Author Topic: Quitting Creatine...Myth?  (Read 1256 times)

Offline Jordan Davis

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Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« on: February 20, 2011, 12:23:29 AM »
I've heard that when ur on creatine supplements during high intensity workouts, it is very beneficial. But when you stop it.. your muscles degrade, and you lose strength.

I did some research on creatine and from what i found, i don't see how, biologically, this effect could happen.

Are there any side effects or negative impacts on muscle mass gain/loss or training when you begin or end a creatine supplement?
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 12:50:13 AM »
Its a myth, creatine works by allowing you to train harder, the gains from training will not go away unless your body has a reason to get rid of them, IE excessive muscle wasting chronic cardio, or poor diet/insufficient calories.
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 08:37:57 AM »
Myth. What was said above works
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 10:08:02 AM »
Once you stop creatine you WILL experience a lot of weight loss in a short period of time - and your muscles will not be as huge.  This is because creatine throws off the osmotic gradient in your muscles.  In other words, the muscles get filled with more creatine, which increases performance, but more creatine in the muscles pulls more water into the muscles as well.

As you get off creatine and your muscles go back to their normal equilibrium, the excess creatine is flushed away, and the water that was filling the muscles goes with it.

This is purely cosmetic, though.
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Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »
Not to drag this off topic but:

Does the same effect occur when wiping the liver/muscles of their entire glycogen stores?
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 10:47:29 AM »
Not to drag this off topic but:

Does the same effect occur when wiping the liver/muscles of their entire glycogen stores?

Yes.

It's also responsible for the rapid weight loss experienced on low/no carb diets when people try them for the first time such as atkins.

Loss of 8-10 lbs within the first week
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Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 11:36:47 AM »
So when running on low carb, does that mean I need to drink more water to stay hydrated(due to not holding as much in my muscles)?

I was on Keto for about 3 weeks before, I felt 'deflated' through the process.

Thanks for your info as always Steven.
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 12:50:08 PM »
So when running on low carb, does that mean I need to drink more water to stay hydrated(due to not holding as much in my muscles)?

I was on Keto for about 3 weeks before, I felt 'deflated' through the process.

Thanks for your info as always Steven.

No.

You get thirsty because your body is liberating glycogen for energy. It's the same as if you were on higher carb.... you'd still get thirsty because of the same process.

You just drink as much as you usually do either way.

If you feel thirsty you should just drink more anyway.

Deflated from keto is probably your body undergoing the fat adaptation process, and you're more lethargic because it's trying to adapt without the energy stores. Once you hit the 3-4 weeks you generally start getting the energy back
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Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 02:13:03 PM »
According to a certain graph I found(can't remember where right now) I read that fast twitch fibers require carbohydrates to function.  This would imply that on a Ketogenic diet, it is impossible to utilize these fibers?

Also, I have read that without carbohydrates(and thusly insulin spikes) bulking is nigh impossible on a ketogenic diet.

I felt significantly weaker on the rings initially, but started to regain some strength.  I'm guessing 3 weeks wasn't enough time for my body to fully adapt? 

I apologize for completely derailing this thread, and thanks yet again Steven for the info.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 02:33:49 PM »
According to a certain graph I found(can't remember where right now) I read that fast twitch fibers require carbohydrates to function.  This would imply that on a Ketogenic diet, it is impossible to utilize these fibers?

Yes, they require glucose to function.  Your body can break down fat and turn it into glucose and use that as energy.  So no, that's not true =P.

Quote
Also, I have read that without carbohydrates(and thusly insulin spikes) bulking is nigh impossible on a ketogenic diet.

Body works by a negative feedback loop, any dips in blood sugar would be compensated by fat catabolism into glucose to bring it up to normal levels.  The plus side is that you don't have to worry so much about insulin spikes.
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Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 02:36:21 PM »
Thank you Dan!

I think I will be resuming Keto with this newfound knowledge.

I never felt so good/clear skin than when I eating that way.
*Yawns*

Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 02:40:38 PM »
Thank you Dan!

I think I will be resuming Keto with this newfound knowledge.

I never felt so good/clear skin than when I eating that way.

You too huh?

I have the same issue where if I consume a large amount of carbs I'll get acne + crashes throughout the day.  Not surprising, carbohydrates are inflammatory.  Normally I would live off of milk, but my allergies prevent me from that >_>.  I wonder if I should start keto and see how that goes.  Definitely worth looking into.
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Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 03:14:48 PM »
I stopped due to the 'deflated' feeling I was experiencing in my muscles, and loss of strength in rings(perhaps it was nocebo from my idea that no carb=weakness)

I will resume with newfound confidence in this newfound knowledge.

