Topic: "Judging" (Rating) Videos - an idea for consideration

[Mark Toorock]

What if we start using the Pro Parkour (Jump City: Seattle) system for judging / rating freerunning videos?


I see so many videos with comments that may be correct, but aren't' useful or helpful for getting that person to improve the next time, I'm hoping this would help that.

That way we have a consistent set of language and parameters to use. That doesn't mean that any one category HAS to be important to anyone, but it means that when we give someone advice or (hopefully constructive) criticism, it can be based on a sort of language and standard that is understandable.

And even if we don't use these to "judge" videos - (and don't tell me people don't judge videos - that would be just ignorant) maybe at least building up a series of terms so that we have a common language would be a good thing.

Again, I am not trying to say what is important, if someone wants to do a video of big flip, big flip, big flip, then that's cool, do it! If someone wants to make a video with just rolls, that would be cool too - I'm merely suggesting a platform from which we can discuss this.


Execution -
-- Moves completed correctly / completely
-- Solid landings
-- Flow

Difficulty -
-- Difficulty of a single move
-- Difficulty of stringing moves together

Creativity -
-- Creative use of environment
-- Creative use of movements in that space

And for videos -
Edit - (I'm not an editor so someone else can describe these better)

Continuity - video looks continuous or at least doesn't switch back and forth between continuous and not unless used artistically
Professionalism - not that it has to look like it was done by G4, but No Comic Sans fonts, not using star wipe for every transition
Synchronization - if synched with music then it works, if not synched at least there's nothign glaringly annoying about the choice of music compared to moves, maybe "suitability of music" is a better term here?


So, please add to this idea, tear it apart, point out one that exists, etc.

Thanks! Train Hard, Train safe, make good videos

[Mark Toorock]

By the way, this wouldn't keep people from adding subjective comments about what they like / don't like, it just might be helpful if they did this part first and then added "I like the color blue more than the color red for titles"

[DevintheNinja]

This I can agree on.

When I've look at most videos I look at the fluidity of everything as a whole. By this I mean, can I watch this video without volume and still get that 0_0 face. Daniel Arroyo for example, his videos do that, as I can watch them with damn ear any music and still enjoy it.

I have more to say but im on my break at work ill come back later.

[TylerGS]

Hey, I think that's a cool idea! I for one don't like getting comments on my videos that are so rude that they're almost spam – I highly doubt anybody else likes it too. I'm definitely behind you and in support of this comment/judging system.

[Stevie Leifheit]

Ya, I think having a "standardized" platform for giving criticism would be a major help. It's always nice to just encourage the person and say "sweet vid man!", (which I'm quite guilty of), but actually having a "guide" would help a lot.

[Bogey777]

are you suggesting a way to format reply's or having this system edited into the website so you can actually "score" a video? that would be kind of cool to be able to give a video x amount of stars or what have you in all the different categories and then also add specific comments. i am also guilty of just saying sweet video.

[Micah.]

Uh... I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish with this? More elaboration, please?

All I'm getting is you want to judge/score videos based on three categories? Then have whoever watching it rate it in a comment? ..Yeah

[Mark Toorock]

@Bogey - for now just a way of formatting a reply, and we could have a guide on APK as to what the community feels are good categories and ways to scale them, we could set several exemplary videos and say "we feel this is a 10 in flow (Dancing With the obstacles) and this is a 4 (M2's unfinished sampler)" -

At a minimum, it gives us categories to discuss and some vocabulary which is consistent, which I feel could be really useful in helping people understand what others like or feel about their videos and movement (which people do now, just in all sorts of random ways and analogies which may not mean the same to everyone).

I am not suggesting this strictly as a way to "rank" videos, in other words if someone says "this is me at 3 months" then we are not going to compare the flow literally to a David Belle video, we are going to compare it to the community's experience with other people who seem to be at a similar stage to that person.

The idea here is to be encouraging people (as has always been my standpoint) but to also have a more constructive way to offer criticism and a more structured way to evaluate videos.

@Micah let me know if that clears it up for you.

[Sam Zytka]

i hate the idea, how about everyone just gives more constructive criticism? parkour is subjective and rating videos in comparison to other videos is just a bad idea, im assuming you want to rate videos so people know where they could become better, but i think overall its a bad idea and if you want to help people out more, make a call for everyone to leave more constructive comments and to actually analyze the nuances of the movements in the videos and then reflect upon them

[Mark Toorock]

@Samz, thanks for the feedback!!

Obviously there is good and bad to this, and I think you're right about what might possibly happen and what might be another solution.

What I feel is that without something more formal, people will simply continue on the way they have been, and there is no "constant reminder" to leave constructive feedback. You saying it here is perfectly correct and reasonable, but how much effect do es that have vs. if we setup something that encourages and reminds people to leave constructive and well-thought out feedback on videos?

How else might we accomplish this?

[Alec Furtado]

I agree with this. I think it will help us rate better as well as help us get better feedback. I love the inclusion on both feedback on the movement AND feedback on the videography.

I'm going to participate both immediately and then on any revisions and suggestions on what people believe to be a more helpful review format.

It's not like you would have to follow it to the "T", it's not like you can't provide the specified fields, leave one out, and/or add your own additions. It's not like you'll get in trouble for violating the standard. And as Mark said, this isn't to put in restriction on the actual movement in the videos itself, nor the editing style for that matter.

if you want to help people out more, make a call for everyone to leave more constructive comments and to actually analyze the nuances of the movements in the videos and then reflect upon them

That's what this is attempting to do. It's tips&tricks on how to give some good-er feedback imo, Mark just didn't say it that way.

