Thanks for the tidying, Stevie. I appreciate the work you're doing in this forum
Same as usual, folks. Try and read it all but if you're struggling then skip down to the part that responds to the points you made.@Caleb
You're forgetting a huge aspect of parkour training, and in my opinion the most important aspect. Control. I came into parkour already very strong, but i didn't just go out and try to hit the most massive things i could, because i still had no idea what would happen because i had no control. So i trained control on small things constantly.
I train almost every single day. About 3 days a week i train twice a day. And i Strength train 6 days a week. I have yet to see my strength training degrade my intelligence to a point that i would injure myself. Just because i can go further doesn't mean that i will. It doesn't matter how far i can go if i cant control it when i get there.
That's interesting, because in the previous discussions I've taken part in, the supporters of specialized strength training methods like weightlifting have staunchly defended the all-round physical benefits of their methods, including control.
So really then, what you're saying is that even with your previous strength training you had to start at the beginning with the simplest obstacles and take things slowly. It's obviously good when someone has the awareness to do this, however in my experience the most common route is for people to do this only after making a mistake with something big. Most people don't realize that they have to spend a lot of time working on control until they're forced to acknowledge (through an accident) that a lack of control has led to serious negative consequences for them. It's not really relevant to this thread, but I'm curious, how do you think you learned it?
If you agree that even with strength training you have to follow the same progression path with Parkour, starting with simple obstacles and progressing at the same steady rate to let your other abilities catch up, then it would seem that we're in agreement that strength training does not leave you better prepared for Parkour. The problem I describe all occur when people try and accelerate the pace of development in Parkour, and if you agree that the pace of development should still follow the development of the weakest skill then it seems we're in agreement.
Yeh, this can be true...if your training is based almost completely on what is interesting, which i was under the impression that it isn't for you.
The purpose of Parkour is to enable you to be yourself and to follow your own path continuously, to pursue your own desires. "To be and to continue".
In the short term, the things you want to do are the things that you find interesting, enjoyable. When you're planning for the long-term, the things you want to do are the things that help you improve. Parkour lets you do both at the same time. Trying to get past obstacles is interesting and enjoyable in the here and now, and it's also a very effective way of improving for the future. I think we'd all agree that Parkour is more fun at the time than lifting weights, having fun is after all the most commonly given reason for why someone practices Parkour. I happen to believe that it's also more effective at developing your abilities, so of course I train in this way. It's fun, it's effective. For me it's the ideal solution.
This ideal situation only functions when the obstacles that are interesting/fun are also the obstacles that will allow you to develop your weakest skill. I think any challenge can be fun, but I think that it's easiest for newcomers to have fun when it feels like they're improving their greatest strength. Modern society does, after all, encourage us to focus on what we're good at. I know that's how I and many others started with Parkour. The ability to find fun in challenging your weak areas relies on the idea that you need to be well-rounded, and I think that's quite an advanced point in understanding.
Being physically stronger doesn't prevent you having fun with smaller obstacles, I just think it makes it a little bit harder than it needs to be.@TR
Seriously Dave, who da phock cares? A single method of training is not right for everyone. It may work for you and maybe a few you know, but the people you know ≠ the rest of the world-wide community.
No, they are not the rest of the Parkour community, but when it comes to knowing what the method of Parkour is they are the part of the community that knows that they are talking about.
As far as becoming stronger and more powerful, not only for MYSELF, but also for Parkour. I choose to lift weights because I actually read about it, and do it, therefore I know of the benefits both on my physicality, and my every day life and tasks. Stop saying the only way to improve your everyday life and Parkour is by ONLY practicing Parkour.
I have never said that. I have stated quite categorically that almost any training method will help you live your life. My discussion has been about the best
way to train for the demands of your life, not the only
way. I think that training with real, practical tasks (which includes Parkour but is not limited to it) is the best way, not the only way.
I suppose I could have looked into those things before when I only trained Parkour, but I didn't. It didn't motivate me, or open my mind to those things.
The most difficult part of practicing Parkour at the moment is learning about all the different ways to practice it. You only develop yourself in certain ways if you train in certain ways, and as yet there is no list of all the different things you have to do in order to get all the possible benefits. It's trial and error at the moment, but if you practice Parkour in the right ways it can move you towards developing all those skills you listed.
I am not satisfied with a single method of training. I want to train Parkour. I also want to lift weights. I also want to play soccer, and football, and sprint. I think it's up to the individual how they want to train, not how YOU think they should.
What you say is not going to change my mind about what I want to train. I think it's ridiculous that you're on here spouting away attempting to tell people how to train and live their lives.
If you want to continue living your life by one method, and one method only, then that's good for you.. but don't try and push it on other people who enjoy multiple methods of training.
