just an extended cardio program that is on par with LSD (long slow distance) training, because of the amount of time being invested into an increased heart-rate.  They really aren't plyometrics, and most people doing them will not see any benefit other than getting into a little bit better "shape."  Working out isn't training.  Working out doesn't prepare you for training, and actually, because of the volume of repetitive exercises, you're more likely to take away from potential gains from parkour and suffer minor injuries in the process.

Just press play, and bring it!!!..and when you're suffering from the issues that you have previously mentioned, that should be your first indication that something is very wrong.  Are you getting stronger?  If you're really wanting to make gains, then I am totally down for pull-ups (perhaps the only thing in p90x worth having)...but there are much faster, less time-consuming, far more drastic ways to get it done.

Let us know your goals, and we'll do what we can to help.

[Nick Fernandez]

I have indeed gotten stronger, but particularly not in the pull-up category. When I originally started, I assumed I had good form and because of my age and my metabolism, I also thought that I could get away with eating whatever without losing efficiency. Because of this, my back strength never drastically improved. I did my assisted pull-ups incorrectly by putting my foot too low on the chair and pretty much stopped when everyone else on the program did, without getting any "muscle failure."

The ideas that they give about 8-10 or 12-15 reps on exercises is not about muscle mass vs. tone, but more like becoming more effective in increasing lean muscle through 8-10 reps, but only getting slightly more muscle  mass on 12-15 reps and acquiring "muscular endurance." That's what it said in the book that comes with it, but generally isn't presented that way in the actual DVDs.

Thirdly, I do notice that plyometric exercises tend to increase my heart rate out of any of the exercises in the program, although my legs used to be sore A LOT in the beginning afterwards. But are weightlifting exercises like deadlifts, squats, etc., like in Starting Strength supposedly easier to translate into the movements we use for parkour?

I'm not entirely sure about specific program-oriented goals, like being able to do X amount of weight for X sets, but I just want the end goal to be able to complete the more strength-based movements of parkour and freerunning, such as the climb-up and maybe something like a press to handstand.. So maybe I can turn the climb-up motion into 10-15 pullups and 10-15 dips. Currently I can perform 3 pull-ups from a dead hang position.

P90X was like an introduction to exercising and working out. I never knew what part was the bicep or the tricep, or what the abdominals muscles did. Some of the main reasons I picked up my dad's DVD was because I felt I needed to catch up with the fitness of everyone around me, and in order to begin my way through parkour. Some benefits I got from P90X was a lot of balance and coordination from the yoga. It also allowed me to be able to put my entire hand over my foot when I stretch my hamstrings. It's one of the things I also thought directly benefited the physical requirements of parkour, being able to be in a position that requires a lot of balancing and strength.

Anyway, I certainly DO feel stronger. I remember I time where I could barely hold up a full jug of milk with one hand. Guess what, I can now .  But with programs like Starting Strength, with exercises all including barbells, it doesn't look like a complete full body workout, excluding your back and abdominals. But when there's all this information and "X is better than Y", comparison, it's hard to figure out what the good news is and what's not. What supposedly benefits the needs of parkour and what hinders them has already become a little hard to differentiate. I don't need to be a perfectionist, so I'm not going to become too complex and just "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

[Joe Brock]

The beauty of the "old school" power-lifts and Oly lifting is that it isn't exactly apparent what's being involved with their execution.  A concentration curl works the biceps, but a deep low-bar squat works so many different muscles at once.  Until you've actually done them, it doesn't really register.  A deadlift is amazing for your back and abdominal muscles, even if it looks like you're just "picking something up."  The muscles required to pull something off of the floor when it weighs twice+ what you do are rather amazing.

I'm not saying that you've not gotten stronger at all, but rather, that you've experienced what a great many people who get into "working out" experience.  You would have seen results from ANYTHING, but that doesn't make the program optimal.  It's called the "novice effect," which is a term that I stole from Mark Rippetoe.  Utilizing this, and much more practical training, you can make amazing improvements in strength and conditioning for a short period of time.

I'm done bashing on p90x, for now.  Spend time thinking about what you're wanting to gain, organize that into specific goals, and then get back to us. 

