Topic: 5/3/1 for Parkour - Blane's Article

[Tom Coppola]

Its been over three years since the infamously misinformed "When Worlds Collide" article which argued that parkour specific training was the best way to physically prepare oneself for parkour (ie 100 precisions to develop leg strength).  It seems that he has finally done some research and cleared up his own misconceptions about weightlifting and strength training in general.  Unfortunately, I doubt there are as many people who currently read his blog as there were 3 years ago.

5/3/1 for Parkour

[Andy Animus Tran]

It's nice to see that Blane's turned around (although, I was around when he started SS) and the 5/3/1 article idea is something I've thrown around in my head, too.  I dislike how Blane outlined the entirety of the program (this is, after all, a program that is for sale, and Wendler's the shit, so I don't see why you wouldn't support him).  also.. clean and presses and snatches for overhead pressing assistance work?  Doesn't make sense to me.  On that note, a 5/3/1 work-out should take a hell of a lot longer than 20 minutes if you warm-up properly and take the appropriate rest periods between sets.

I feel the aim of an article such as this should be concerned about how to fit in the program with training and how to most appropriately pick accessory exercises.  5/3/1 is insanely high volume.  Last sets on the "5" weeks can be upwards of 25 reps at ridiculously high weights...  For me, a deadlift day on the 5s week would have me pulling 355lbs for as many reps as possible, and getting between 18-25 wouldn't be farfetched.  If Blane expects to handle that type of intensity and volume three times a week and do Parkour training as regularly as he is, I might be a little worried.  Now, Blane's spent years conditioning himself to hell and back, so his body can actually handle it, more than likely.  For most others, I don't know if that's the case.

I only say all this because I was foolish enough to try to handle 5/3/1 and Parkour at both high volumes at the same time.  This led to an MCL tear.  Whether Blane likes it or not, Parkour should be treated with "on" and "off" seasons.  Not 100%, mind you...  But a phase spent with 90% of your focus on getting strong.. and a phase spent with 90% of your focus on getting technically better.. is simply going to be safer in the long run.  Novices and beginners will have a bit of an easier time handling volume, since they're moving lighter weights, but when we're talking hundreds of pounds...

Blane's example uses a training max of 96kg, which is only 211lbs.  It's obvious none of us here are elite powerlifters who're squatting 500+lbs regularly, but I think it should be mentioned that once the weights start to get really high... something like this becomes extremely risky.  I do hope Blane sees some good results, though.  I know that the stronger I got, the more powerful I got in my Parkour stuff, too.  But I did need to start restructuring everything to handle the volume and intensity of the weight I was putting on my back/holding onto all the time.

[Chris Salvato]

Blane lost all credibility with me after his article that was total crap on how to train for Parkour.  That's probably why no one reads his blog anymore - because that was his claim to fame and it sent parkour conditioning on a downward spiral for 4 f#cking years.

To be honest, I didn't read - I skimmed.  From what I skimmed, it just looks like more of an inexperienced and unlearned person talking about what he doesn't understand.  Training with weights "weekly" for 8 months doesn't make you an authority that has any right making up programs that are adaptations of 5/3/1 - something made up by someone with 30 years experience in the field.

I am starting to consider Blane's writing dangerous in that he is attempting to appeal to the masses of parkour with so little experience on what he is actually talking about. 

Stick to talking about what you know, Blane...PARKOUR...not weight training.

[Chris Salvato]

BTW i tried to submit a comment on his blog but was told it needed to be approved by the moderator.  My post there was just about the same as my post here, so I don't think it will see the light of day.

[Steven Low]

5/3/1 is a program for people with high intermediate or advanced strength....... most people doing parkour have none of the above... therefore 5/3/1 won't work effectively as something more for a beginner or intermediate.

Which is why we typically just recommend SS or bodyweight strength work

[Andy Animus Tran]

Yeah, I tried to submit a comment, myself.

I'm trying to imagine a novice doing 5/3/1.  Max squat.. 155.  Training max..  140.  First week's last work set.. 120lbs to failure.  @_@

[Chris Salvato]

The more I think about it, the more this article annoys the shit out of me.

[Tom Coppola]

Yea, when I noticed he wrote an article on 5/3/1 I was excited because it seemed like he was trying to undo the damage he contributed to years ago.  Then after reading it, I felt as if he shouldn't have tried to outline the program the way he did.  People are undoubtedly going to take his advice and start this program, likely without having much if any prior experience lifting, simply because hes considered an authority on parkour.

