Competitions > General Discussions (Competition)
Competition in Parkour
Shamas:
--- Quote from: M2. on January 27, 2012, 09:41:14 AM ---Guys, I must applaud both of you for keeping your arguments well presented and mostly non-attacking. I think you have both clearly laid out your points of view and the things which you consider to be facts.
It is an interesting side topic alltogether as to what may actually be "fact" - there is a whole branch of psychology devoted to the human experience, can anything be a fact if it can only be perceived by an individual? Anyway - back to the topic.
--- End quote ---
With this being said, I lay my current arguments and points aside to leave it as is. It seems that I have been properly understood whether the audience agrees with me or not.
Thanks so much.
;D
7Erik7:
--- Quote from: M2. on January 27, 2012, 09:41:14 AM ---Guys, I must applaud both of you for keeping your arguments well presented and mostly non-attacking. I think you have both clearly laid out your points of view and the things which you consider to be facts.
It is an interesting side topic alltogether as to what may actually be "fact" - there is a whole branch of psychology devoted to the human experience, can anything be a fact if it can only be perceived by an individual? Anyway - back to the topic.
Erik, you make some great points about the values instilled by the founders and their adapt program. The books definitely came later and at least the parkour handbook has some glaring errors, but that's another topic.
What I would request of you (Erik) is this:
Can you please give me a rough timeline in your understanding of the history of parkour. When the Yamakasi formed, when it was active, who was part of it, when the name parkour was applied, please be sure to include details like Stephan, Forrest, and Dan all being part of Urban Freeflow, Dan wrote some great articles while he was there. Also include the separation of David and Sebastien - even the parts they don't like to discuss, because it happened and it too is part of history. The formation of parkour.net, the original french forums, I feel it is all important and relevant to the things you are discussing. Finally, when the national governing body was formed, when their definitions were created, etc. I feel that a timeline would answer many things which you keep trying to illustrate for people without you having to repeat the same thing over and over. I've wanted to make this timeline myself to have as an informational piece here on APK. - What do you say?
As a side note, I can say that you are incorrect about one nature of competition, I am trying out for Ninja Warrior this year, I do not like attention from crowds, I do not like to "perform" or show off, but I want to be with all my friends who are doing it. I am fairly certain that I won't win or even do all that well, but I want to be there for the sheer experience of being with the people who I care about and I'd like to be part of the experience. So, even though it is a competition, I am not going for all the reasons that you seem to think are unavoidable, I am going just to have fun and be with people, so it might as well be a jam for me, and it being a competition doesn't stop me from being able to attend it with my own goal of having fun and being with people.
--- End quote ---
I think a timelime of the history is quite hard to write in a a post. Its a quite delicate task to do that requires quite a lot of time and effort. And I don't expect many people to read this wall of text. Its funny what you mentioned it though because I am actually writing an article like this at the moment.
But a very brief history as I know it:
Georges Hérbert -> Raymond Belle -> Raymond explains parcours to David. Raymond take Chau, Williams, Katty etc. to Sarcelles to climb around, jump etc. David inspire his friends n Lisses, his friends inspire David. (ca 1987) They start to play games such as 'dont touch the lava'- like games. The group become bigger (roughly 30-40 people). They start to train serious with purely physical and mental training; doing huge amounts of repetitions, inflicting pain on themself by training with lack of sleep, food and water, doing monkeywalk in long distances, quadrupedie topless in the snow, lifting up heavy objects, throwing objects, playing volleyball with rocks etc.
Practise later became more about actucal movements (jumps vaults) especially since Williams joined since he influnced them a lot in fluidity/flow/grace. In -97 they (Yann Hnautra, Chau Belle, David Belle, Laurent Piemontesi, Sébastien Foucan, Guylain N'Guba Boyeke, Charles Perriere, Malik Diouf and Williams Belle) were asked by Davids brother to perform at the public fire service in Paris. They called themself Yamakasi. They called what they did L'art du deplacement. The French tv opened up their eyes for them and actually presented it in a positive way for once. They were asked to perform at Notre Dame De Paris, in Paris. They were concerned how the show would demostrate add, as acrobatics, performance etc.. another problem was that it wouldnt demostrate the values and work behind it. David and Sebastien left the group. Not only because of this but also because they wanted to walk diffrent paths: Seb wanted to teach more than training, and David wated to become an actor. After the show Luc Besson opened up his eyes for the group.