[KC Parsons]

Goals:

I'm not entirely sure about specific program-oriented goals, like being able to do X amount of weight for X sets, but I just want the end goal to be able to complete the more strength-based movements of parkour and freerunning, such as the climb-up and maybe something like a press to handstand.. So maybe I can turn the climb-up motion into 10-15 pullups and 10-15 dips. Currently I can perform 3 pull-ups from a dead hang position.

Current Programming:

I'm actually using P90X as a beginner's exercise routine. So it will go like this for a few weeks:
Day 1: Chest & Back, Ab Ripper X (which I was referring to as the exercise I did the same day I posted this)
Day 2: Plyometrics
Day 3: Shoulders & Arms, Ab Ripper X
Day 4: Yoga
Day 5: Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Day 6: Kenpo X (Cardio through martial arts)
Day 7: Rest or "X Stretch"

Then for the next 3-4 weeks, if without a "recovery week", the routine changes to:
Day 1: Chest, Shoulders, & Triceps, Ab Ripper X
Day 2: Plyometrics
Day 3: Back & Biceps, Ab Ripper X
Day 4: Yoga X
Day 5: Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Day 6: Kenpo X
Day 7: Rest or "X Stretch"

My verdict:

The Yoga and Stretch are probably just fine. Both are things that are 100% intended to be bodyweight based and have good flexibility and awareness benefits. There's no illusion of building strength meanwhile doing endurance-based work.

I recommend continuing with those 2 for 2-3 days out of the week, especially with the stretch on days off. This is especially true if you feel that you feel a lot better doing the stretch video (as in it's not too intense; it really is still a rest day)

As far as lower body, you're probably better off focusing on the power work when you train your parkour until you can get some real weights. Instead of doing the "plyometrics" that P90x will have you do, simply save that leg energy for high jumps and powerful vaults, etc.

Upper body is where you can focus more bodyweight strength work, and I recommend you begin with something along these lines:
Aim for 2-4 days out of the week. Being strength-based, make sure you're fresh for it (so if you want to train parkour that same day that's fine, but make sure you do this work first as to not drain yourself prior).

Handstandswill become your ultimate hard-on from now on. Start by simply holding the position with your stomach against the wall. Lock your elbows so your arms are straight and shrug/elevate your shoulders so that you're aiming to make your shoulders like earmuffs.

As long as this still feels very intense, consider it strength work and really drill it in on those 2-4 days you're training and rest from it on the others. Once it becomes more familiar and easier on you, continue to train it as essentially skill work on your days off, and on the strength days aim to kick off of the wall.

Move your hips away from the wall first to line up with your hands, then gently pull your feet away after. If your entire arm and shoulder chain is locked out (like it should be), most of the work will actually be in your forearms. You'll learn to press down or pull up at the wrists to balance yourself.

It will be annoying as f#ck until you can find that sweet spot of balance, but it's also one of the most satisfying feelings when you do get it. As tough as that can get from all the struggling for balance, it becomes essentially strength work again (which is why it's on the actual training days).
This will keep you busy with that for a while so we'll go from there.

Pullups are limited because you're stuck with 3 at a time at most. Negatives are your bff here. Aim for 5-8 repetitions total per set, and 2-4 sets (vary the sets based on how you're feeling).

So, complete as many as you can (keep form clean), and make up the rest of the reps with negatives. I also recommend dabbling in chin-ups and as such will suggest you switch back and forth. So if you train Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday, and you start with pullups on monday, then do chinups on Weds., pullups on Fri., and chins on Saturday. You get the idea :]

Over time, you'll be doing 4 full reps with 1-4 negatives, then 5 full reps with up to 3 negatives, etc. Before you know it you'll be at a solid 4x8 on full reps and be kicking ass.

Dips I'm not sure how many you can do, but simply follow the same approach as the pulls/chins. If you need some variance, alternate between straight bar dips and parallel bars dips.


And bam. You're set for now as this will encompass a shit-ton of effective strength work for you. With time we can add in some other things such as L-sits and planche progressions along with the levers (front and back), IF desired or needed. Don't worry about that yet and just stick it hard to those 3 major components of upper body bodyweight strength. Let us know how it goes for you

[Joe Brock]

I like it.  We can call this the "KC Special for Conditioning to Condition."

