Author Topic: Too Many Goals...  (Read 548 times)

Offline Ryan Danks

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Too Many Goals...
« on: June 17, 2011, 09:07:20 PM »
I've been trying to formulate a training program to hit my goals, but I fear I may have too many of them. I've done Starting Strength and Stronglifts in the past. I'm not at any great numbers with them, but I'm familiar with the moves and look forward to continuing them at least a couple times a week.

As a martial artist, I want to increase my fight capacity. I also believe in using a core foundation of Parkour techniques to include in my combat training for escape strategies (I have 10 specific techniques that I've identified and added to my syllabus). Also, I want to improve my bodily appearance - primarily in getting leaner and maintaining aesthetic symmetry.

My goals aren't entirely measurable at this point, so let me see if I can nail them down.

- Run 5k in 25 min or less.
- Perform 50 Push-ups or Sit-ups without stopping
- Perform 20 pull-ups without stopping
- Drop to 10-12% body fat (around 20% now)
- Increase lower body strength to improve punching power (I assume a measured result would be in lbs on the Squat or Deadlift)
- Maintain/Improve a bodybuilding symmetry (V-taper, focusing on shoulders, chest, back and thighs while staying away from oblique/side-torso training for bodybuilding aesthetics)

I know that some of my goals (bodybuilding and reps on bodyweight exercises) don't jive well with a lot of the Crossfit guys, but they are still what I'd like to be able to do/have.

Most of what I've seen on other sites stress one or two things at a time. This site has the widest variety of training I've seen (other than Crossfit, which I can't do because of equipment restrictions and the fact that I just didn't enjoy my time with the Crossfit group for a number of reasons).

Any advice on this would be awesome.

Thanks guys.

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 10:06:57 AM »
First and foremost improving for any particular sport or activity generally the goal will be strength because endurance things come with strength much easier.

So unless you already have 2x deadlifts/squats and a high degree of strength already it would be best to work on strength and whatever skill work you need to do for your sports.

Hence, I would ditch any high repetition stuff.... for now

Most of the stronger people here can do the high rep stuff like pushups and situps and pullups that you listed and we have not trained for endurance at all.
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Offline Ryan Danks

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 03:30:03 PM »
That sounds fair.

By 2x, do you mean twice bodyweight? That's over 300 lbs for me. I'm a bit of a mesomorph, I might get too big to do parkour (knees hurt, etc).

Offline Mr.WWII

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2011, 06:58:08 PM »
That sounds fair.

By 2x, do you mean twice bodyweight? That's over 300 lbs for me. I'm a bit of a mesomorph, I might get too big to do parkour (knees hurt, etc).

While 300 may seem like a lot at this point, it really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. Really skinny guys are putting up crazy amounts of weight (and don't worry about your body type, if anything you would want all the strength you can get to move around your body weight better)

Just look at how many pretty lean dudes are moving serious weight in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3FMsW4U7I&feature=related

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2011, 09:06:04 PM »
If you don't want to get too big then don't eat for it.

you can't gain significant amounts of mass without eating to put it on.
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Offline Scott Eustice

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 10:58:33 AM »
While I am not sure how to go about strength training, and I know that it is one of the most important aspects to develop speed, and that Steven knows his stuff, for running a sub-25 5-K, I can give you my cross country summer training schedule. I am in high-school, so this is for 5-K races

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OUn5V6bV2I6OYXY0jZDLeKpYEVZHY60pjk4oggI2ZKI/edit

If you want to start this up to get a better 5-K time, you should keep up with your strength raining and slowly add in this routine. It is important to note that the first two or three weeks should be mostly LDS (oh no!) just to get used to running for a decent period of time. If you feel comfortable with your running experience (i.e. already run fairly regularly), by all means begin adding workouts from the beginning.

After around two weeks, if you are following this type of training plan, you should begin to incorporate faster, or hilly-er runs in as kind of light workouts. A "tempo run" is a run where you are picking up speed from the very beginning for the run,  at no point after the first two minutes should it feel comfortable. You should be running fast, if were talking times, if should feel a little slower than your race pace, by about 1-2 minutes. A hilly run is pretty self explanatory, you run up hills fast and never stop moving. Jog down the hills for recovery before attacking them again. Make sure that you really focus on nearly sprinting up the hills, for about 8-12 hills.

These more strenuous runs should be done once your running four to five times a week consistently, and should never be done more than three times a week. other days should be for strength training and recovery. recovery should be at a short run at LDS pace to flush your body and reduce DOMS. Lift heavy on these days.

If you want, you can also do 1 "long run" per week. This should be 10-15 minutes longer than the normal amount of time you run, and should be fairly slow. I don't really like these and never found them helpful, but many of my team-mates have made significant improvements to their times when they incorporated these into their training. Meh.

Following these instructions and continuing this type of program for about three weeks after I finished the basic summer plan, (we didn't add much time of distance, we just added tempo runs and workouts) I ran my first 5-K last year at 22:35. You might have different results, but for the times you are going for, this is a good plan.

