Author Topic: beginner conditioning  (Read 18474 times)

Offline MedvisP

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2011, 09:06:23 PM »
that's irrelevant. All that matters is that any one of these things take time out of our lives. If one is to say that weight training HINDERS parkour training than one must also agree that good nutrition and good sleep also hinder parkour training. Eating well and weight training are both things that are not part of the parkour training method, but both help. So if you want to argue that weight training can hinder parkour training, than you better be willing to argue that eating well or sleeping also hinder parkour training. It's the same concept.





(Keep in mind that I'm not really arguing for either side, just pointing things out whenever I feel like it)
It's not the same concept at all. Sleeping/eating has never taken time away from parkour training. The comparison with parkour and lifting weights can be done because they are both training methods and generally you have to choose one over the other (on days you do parkour you probably wont lift, and on days you lift you probably wont do parkour). Since this substitution has to be made then it can be said that lifting weights takes time away from parkour training. Sure, eating and sleeping are not part of parkour, but they don't take time away from it. I've never had to choose between sleeping and parkour, or eating and parkour. It's a bad comparison, really.
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Offline Lonnie Tisdale

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2011, 09:26:50 PM »
What I would really like to see from Dave are some sources. PLEASE link to some f#cking science or something back up your claims. If triathlon athletes make use of weightlifting as part of their regular periodized training without adverse effects(http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=319) along with virtually all serious professional athletes across the board, how is parkour so different that it cant make use of this type of training as well? Lets see some arguments that arent just, "this is what I believe".
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Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2011, 09:51:17 PM »
(Keep in mind that I'm not really arguing for either side, just pointing things out whenever I feel like it)
It's not the same concept at all. Sleeping/eating has never taken time away from parkour training. The comparison with parkour and lifting weights can be done because they are both training methods and generally you have to choose one over the other (on days you do parkour you probably wont lift, and on days you lift you probably wont do parkour). Since this substitution has to be made then it can be said that lifting weights takes time away from parkour training. Sure, eating and sleeping are not part of parkour, but they don't take time away from it. I've never had to choose between sleeping and parkour, or eating and parkour. It's a bad comparison, really.

Parkour training has taken away from my parkour training much more than weight training has via overtraining, injuries, etc.  Strength training has actually allowed me to train more parkour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGJ-vaW0Uw

When faced with the stress of a life-threatening engagement, we don't rise to the occasion, we descend to our level of training.

Offline MedvisP

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2011, 11:38:58 PM »
Parkour training has taken away from my parkour training much more than weight training has via overtraining, injuries, etc.  Strength training has actually allowed me to train more parkour.

All I'm saying with that post is that comparing parkour with sleeping+eating is not the same as comparing parkour with weight lifting. The reason weight training directly takes time away from parkour is that you generally have to choose between one or the other. Let's say, for arguments sake, you do parkour 7 days a week. Now you want to do weight training one day a week, and as a result you do parkour 6 days a week (surely you're not going to lift and do parkour in the same day). More weight training directly results in having less time to do actual parkour. It's simple logic and I'm sure you can agree. Of course you can get injured and have to sit out for like two months, but the same applies for overtraining/improper techinque with weights.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 11:41:10 PM by MedvisP »
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Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2011, 12:03:03 AM »
i tend to train parkour ~2-3 days a week.  any more than 3 or 4 and the repetitive stress of this high-impact sport hinders my training.  so i supplement with no impact strength training ~2-3 days a week.  this strength training allows me to train parkour for longer, get more quality practice out of my training, and do so with less injuries. 

i don't have improper technique and i don't overtrain when lifting.  the worst injury i've had from lifting was a tension headache.

so, like i said...strength training has allowed me to train more parkour (psssst:  this means it doesn't detract from or hinder my parkour training)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGJ-vaW0Uw

When faced with the stress of a life-threatening engagement, we don't rise to the occasion, we descend to our level of training.

Offline DaveS

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2011, 03:37:19 AM »
@Mr.WWII
alright Dave, I only have one question. How does weightlifting, or any other sort of training, hinder anyone's parkour training? Doesn't school, work, hanging out, eating food, going shopping, sleeping, watching TV, going online, reading, writing all interfere with parkour training as well? Does eating well help one's parkour training? Eating well doesn't follow the same mindset as parkour afterall, so eating well must hinder parkour training. Getting a good nights sleep must also hinder parkour training, since it does not involve overcoming obstacles and a different mindset is used to go to sleep. Discussing things online and learning must also hinder parkour training, since the same mindset is not used in these things. I suppose anything else that people do besides parkour training cannot help them in parkour, because the mindset is different and therefore it hinders one's parkour training. I suggest you stop eating well, get off the computer, and stay up all night training parkour because anything else will hinder your progress, since a different mindset is used and those things do not involve overcoming obstacles.
Weightlifting hinders Parkour in two main ways. Firstly, the increased physical ability that results makes it harder to develop abilities through Parkour in the balanced way that safety (and other practicality) requires. Secondly, training in unrealistic situations teaches you unrealistic principles that adversely affect your ability to make choices in the real world (including when practicing Parkour), and encourages you to think of training as something separate from real life which reduces the practicality of all your training.