It keeps it much more simple than what you were doing, and will actually carry you further towards your goals.  Plus, you'll be setting up the groundwork for much more advanced skills that you may want to include later.

Edit:  I feel like a moron for not realizing that your goals were in the midst of a huge block of text.  My bad.  You have to put it in a numbered list for me...

[Nick Fernandez]

Edit:  I feel like a moron for not realizing that your goals were in the midst of a huge block of text.  My bad.  You have to put it in a numbered list for me...

I was going to edit my post and say that I didn't do a very good job of organizing it...that's what I get for trying to answer a bunch of questions at once.

@KC, I like the simplicity of the handstands, dips, and pullups... and I appreciate and thanks for the help, but nothing else besides what you mentioned in the posts for a training routine including parkour skill work? Wouldn't there be an imbalance in my muscular strength if I didn't work other parts of my body? I'm not really reading it properly, I think you're just trying to assist me with my goals. But I realized I didn't have many goals, just what I struggle with. I already have a lot of balance in my feet, never felt any aching muscles after a parkour session at the gym (except learning a back handspring, ow). I've struggled with pull-ups and maybe want to strive towards "isometric holds" like planches and levers. It would help tremendously with my diving kong vaults, which I've struggled with most likely to due strength. Practically the only reason I started "working out" was to be ready for parkour. Besides what you gave to me about achieving my goals, I wanted to say something about Starting Strength.

The benefits of Starting Strength, like Joe said, are the simple act of powerlifting heavier weights. I think you're saying that I don't need fancy variations of push-ups, bicep curls, or anything, but just the fact you're lifting heavy weights and using simple muscle contractions will do the job in less time and possibly better.

  Working out isn't training.  Working out doesn't prepare you for training, and actually, because of the volume of repetitive exercises, you're more likely to take away from potential gains from parkour and suffer minor injuries in the process.

Also saying that what some other people in this topic are saying that I'm not gaining as much strength rather than endurance. I think that may be true in P90X, for things like push-ups, we must keep track of how many we did the previous time and how we've improved in the amount with good form.

Is Starting Strength possible to perform at home, and does it exclude any muscle groups in the process, such as back muscles, and does it qualify as parkour conditioning? Should I work this in coordination with what KC said and whatever else it misses? I can probably use some money I have saved to buy the program, but I'm not sure about the equipment. After I watched some videos it looked like something that should be performed in a gym, for safety reasons and the heavy lifting. I don't have any kind of material that would let me put a barbell back on a rack when I'm done with a set or a bench to bench press.

I'm becoming moderately confused on what I should be doing in order to improve my strength. Weightlifting in conjuction with actual parkour? Should I have a powerlifting routine while also exercising to achieve personal physical goals such, as an example, a 10 second tuck planche, while keeping parkour skills maintained to even the balance? Or just start with achieving my goals first and coming back to my overall fitness later?

Thanks for the help, everyone, but I'm seriously trying to figure out whether I should start doing Demon Drills types of exercise or get into weightlifting.

[Ian William]

alot of advice here that I should probably take into account. Thanks for everything, fellas. I got some new goals to tend to now!

[KC Parsons]

In general, we'd recommend weights (specifically compounds barbell lifts) for lower body strength improvement while using intelligent bodyweight training for the upper body.

I'm saying that you should train the 3 following things (not in order of importance):
1) Yoga and stretching as light off-day work for flexibility mainly
2) Parkour training as it were.. Mainly it comes down to a lot of just technique practice but that ends up being very power/plyoe/explosive based just because the nature of parkour
3) The bodyweight upper body strength work I listed above

That's all I'd worry about for now. If you happen to get access to equipment that would allow for squats, olympic lifts, and deadlifts, then you can incorporate those in at that point

[Ian William]

In general, we'd recommend weights (specifically compounds barbell lifts) for lower body strength improvement while using intelligent bodyweight training for the upper body.

I'm saying that you should train the 3 following things (not in order of importance):
1) Yoga and stretching as light off-day work for flexibility mainly
2) Parkour training as it were.. Mainly it comes down to a lot of just technique practice but that ends up being very power/plyoe/explosive based just because the nature of parkour
3) The bodyweight upper body strength work I listed above

That's all I'd worry about for now. If you happen to get access to equipment that would allow for squats, olympic lifts, and deadlifts, then you can incorporate those in at that point

Thank ya', sir!