I would rather have seen an article about his OWN experience with lifting, where he has seen improvements in relation to parkour, and include a link to the SS wiki or somewhere people can get useful information for novices.

[Chris Salvato]

My comment still isnt approved.  Don't think it ever will be.

[Blane_UK]

Hi guys,

Nice to see some constructive opinions being passed around regarding the article that I wrote but there are a few things I disagree with in your posts and I thought I'd clear some things up.

First of all, I don't spend a great deal of time online so please forgive me if it takes more than 48 hours for your comments to 'see the light of day' and be added to the blog. I approve everything except spam so you don't have to worry about me censoring any comments because they disagree with what I'm writing. Everything on the blog is based on my opinions and experiences and since they are just that, they are subject to change as time goes on and my opinions change.

I now disagree with a lot of what I said in 'When Worlds Collide' in terms of what I believe is an effective way to progress in Parkour using strength and conditioning exercises. Conditioning through movement and repetition of technical drills is still great, but only as part of a well structured and safe program that implements strength training at its core.

Also, as for being considered an 'authority on Parkour', that is something that I've never said, believed or supported in any way, and I don't preach to people that they should follow the way I train. Once again, everything on my blog is my own and simply outlines things that I'm thinking about at the time, trying, testing or experimenting with.

As for the other comments, I'll try to keep some kind of order to this...

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Its been over three years since the infamously misinformed "When Worlds Collide" article which argued that parkour specific training was the best way to physically prepare oneself for parkour (ie 100 precisions to develop leg strength).  It seems that he has finally done some research and cleared up his own misconceptions about weightlifting and strength training in general.  Unfortunately, I doubt there are as many people who currently read his blog as there were 3 years ago.

Tom, I've had a read through the article again and can't see it, can you show me where it says people should do '100 precisions to develop leg strength'? Thanks, and sorry if I missed it. If I did happen to say that in the article then it was a misinformed and incorrect statement to make.

And yes, you're right, I wanted to clear up my own misconceptions and show my support for the benefits of strength training using weights.

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It's nice to see that Blane's turned around (although, I was around when he started SS) and the 5/3/1 article idea is something I've thrown around in my head, too.  I dislike how Blane outlined the entirety of the program (this is, after all, a program that is for sale, and Wendler's the shit, so I don't see why you wouldn't support him).  also.. clean and presses and snatches for overhead pressing assistance work?  Doesn't make sense to me.  On that note, a 5/3/1 work-out should take a hell of a lot longer than 20 minutes if you warm-up properly and take the appropriate rest periods between sets.

I feel the aim of an article such as this should be concerned about how to fit in the program with training and how to most appropriately pick accessory exercises.  5/3/1 is insanely high volume.  Last sets on the "5" weeks can be upwards of 25 reps at ridiculously high weights...  For me, a deadlift day on the 5s week would have me pulling 355lbs for as many reps as possible, and getting between 18-25 wouldn't be farfetched.  If Blane expects to handle that type of intensity and volume three times a week and do Parkour training as regularly as he is, I might be a little worried.  Now, Blane's spent years conditioning himself to hell and back, so his body can actually handle it, more than likely.  For most others, I don't know if that's the case.

I only say all this because I was foolish enough to try to handle 5/3/1 and Parkour at both high volumes at the same time.  This led to an MCL tear.  Whether Blane likes it or not, Parkour should be treated with "on" and "off" seasons.  Not 100%, mind you...  But a phase spent with 90% of your focus on getting strong.. and a phase spent with 90% of your focus on getting technically better.. is simply going to be safer in the long run.  Novices and beginners will have a bit of an easier time handling volume, since they're moving lighter weights, but when we're talking hundreds of pounds...

Andy, I had a think about whether reproducing so much of the program would be disrespectful or detrimental to the sales of Jim's book, but then I found that all of the information I included is already available online for free at T-Nation, here - http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

Also, I've spoken to three people who have bought the book to find out more since reading the article so I don't think it's a problem.

When I say the workout takes 20 minutes, that doesn't include the time it takes to warm up and it doesn't include any assistance work. Since my rest periods are around three minutes and the actual effort takes around 10 seconds per set, maybe up to a minute if I'm on the last set going to failure, then 20 minutes is in no way an exaggeration of how long it would take to complete the main lift after the warm up was finished.

Clean and press with a kettlebell is an exercise I often do after overhead pressing since it incorporates a one-handed overhead press, which works the same muscle groups, in the same range of motion as the main lift and unless you can suggest a way to safely rack the kettlebell before I press it then I'm going to continue cleaning it in to position. Can you explain why you think it's inappropriate as an assistance exercise?