I disagree that those activities have a different mindset to that of Parkour. I think that all of them can be undertaken with the same mindset as Parkour. The desire to improve and progress by facing up to the challenges presented applies equally well to any task. I'm applying it right now to an online discussion.

@Lonnie
What I would really like to see from Dave are some sources. PLEASE link to some f#cking science or something back up your claims. If triathlon athletes make use of weightlifting as part of their regular periodized training without adverse effects(http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=319) along with virtually all serious professional athletes across the board, how is parkour so different that it cant make use of this type of training as well? Lets see some arguments that arent just, "this is what I believe".
Parkour is different because it has a different aim from all of those activities that make use of weightlifting. Parkour's aim is to help you to keep getting past all the obstacles you face in your life, whereas the aim in all the sports and athletic disciplines that use weightlifting is to deal with just a single artificially created and unrealistic situation in the best way.

I think I've explained the basic principles already. However there are no scientific studies that we can refer to on this matter because to my knowledge no one has studied the Parkour training method in this way. There are plenty of scientific studies which approach exercise from the point of view of sporting achievement, but none which look at how practical a training system is for the demands of life. I would like to think that this is because it's widely understood that practicality means training for the specific tasks you're going to be doing, but I think it's also because it's currently beyond the practical ability of any scientific study to look at and analyze a person's whole life. By it's very nature it would take more than a single scientist's working lifetime. There are other issues too. Very few people are aware of what abilities we could use, what we could achieve if we tried, and there are also very few people aware of what abilities we do use in everyday life without having to think about them. Scientific method is lagging behind individual awareness on this subject.

The evidence we're forced to use to test and evaluate a training method's overall effect on a person's life is what we ourselves know about our own lives thus far, and what we know about other people that have gone before us. I know that my own life has worked out better when I've used natural training methods rather than man-made training, and my experience of other people is that those who use natural training methods are better able to deal with the challenges they have faced. I know that some people have lead happy, effective lives using man-made methods, but I know many more who have led unhappy, unfulfilled lives. In simple terms, I'd rather be a zen master who dies in his 90s having enjoyed every day of his life and helped many people do the same, than a world-class athlete who wins many competitions and then stops training, loses all purpose in life, and dies aged 59. It is, I think, a better model.

@Tom
i tend to train parkour ~2-3 days a week.  any more than 3 or 4 and the repetitive stress of this high-impact sport hinders my training.
Parkour isn't a sport, and it doesn't have to be high-impact either. Learning to practice Parkour in all it's different ways would, I think, be a better solution than weightlifting.
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Offline Sword

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2011, 04:11:37 AM »


@LonnieParkour is different because it has a different aim from all of those activities that make use of weightlifting. Parkour's aim is to help you to keep getting past all the obstacles you face in your life, whereas the aim in all the sports and athletic disciplines that use weightlifting is to deal with just a single artificially created and unrealistic situation in the best way.

I think I've explained the basic principles already. However there are no scientific studies that we can refer to on this matter because to my knowledge no one has studied the Parkour training method in this way. There are plenty of scientific studies which approach exercise from the point of view of sporting achievement, but none which look at how practical a training system is for the demands of life. I would like to think that this is because it's widely understood that practicality means training for the specific tasks you're going to be doing, but I think it's also because it's currently beyond the practical ability of any scientific study to look at and analyze a person's whole life. By it's very nature it would take more than a single scientist's working lifetime. There are other issues too. Very few people are aware of what abilities we could use, what we could achieve if we tried, and there are also very few people aware of what abilities we do use in everyday life without having to think about them. Scientific method is lagging behind individual awareness on this subject.

The evidence we're forced to use to test and evaluate a training method's overall effect on a person's life is what we ourselves know about our own lives thus far, and what we know about other people that have gone before us. I know that my own life has worked out better when I've used natural training methods rather than man-made training, and my experience of other people is that those who use natural training methods are better able to deal with the challenges they have faced. I know that some people have lead happy, effective lives using man-made methods, but I know many more who have led unhappy, unfulfilled lives. In simple terms, I'd rather be a zen master who dies in his 90s having enjoyed every day of his life and helped many people do the same, than a world-class athlete who wins many competitions and then stops training, loses all purpose in life, and dies aged 59. It is, I think, a better model.

@TomParkour isn't a sport, and it doesn't have to be high-impact either. Learning to practice Parkour in all it's different ways would, I think, be a better solution than weightlifting.
So, the long story made short is that you have no evidence?

Offline DaveS

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2011, 05:13:43 AM »
The long story short is that there is plenty of evidence if you go out and look for it yourself, but there are no scientific studies on these points that can do all the work for you.
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Offline Sword

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2011, 05:21:57 AM »
The long story short is that there is plenty of evidence if you go out and look for it yourself, but there are no scientific studies on these points that can do all the work for you.
Without some science to back it up, it's just an opinion. You're entitled to your opinion, but you shouldn't act like it's a fact until it is one.

Offline DaveS

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2011, 06:33:40 AM »
Science does back it up. Scientific principles, that are supported by scientific studies, support the ideas about practical training that I'm explaining.