[Nick Fernandez]

Thanks for the clarification, and now that I'm almost ready to go, I have some questions about the pull-ups and dips:

Pull-ups- I know that negatives involve starting at the top of the pull-up position and doing the opposite of the movement as slowly as possible. Does getting at the top mean I can jump onto the bar and do the negative, or do negatives at the end of my last possible rep? Negatives feel ineffective for me, being able to lower myself in 7-10 seconds and jumping back and able to do it again(If that's the correct way to perform negatives). Would it work if I just stuck to doing assisted pull-ups with a chair/stool at the end of my reps? If you don't know exactly how I do it, I put my foot on a step stool(about 3-4 ft high) that's far enough from the bar to put the ball of one foot on the top of it so I'm slightly able to push off of it.

Dips- I actually asked on the DemonDrills wall dips video what I should do if I can't do enough or go deep enough. He said I should go as deep as possible, but if I can't complete a full rep I should go all the way down and jump to help get back up. I don't know what this meant, but I know that my back and my triceps are probably my weakest points in my body that I need to work on and was questioning how I can make any improvement if I can only do a few dips at a time. Can you help me on how to do a progression on this?

[Joe Brock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-hdy12qDaA

Negative Dips are what it sounds like were being suggested for the Dips, and if not, then they should be.  If you do them on a wall, then same concept would apply, but the descent must be controlled.

If you can actually perform a full rep of either, then I would simply use a "grease the groove" method to get the total reps of both higher.

[KC Parsons]

Thanks for the clarification, and now that I'm almost ready to go, I have some questions about the pull-ups and dips:

Pull-ups- I know that negatives involve starting at the top of the pull-up position and doing the opposite of the movement as slowly as possible. Does getting at the top mean I can jump onto the bar and do the negative, or do negatives at the end of my last possible rep? Negatives feel ineffective for me, being able to lower myself in 7-10 seconds and jumping back and able to do it again(If that's the correct way to perform negatives). Would it work if I just stuck to doing assisted pull-ups with a chair/stool at the end of my reps? If you don't know exactly how I do it, I put my foot on a step stool(about 3-4 ft high) that's far enough from the bar to put the ball of one foot on the top of it so I'm slightly able to push off of it.

Yeah what you said was correct. You can jump up to it or step up to it, but either way the idea is to accentuate the down portion. It may seem like it's not doing much but remember the context that I listed for you to do them.

After 2-4 sets of completing 2-5 negatives on top of already doing the max amount of full motion pullups for that set, I think you may see negatives in a different light :]

Dips- I actually asked on the DemonDrills wall dips video what I should do if I can't do enough or go deep enough. He said I should go as deep as possible, but if I can't complete a full rep I should go all the way down and jump to help get back up. I don't know what this meant, but I know that my back and my triceps are probably my weakest points in my body that I need to work on and was questioning how I can make any improvement if I can only do a few dips at a time. Can you help me on how to do a progression on this?

What Joe said. The approach is the same for both the pulls/chins and straightbardips/parallelbardips.

You're aiming for 2-4 sets of 5-8 reps. Since you can't complete this with all full-range movements, you simply do as many full-range as you can for that set then fill the gap with negatives (just as you said you do them: start from the top and lower as slowly as possible; if you're getting a good 7-10 seconds then you're doing it right).

With time, the amount of full-range you're doing goes up until eventually you're completing the full prescription without the need for negatives. Then the fun really starts but we'll worry about that when you get there >:]

[Nick Fernandez]

I decided that it would be better to get some goals in here before I forget my priorities about this. They're going to be very specific:

1. By the end of 2011, I'm going to be able to do a minimum of 10 pull-ups. If I can achieve that early on, I'll move it up to 15.

2. By the end of 2011, I'm going to be able to do 15 wall dips. (by the way, can I work on these along with other triceps dips, like chair/bench/table, etc. dips as a supplement?)

[Joe Brock]

Nick,
That's what goals should look like.
You will have to play it by ear on the dips.  If you find that your sets are decreasing, then overworking the triceps may be the issue.  Otherwise, train away.