David changed the name to parkour and Sebastien changed it to freerunning under the development of Jump London. It was never a separate dicipline. The principles, philosohy and values was really the same. It was basicly other names for 'art du deplacement. For Seb, freerunning was his 'parkour evolution', a name for doing parkour and incoperating break dance, capoiera, acrobatics, martial arts - his way, everything he did, was freerunning. It was a name for his way. Quite diffrent than freerunning today that seems to be more like acrobatics brought outdoors. For David, parkour was a certain method of training he got from his father (very particular according to Steph), but at the same time, he also told people it was important to have fun besides the really hardcore training, and to do other things than that. For instance, he received a black belt in Kung Fu in India. He was also into acrobatics but it was never the focus. For Sebastien, it was never the focus either, for the rest of the group it was never the focus either.
David released Speed Air Man as a showreel for Spiderman. Debates started about 'efficient 'movements. . (funny enough, no one ever stated it was ''forbidden'', David just stated that its not really a part of parkour in one of these early 97 (i think) 10min documentary hence it was never the focus, for either Seb or anyone else in the former Yamakasi group. It was stricly there for fun.) Parkour vs freerunning debates started.
Stephane was trained by David for 4 years. Dan came in contact with parkour via Ez, and forrest via Seb Foucan. Le Singe est de Retour documentary with Steph was made by Julie Angel. Steph wanted to influence the parkour community and Ez. Positive Feature Programme; Jump Westmister is created with Eugene Minogue. Steph moved to Thailand for a while because he was concerned with UF and the general development of parkour. He thought that it didnt represent parkour properly, and that it was to much focus on the brand UF than the actual dicipline. He wanted to represent the true practising he learned from David. He left UF. Dan and Forrest left UF aswell. Julie Angel (slamcamspam at youtube) left aswell. Parkour Coaching was created. Then renamed to Parkour Generations. Jump Westminster became highly successfull. Sport England and Westminster Council became involved. A parkour park in Westminster was built, and the National Governing Body was created. Some of the members of the Yamakasi were impressed by the documentary. They showed it in Lisses. Autorithies started to coporate. Majestic Force was born. Major of Lisses started to coporate with Majestic Force.
An even more brief documentary with Steph:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1AxUPPcF8
Regardings whats fact and not, I am not including experience. Everyone experience parkour diffrently simply because its not a completely defined pattern to follow besides the principle and values that defines it. Its an invidual way that gives people freedom to express themself. Therefore everyone experience it diffrently, its means everything sometimes and nothing at other times. But thats another story. Its more phycological. What I defines as parkour, and not something else, is what was founded in France by the Yamakasi and got the name parkour, add, or freerunning. This include their principles and values. This is what (if anything) that defines it, and not something else. I may seem like a stubborn, but really, I try to keep as close as I possible can to the real practising, and in that, competition doesn't have a place and it never had. This is a fact because it can be verified. It was simply developed in that way. If people go agianst the very core principles I can't simply say its parkour, and def inly not that they represent it in a good way.
Mark Toorock:
Erik, this is really a great job thanks!!
What I feel is really important is for as many people as possible to contribute to the timeline, a collections of various sources that may become regarded as "fact", since not all the input will agree, the more input it has from more participants, the closer it would likely be to the truth.
I personally feel it would be very beneficial to have a much more detailed breakdown of '97 to present, especially what happened between 97-2003 When Rush hour aired and UF was born, and especially when Parkour Coaching started, when Majestic force was formed, and I'd personally be interested to know more about what the members of the Yamakasi were doing during the time before Majestic Force. I would really like to go learn from them directly as well. When I originally contacted people in 2003 there were not a lot of people who seemed willing to teach to others, Sebastien was open and helped teach at our (UF's) PK Seben event which was our 7th indoor training and teaching session. I met with Thomas in 2004 and got to train with him just for a day at his house in Tours. Unfortunately I wasn't able to meet many other people back then, so I personally don't have a really good idea of what was going on outside of London. I think the first time I met Stephane, Johann was at "Electric Storm which was November 6 2003. We all trained together after their performance, they were amazing, just years ahead even back then!
While recounting some memories, I found this interview - which was EZ talking to Seb in a hotel room while we were meeting with Eidos for the Freerunnig video game. Kiell, EZ, Seb, and I were all there. http://parkourpedia.com/about/interviews-and-articles-of-interest/interview-with-sebastian-foucan
The other thing I'll say about history is that it changes, I know that is not logical and should not be correct, but things change, people's opinions even of their own actions change, so if I ask Sebastien in 2002 what he felt about an event in 2001 and if I ask him today, his answer may be different, even though he is the same person.
7Erik7:
--- Quote from: M2. on January 31, 2012, 04:59:19 PM ---Erik, this is really a great job thanks!!
What I feel is really important is for as many people as possible to contribute to the timeline, a collections of various sources that may become regarded as "fact", since not all the input will agree, the more input it has from more participants, the closer it would likely be to the truth.