The point of disagreement here is the difference between practical training and impractical training. The same principles are involved, principles that have been proven by many studies, they are just applied to more aspects of life in practical training. It's just doing more with the same ideas.

There are no statistics to show that they do apply specifically with Parkour, and if you're philosophically minded it's always healthy to keep a certain degree of skepticism about ideas, but there is no reason for them not to apply either. Our own experiences tell us that they do.
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Offline Steve Low

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2011, 06:37:51 AM »
Sorry guys it's useless to continue this discussion.

Anyone who has weight trained before in addition to parkour training knows that it will help improve your parkour abilities.

Quote
Weightlifting hinders Parkour in two main ways. Firstly, the increased physical ability that results makes it harder to develop abilities through Parkour in the balanced way that safety (and other practicality) requires.

Makes absolutely no sense... increased strength et al. to protect your body from injuries and easily overcome obstacles more efficiently..... is somehow hindering your ability to do parkour. Right.

Quote
Secondly, training in unrealistic situations teaches you unrealistic principles that adversely affect your ability to make choices in the real world (including when practicing Parkour), and encourages you to think of training as something separate from real life which reduces the practicality of all your training.

Ahhh, so squatting (which is a functional activity by the way as everyone uses it everyday... e.g. toilet, sit down, bed, etc.) with weight is an unrealistic situation that teaches me unrealistic principles such as what?

No one is saying that squatting is going to magically teach you to learn to roll out of a landing. In fact, squatting will help improve your landings and impacts and your ability to control your muscles in such situations.

But apparently this type of training makes me somehow separate it from real life. I'm not sure I understand how.

Quote
Parkour is different because it has a different aim from all of those activities that make use of weightlifting. Parkour's aim is to help you to keep getting past all the obstacles you face in your life, whereas the aim in all the sports and athletic disciplines that use weightlifting is to deal with just a single artificially created and unrealistic situation in the best way.

So the fact that runners use weights to improve their performance and safety (when a large component of parkour is movement on our legs like running) is of no value. Right.


Alright guys i'm done here. This is a waste of time just like the other 2-3 times I've tried to argue this.
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Offline Ryan Coker

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2011, 06:46:12 AM »
The way i see it, Dave is treating parkour as more than just a physical principal, but also a philosophical one. He also seems to assume that everyone sees it in the same way. Sorry Dave, but not everyone does. I know people who do parkour for fun (GASP!) and nothing else. They don't see it philosophically, but as a way to have fun and stay in shape.

Your arguments just don't make sense to me. I feel like i haven't added to this discussion, but I feel like not many other people have either. Love you guys, but you aren't getting anywhere. :-\

Offline Sword

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2011, 07:10:26 AM »
Science does back it up. Scientific principles, that are supported by scientific studies, support the ideas about practical training that I'm explaining.
I thought you said there "are no scientific studies on these points" , but now you say there is. Why don't you share a link so we can all see what you're talking about?

Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2011, 08:00:56 AM »
@TomParkour isn't a sport, and it doesn't have to be high-impact either. Learning to practice Parkour in all it's different ways would, I think, be a better solution than weightlifting.

k
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Offline TR

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2011, 08:19:23 AM »
@TomParkour isn't a sport, and it doesn't have to be high-impact either. Learning to practice Parkour in all it's different ways would, I think, be a better solution than weightlifting.

Nuff said.

Offline Conrad Moser

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2011, 08:31:01 AM »
Don't worry, strength training is fine. Dave is the only one here who says you're doing it wrong.
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Offline Mr.WWII

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2011, 09:27:03 AM »
(Keep in mind that I'm not really arguing for either side, just pointing things out whenever I feel like it)
It's not the same concept at all. Sleeping/eating has never taken time away from parkour training. The comparison with parkour and lifting weights can be done because they are both training methods and generally you have to choose one over the other (on days you do parkour you probably wont lift, and on days you lift you probably wont do parkour). Since this substitution has to be made then it can be said that lifting weights takes time away from parkour training. Sure, eating and sleeping are not part of parkour, but they don't take time away from it. I've never had to choose between sleeping and parkour, or eating and parkour. It's a bad comparison, really.

Nope, they can totally take away time. If you stay up late doing parkour and have to wake up early for school so you only get a few hours of sleep, and you eat a bunch of crappy cheap fast food that takes no time at all to make/buy (and if you have to work less hours to afford it) then you would have to take away time from parkour training to get that extra sleep and extra prep time for good food.

And of course, you can still train parkour 7 days a week and weight train 3 days a week, it just depends what you do. You can just train balance during all the recovery times. In fact, recovery from weight training and avoiding overtraining is an obstacle itself, so according to Dave that would be highly beneficial to parkour.


Offline Stevie Leifheit

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2011, 09:32:38 AM »
Kinda thinking about locking this...can I get a second?
Weight training alongside parkour always benefits, it never takes away.


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Offline NOS - from Parkour Mumbai

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2011, 09:44:56 AM »
Seconded.
It's just going round and round in circles.

Plus, I'm sure the OP gave up on it a long time ago.

Offline DevintheNinja

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Re: beginner conditioning
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »
naw leave it
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