TR, you're mistaken. I have never tried to push one method on to anyone. I think that some methods are better than others, but I am careful to try and help people understand this themselves through explanations and demonstrations, rather than forcing people with orders or emotive persuasion. If that was what I was trying to do then I think I'd do a better job of it. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm not telling people what to do, I'm just giving information. What you do is up to you, and quite frankly I'd be disappointed if anyone changed their minds solely as a result of one of my posts.@Lonnie
Conclusion: If your Parkour training routine does not include integrated Strength Training, your program is lacking. That's a fact.
Conclusion: When integrated properly, strength training does not interfere in any way with the development of other physical skills. In fact, it's been shown to be the safest and most reliable way to maximize physical development all around.
I agree with both conclusions. However, you can train physical strength through Parkour so neither affects the topic of discussion in this thread.
The only part that I disagree with in your post is the recommending of machines and free weights, which just proves that the American Council on Exercise has a different idea of what the ultimate goals of exercise are.@NOS
I just want to understand one thing.
Why can't I just practice the physical discipline of getting from one point to another, past any manner of physical obstacles (leaving the rest of my life, metaphorical obstacles, etc. out of it), and learning to move or locomote my body through different surroundings using different methods than just the conventional methods of walking and running that are currently used by the modern world, regardless of time-urgency or purpose? Who says there isn't any mental element at all (note emphasis) in such a practice?
For the first question, you can of course do that. What you describe is a sport though, not a training discipline.
For the second question, I don't think anyone says that there would be no mental element to such a practice.
I agree, creating a separate sport for people that don't want to practice Parkour as it was intended would solve many of the issues. Talk to some people, find a new name, I'll support you all the way.
I think with a 2.x+ deadlift and squat for reps, 1.2x Bench and Bent-Rows for reps I could be considered a pretty strong guy. I can box jump 50 inches, broad jump 9 feet+. But according to Dave's impeccable logic, I should find smaller jumps boring to train then, shouldn't I? However, I would behoove him to come and look at my training approach and then say the same nonsense that strength leads to training beyond one's level. When I drill precisions, I never go beyond 6 feet (or 7 feet max), when I drill drops I never jump off 2 feet. And I don't go around seeking larger/longer jumps in my other training just because I'm strong enough to do them, most people (except impressionable teenagers, who just need direction and guidance from the right seniors) are smart enough to not try things beyond their (skill) abilities, even though they may have built a certain level of strength and physicality.
It's not that smaller jumps are boring, it's just that most people coming to Parkour find that pushing all of their boundaries together is more fun. Parkour can give you that if you're balanced.
I have never said that strength leads to training beyond one's level. The closest that I have come is to say that a physical bias to your strength makes training at your level more dangerous, because it is certain non-physical skills that keep you safe.@Joe
"Strength is more useful than weakness."-Jim Wendler
"Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind. The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been awakened to their true potential, it's impossible to turn back.
The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." - Henry Rollins
That's somewhat simplistic in places. I agree with the general principle that the mind and body are connected and that both need to be strong, but I don't think that the mind automatically becomes strong when the body is. Henry Rollins apparently does meditation to help strengthen the mind, I think it's possible to use similar methods within Parkour.
Subjectivity is overrated. Without a measurable quantity and recorded results, there can be no science. That's why this discussion continues. IT CANNOT BE QUANTIFIED. Dave says, "This makes you a better person, with stronger mental/spiritual awareness." It cannot be proven, and thus, cannot really be a point that anyone is able to disprove. That pretty much means that it will go on forever, and that we just have to accept that it is so based on subjective reasoning, that there is no counter-argument.
The need for balanced skills can be proven through direct, personal experience.
All needs can be proven only through direct, personal experiences, that make a strong connection to your internal feelings and emotions. That's what a need is. That's the source of all motivation. They are a product of who you are, the sum of all your experiences. We know that our perception of our needs changes, but it doesn't do so instantaneously and it doesn't do so solely as a result of a single exchanges of ideas. It happens when you're confronted with an idea that fits all of the experiences that you have had, and fits them better than your existing ideas. When our perception changes it is the result of a whole chain of experiences, not just one discussion.
I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should make a choice based on words alone. What I am trying to do is enable people to seek out a wider range of experiences themselves, by showing that there are other views out there. I'm trying to make it possible for people that experience something that doesn't fit with their existing ideas to see if it fits with a different perspective, rather than immediately disregarding it because popular opinion tells them to. I'm making people aware that there are people who are strong, free, happy, and who have put at least as much thought and study into their ideas as any weightlifting proponent, who take a very different view of how to prepare for life.
I think it is a mistake to dismiss things just because you can't prove them easily and conveniently. I think it is a mistake to dismiss anything without directly investigating it yourself.