If you seriously want to run a good 5-K, you need to get in a race. Having people around you to push you forward helps immeasurably to focus you on the race. You don't need to make it competitive if you don't want to. You can find someone to run with, and try to stick with each other to whole race. If they are obviously faster or slower than you, don't even bother as you will either gas yourself or hold yourself back. Training with a friend also make running much more enjoyable.

But keep in mind that this kind of running will almost certainly hold back your strength goals. I do it because its fun, but I understand that I could be much better at parkour and much stronger if I didn't run longer distances. Mods, please correct me if I have any wrong info about training for this!

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2011, 05:51:53 PM »
If you want to get good at the 1500-5k distance you need up really up the volume of running to focus on aerobic adaptations.

That's pretty much going to be 50-60% Vo2max getting the mileage up from like 30-40 per week probably up to 80 or more over the course of a buncha years.

But it's basically a full time thing to train for endurance so I wouldn't waste my time on that...
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Offline Scott Eustice

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2011, 06:58:27 PM »
It true that you need to spend that alot of time and effort if you are training to become extremely good at 1500m to 5k (sub 18 min), but since you are just going for a sub 25 5k, I doubt that you would need too much effort. It will certainly hold back your progress in parkour and strength training, so be aware if you decide to train for one. You could probably get your endurance upper body goals if you did this though... even though they're not all that useful.

If you run sub 27, I doubt that it would require too much effort to break 25 min. Maybe a few moths of training. If not, it would take a while to break 25, but its definitely doable. it would require so much time however, that you wouldn't be able to train much for parkour.

And Steve, I don't think you need 80 mile weeks for 5ks... that alot. We had guys running sub-19 who ran 40-50 mile weeks, and the longest any of my teammates ran was close to 60 mile weeks. He ran 17:19 as a junior in high school. So I don't think you need constant long runs to train for a 5k. The only people I know who train 80 mile weeks and above are my coaches and assistant coaches, who run half and full marathons.

Steve is right that serious endurance training is a full time venture, but if you want to do it, I say go for it.

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 06:22:06 AM »
It true that you need to spend that alot of time and effort if you are training to become extremely good at 1500m to 5k (sub 18 min), but since you are just going for a sub 25 5k, I doubt that you would need too much effort. It will certainly hold back your progress in parkour and strength training, so be aware if you decide to train for one. You could probably get your endurance upper body goals if you did this though... even though they're not all that useful.

If you run sub 27, I doubt that it would require too much effort to break 25 min. Maybe a few moths of training. If not, it would take a while to break 25, but its definitely doable. it would require so much time however, that you wouldn't be able to train much for parkour.

And Steve, I don't think you need 80 mile weeks for 5ks... that alot. We had guys running sub-19 who ran 40-50 mile weeks, and the longest any of my teammates ran was close to 60 mile weeks. He ran 17:19 as a junior in high school. So I don't think you need constant long runs to train for a 5k. The only people I know who train 80 mile weeks and above are my coaches and assistant coaches, who run half and full marathons.

Steve is right that serious endurance training is a full time venture, but if you want to do it, I say go for it.

Uhhh, no.

The best 1500m and miler of all time (also won doubles in 5000m) and great Hicham El Guerrouj... training schedule:

http://run-down.com/guests/mv_el_guerrouj.php

Notice the high degree of aerobic endurance sessions of which there are no less than 20 per week. Each of the interval aerobics are about 8000m and any of the 30-60 min runs average from about 10,000m to 20,000m

So let's go on the low side and say 10,000m per session on average. 10,000m is about 6.2 miles (5k = 3.1m) * 20 = 120mi per week minimum

This guys BEST event was the 1500m/1600m and his training volume is at least 120 miles per week. Of course, he is an elite runner and his volume was probably built up from 40 mi per week over time to that type of volume....

THAT is how much aerobic work you need for anything past 800m which is totally insane. Now do you understand?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 06:24:29 AM by Steven Low »
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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 08:15:38 AM »
While 300 may seem like a lot at this point, it really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. Really skinny guys are putting up crazy amounts of weight (and don't worry about your body type, if anything you would want all the strength you can get to move around your body weight better)

Just look at how many pretty lean dudes are moving serious weight in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3FMsW4U7I&feature=related

To add to this...  I'm 160lbs and squat close to 400 as of right now.  I'm a fairly small guy, overall.  2xBW squat is a pretty good measure for strength and won't lead to a great deal of size.
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Offline mnugghuhx

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 09:50:50 AM »
For deadlift, 2.5x or 3x bodyweight is pretty strong.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 10:11:14 AM »
3xBW is actually rather advanced for the DL.  Should take at least 2 years of training to get there.
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Offline mnugghuhx

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Re: Too Many Goals...
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 10:49:39 AM »
Agreed, a noob picking up that much weight would hurt themselves.
I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my bedroom and was in bed before the room was dark.

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