[aerosfcity]

I think that the video competitions that have been going on online lately are a basic version of this.

You give it a certain amount of stars and then they get placed.

Maybe more fields with star ratings?    just 3-5 basic criteria that you could rate stars for in 3 seconds based on that initial feeling and impression.

That eliminates the 13 year old i learned parkour playing assassins creed hater comments and PK vs FR crap in the reviews.

I'm going to participate both immediately and then on any revisions and suggestions on what people believe to be a more helpful review format.

haha i dont know why but that made me laugh. 

[max eisenberg]

 theres nothing wrong with asking for help but, putting out a 4 minute video full of sloppy form and rushed moves when you could have brought something much more refined to the table after a year or two more is wasteful.

its just a bit redundant to continuously remind new people to be mindful of posture and split foot take offs. we need more motivated, dedicated practitioners.

i learned a lot about parkour when i first started from watching the same french videos HUNDREDS of times and rewinding and going frame by frame. it would be very nice to see people do this with people like phil doyle, danny ilabaca and parkour generations videos. watch high level traceurs move, go out and train and be conscious of how your body is moving. that will teach you more than a few tips here and there from an internet forum full of people of all skill levels.

either way, constructive criticism can be helpful if its actually put into play and not just thought about for a minute.

[Stevie Leifheit]

How else might we accomplish this?

Maybe a sticky giving some guidelines in the pics and vids section? I know we already have a lot of stickies, but I think a few of them could go...


Just an idea.

[TR]

...There's no need to 'judge' peoples movement. Sure, if they could use improvement, then throw out a suggestion to help them do so... but essentially it seems as if by judging them... you are merely comparing them to whatever the best of that 'category' would be? Since when was Parkour about comparing peoples ability to move with others? Since when was it about telling people how good or bad they are in-comparison to others?

Instead of making an effort to make people Judge others... why not just encourage them to leave a helpful comment/suggestion if needed...

[Alec Furtado]

...There's no need to 'judge' peoples movement. Sure, if they could use improvement, then throw out a suggestion to help them do so... but essentially it seems as if by judging them... you are merely comparing them to whatever the best of that 'category' would be? Since when was Parkour about comparing peoples ability to move with others? Since when was it about telling people how good or bad they are in-comparison to others?

Instead of making an effort to make people Judge others... why not just encourage them to leave a helpful comment/suggestion if needed...

Yeaaauuhhhh..... nooooooo. 1) Re-read through all of the comments here. 2) Watch the recent Renezvous Q&A.

You gotta keep in mind too that people's movement is not the only thing that the suggestions will be meant to look at. People spend hours and hours of editing these videos, and often enough are always looking for criticism and suggestions in regards to that. The video is made for other people, and if it didn't hit it's mark, we can do what we can to help the person refine their skills.

More stuff on the necessities of "judging" others' movement... thinking back, I can say that I've learned the most when training with other people. You are able to see what other people do with exactly the same obstacle which greatly expands your personal ability. Online, we don't have that, but the video section is probably the closest thing to that. We are able to their their movement and say, "Hey, have you tried this, have you tried that." None of it is ever to bring a person down; it is to help them. I have no doubt that even if someone did maliciously (with intent to hurt/offend) attack another person on their video, the rest of the forum community here would swoop in to fix that: berate the attacker and offer good criticism to the poster. We are just awesome that way. Basically, parkour obviously isn't about comparing people's ability to move with others. It's a personal journey entirely. As with anything in life however, others' can be our greatest benchmark and motivator. Others can teach us just from us observing, and we can offer the same back from observing others.

If somebody doesn't want to have their video analyzed, they can probably just say so and people wouldn't. Keep in mind that online, here, we do a great job of teaching each other how to be open thinkers and kind... I have no doubt some would be criticizing others' criticisms.

I see and understand where you're coming from, but I think it's on an outdated set of predictions. Most of us are really nice and helpful people and I don't really see what you're saying as being a big deal. I wouldn't trust Youtube comments even 1% as much as I trust the comments on here.

[Adam McC]

My first thought is this.

I'm not quite sure that when people are posting videos on our site, it's for constructive criticism. Often it is, yes, but often I think people are just joyfully trying to share what they did with others. Nothing more. The scenario I fear is someone just posting a video, someone replying with a list of criteria and a judging sheet, and the OP getting defensive and it turning into more heat than required. This would happen because of two different paradigms, or perspectives. We'd have the OP, who's just sharing their video and not looking to have their video picked apart and analyzed (probably half the time by people less knowledgeable than them), then we have the forum people, who look at each video as an opportunity to apply the criteria and respond with constructive criticism. That'd create conflict.

I think we should have it where if people ask for constructive criticism in their video, then we have a very large area of criteria (much bigger than the Jump City judging system, thanks) that we can apply. How good the filming is, how good the editing is, the selection of the music, the control of the movement, the power of the movement, the difficulty (if that applies), the creativity, the use of the environment, and so on and so on. If we really want to regulate and standardize, then we should create some kind of template to fill out for each of those aspects, which there should be dozens of. Then people can say "well, what area of constructive criticism would you like", then the OP says "how good do you think my technique is?" Then we whip out the old technique template and give some useable advice. But the key here is, ONLY IF THE 'OP' ASKS FOR IT.

The last thing I wanna see is people just sharing their videos with the community for the sake of fun and community love, and a whole bunch of people jumping to judge it.

My two cents on the idea.

[TR]

Yeaaauuhhhh..... nooooooo.

No? lol. No to not judging/rating others peoples movement as if it's some competition on G4? No to throwing out suggestions if needed/necessary/asked? Ok. I'm out.