But yeah, zero breakouts with 10g or less carbs a day.  Felt amazing(none of the brain-fog I hear about from some people)

In the end, I suppose what works best for some is genetic.

If you're interested, the following foods will be staples:
Broccoli and Spinach(broccoli is amazing)
Almonds
Bacon
Bacon
Bacon

Did I mention bacon?
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 08:26:38 PM »
Carbohydrates end up being conditionally essential for someone who's doing high intensity activity on a regular basis. I dunno your routine but I'm assuming it has parkour work (lots of power/plyo work) and apparently rings work (typically not done in the endurance range but in the higher intensity lower rep strength range).

My guess is you're seeing a weakness/loss in perofrmance from ketosis on a high intensity training regime.

It doesn't take anything massive to replenish what you might lose, but 10g a day won't cut it (though it might be worth sacrificing for pristine skin. as a fellow sufferer, I wouldn't blame you there)

This really sums it up and explains it well, read it nice and close
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html
(also note it's written by the man who probably knows everything you'd ever want or need to know about ketosis so it's the best source to hear it from)

Offline Steven Low

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 08:33:01 PM »
If you're going lower carb try to put all your carbs around workout time... either pre or post. It will help your performance
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Offline Ryan Nicolai

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2011, 11:08:42 PM »
So... I can still get the effects of Ketosis, as long as I use up my glycogen stores from carbs each day and don't go overboard on refueling?

But what is "overboard" will vary drastically for every person and their goals...

That's what I took away from the article.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:10:27 PM by Ryan Nicolai »


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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 04:30:43 AM »
So... I can still get the effects of Ketosis, as long as I use up my glycogen stores from carbs each day and don't go overboard on refueling?

But what is "overboard" will vary drastically for every person and their goals...

That's what I took away from the article.

Well to maintain ketosis you'll have to stay under 100g a day of carb, setting a practical bare minimum at 15g. Then, for every 2 work sets you'd do (assuming wach set will last 30-45seconds), you'll need 5g of carb for that day to compensate. Typically you'd want a little more for better performance and the anabolic effects. As long as you're staying under 100g you'll maintain a ketotic state.

Like Steve said, keeping carb intake dense to around the time of the workout both before abd after, can be really helpful.

Offline Nathaniel Kauffman

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2011, 06:55:23 AM »
I understand that some organelles of the body are able to adapt and produce at a higher threshold(for instance, mitochondria)

I do not know what is exactly at work here, but by completely abstaining from carbs would my body adapt and become more efficient at breaking down glycerol for intensity work?
*Yawns*

Offline Steven Low

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2011, 07:19:51 AM »
I understand that some organelles of the body are able to adapt and produce at a higher threshold(for instance, mitochondria)

I do not know what is exactly at work here, but by completely abstaining from carbs would my body adapt and become more efficient at breaking down glycerol for intensity work?

Yes
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Quitting Creatine...Myth?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2011, 07:24:48 AM »
I understand that some organelles of the body are able to adapt and produce at a higher threshold(for instance, mitochondria)

I do not know what is exactly at work here, but by completely abstaining from carbs would my body adapt and become more efficient at breaking down glycerol for intensity work?

Well, yeah. To an extent. Even with adaptation, though, it'd simply be too slow of an energy source for activity that needs energy fast (high intensity stuff).

You'd probably feel drained easily when doing those activities and even in general afterward. Very low carb diets for sedentary people that already have a lot of metabolic disorder can work really well, but for young athletes not so much. Especially power/strength based athletes.

It can come down to a practical thing, too. If you're a smaller guy and want to make strength improvements and weight gain, without significant carbs it'll take a huge caloric surplus from protein and fat alone, the energy portion being mainly from fat. To eat enough food to get there might be a little hard, since that limits a lot of available foods you might have. You could possibly have to abstain from too many foods that would have otherwise been a good call for weight gain. Carbs tend to help with overeating, which is why avoiding a lot of them for people dieting can be good, but for weight gain on a skinny guy they can work wonders.

In fact, without overdoing it crazily, a small caloric surplus in general tends to do wonders for smaller guys doing lots of activity just in the sense of how they feel / fighting overreaching (though this would include more catbs, typically staying out of ketosis).

Anywho, while yes your glycogen independent systems can adapt to a degree, it doesn't mean you'd be able to perform nearly as well as with more dietary carb.