I personally feel it would be very beneficial to have a much more detailed breakdown of '97 to present, especially what happened between 97-2003 When Rush hour aired and UF was born, and especially when Parkour Coaching started, when Majestic force was formed, and I'd personally be interested to know more about what the members of the Yamakasi were doing during the time before Majestic Force. I would really like to go learn from them directly as well. When I originally contacted people in 2003 there were not a lot of people who seemed willing to teach to others, Sebastien was open and helped teach at our (UF's) PK Seben event which was our 7th indoor training and teaching session. I met with Thomas in 2004 and got to train with him just for a day at his house in Tours. Unfortunately I wasn't able to meet many other people back then, so I personally don't have a really good idea of what was going on outside of London. I think the first time I met Stephane, Johann was at "Electric Storm which was November 6 2003. We all trained together after their performance, they were amazing, just years ahead even back then!
While recounting some memories, I found this interview - which was EZ talking to Seb in a hotel room while we were meeting with Eidos for the Freerunnig video game. Kiell, EZ, Seb, and I were all there. http://parkourpedia.com/about/interviews-and-articles-of-interest/interview-with-sebastian-foucan
The other thing I'll say about history is that it changes, I know that is not logical and should not be correct, but things change, people's opinions even of their own actions change, so if I ask Sebastien in 2002 what he felt about an event in 2001 and if I ask him today, his answer may be different, even though he is the same person.
--- End quote ---
The history of parkour is clearly intresting and as far as I know, there aren't any articles that really goes to the bottom of it. The article that I am writing will be based on various books, authors, and interviews. The maingoal is to keep each statement to have a source so it can be tracked.
Regarding competitions; if course we can question it. We can also question if it is a fact that the United States is called the Unites States. We can question whenever 1 + 1 equals 2 with the argument that everything is changing, that the history always change, and that each invidual experience and see things diffrently. We can question whenever parkour is based on movements or not. We can question whenever it competetive or not. But that points to a very unrealistic and dilusional view on life and that you're far removed from the actual reality. Whenever parkour is competetive or not cannott be answered with personal opinions, such as how each invidual experience parkour. Parkour has principles. Many people seems to forget that. Principles that were defined by the nine founders. The reason its called parkour is because it defines a certain way of training and thinking. When I say that it isn't competetive that's an opinion. What decides if this is a fact or not is whenever its in line with the reality or not. In this case its a fact because you can verify it in the history of parkour. You can study and understand the principles of it. These principles goes directly agianst competition and rather reinforce cooperation and personal training. You can also study it, understand it, and then ignore what you've just learned because it isn't in line with your personal agenda. That changes your personal principles, in doesn't change the principles in parkour.
I know that people hate that I am discussing this (my karma have dropped) but I really don't care. Must people would say its a waste of time, that you should practice and be positive instead. These are the kids who don't know what they're talking about. If people can take actions such as ''parkour'' competitions they should also be able to discuss their actions. They should be able to explain it. Especially when they label themself as Parkour / freerunning Champions, when they in reality, don't even practise the real dicipline that was born in France, or have any real clue of its history. But competitions do open up the doors for more commercial shots and boost the ego quite well. Like Livewire once said; its a way to show yourself as a professional athlete.
Jason C. Astor:
I honestly haven't read the last 100 or so posts. So I'm just throwing out an opinion on competition in Parkour.
Alright, on one side I have to say that Parkour "as I've grown to see it" is in fact very uncompetitive. To move past, over or around obstacles to get from point a-b quickly and efficiently and more importantly, to grow physically and mentally to achieve goals. This paradigm of Parkour is not the only one but it is my favorite simply because of my Taoist mentality.
On the other side, Humans ARE naturally competitive!! In order to establish Packs, Tribes, Governments or to have the Dominant female choose your DNA (giggity) man would always compete. This is simply evolution for us to want to compete. As well, competition helps practitioners of any activity discover weaknesses they formally were un aware of.
Example: I did Martial Arts for many years, got into plenty of little school fights and sparred people at my Do Jo. I thought I was a Serious Bad ass, That is until my first real fight against an actual Bad ass. I think you can guess how things went.
Another point worth making. Skateboarding was some kids in back yards having a very pure fun good time (which is awesome) But if skate boarding never turned competitive no one would ever believe a 720 could even be done or a double flip or such huge air.
The competition puts that extra drive in people which in fact helps the World. I say World because, once people see others achieving these amazing things they believe they can do it. Then everyone grows because of it.
I personally will never compete. Just not my thing, not Zen. But for anyone that does, you guys are awesome and you impress me with your crazy moves
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version