Maybe 5/3/1 is a high volume program for some people but I've spoken to a few people who are far more experienced than I am in the field, including a well respected UK strength and conditioning coach, who said they didn't really enjoy it because it didn't have enough volume for them. Personally, lifting three times per week even on the occasions where I lifted 15-20 reps of a high percentage of my starting 1RM in the lift hasn't been a problem for me yet and I'll be sure to include some comments about this when I review the program after a few months. If anything, compared to how much I was training before, this is quite comfortable and I feel fresh for my other training.

Lastly, I think we'll have to agree to disagree that Parkour should have an 'on and an off season', because I haven't changed my mind. This simply comes down to a personal opinion and an individual's training philosophy in general, since I believe that I can't afford to have a prolonged period where I neglect technical training 90% of the time in favour of strength training.
Yes, my strength gains will be slower this way but Parkour doesn't have a season where you need to be in peak condition... you need to be in the best condition you can be, all of the time, which means more integration of methodologies, and less periodisation.

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Blane lost all credibility with me after his article that was total crap on how to train for Parkour.  That's probably why no one reads his blog anymore - because that was his claim to fame and it sent parkour conditioning on a downward spiral for 4 f#cking years.

To be honest, I didn't read - I skimmed.  From what I skimmed, it just looks like more of an inexperienced and unlearned person talking about what he doesn't understand.  Training with weights "weekly" for 8 months doesn't make you an authority that has any right making up programs that are adaptations of 5/3/1 - something made up by someone with 30 years experience in the field.

I am starting to consider Blane's writing dangerous in that he is attempting to appeal to the masses of parkour with so little experience on what he is actually talking about. 

Stick to talking about what you know, Blane...PARKOUR...not weight training.

Chris, perhaps if you're going to spend so much time criticising something then it might be worth reading it in its entirety, rather than skimming it.

If indeed people stopped reading my blog then I suspect it might have had something to do with me not posting any new content on there, rather than a response to a post that was in fact generally well received, don't you think? If the post had received terrible feedback and then people stopped reading the blog then I might agree with you... but it didn't, and so I don't.

If you had read the post then you may have noticed the part where I said,

"I've been weight training on a weekly basis for around seven or eight months now and although I'm still very much a beginner in the field, I'm noticing progress in both technique and strength and feel like I'm definitely moving forward and making worthwhile gains that carry across to my technical training."

...so not only did I say that I am not an experienced lifter, I don't consider myself an authority in any way.

To say that the post was my 'claim to fame and sent Parkour conditioning on a downward spiral for four years' is childish, but not without some humour!
If in your opinion the general state of people's level of strength and conditioning in Parkour over the past four years has decreased then I would suspect that you haven't visited the UK recently. If you can provide just one clear example of someone, anyone, who has regressed in terms of strength or fitness levels by following what I said in that post then I will begin to take your opinion seriously, until then, I'm going to treat your comment as wild speculation and bitterness.

Moving on, can you explain how I changed the core of the 5/3/1 program, besides adjusting the assistance exercises to suit my needs?

Finally, you say that I'm attempting to appeal to the masses, so can you justify that please? It's quite a strong accusation and one I disagree with entirely.

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5/3/1 is a program for people with high intermediate or advanced strength....... most people doing parkour have none of the above... therefore 5/3/1 won't work effectively as something more for a beginner or intermediate.

Which is why we typically just recommend SS or bodyweight strength work

Hi Steven, I'm going to quote from the book itself now to justify why I disagree with you...

"Question: Is this program for advanced or beginner lifters?

Answer: I’ve used this program with both beginning and advanced lifters. Steady, slow progression will never go out of fashion, and neither will the big exercises. The trick is to teach beginners correct form at the start. For advanced lifters, the most important thing is to remember long term goals, and not basing unrealistic maxes on what you did four years ago."

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The more I think about it, the more this article annoys the shit out of me

Sorry to hear that Chris, perhaps you should stop thinking about it, go outside and train, or maybe even write your own articles to help undo some of the damage done to stop the downward spiral of strength and conditioning for Parkour.

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Yea, when I noticed he wrote an article on 5/3/1 I was excited because it seemed like he was trying to undo the damage he contributed to years ago.  Then after reading it, I felt as if he shouldn't have tried to outline the program the way he did.  People are undoubtedly going to take his advice and start this program, likely without having much if any prior experience lifting, simply because hes considered an authority on parkour.

I would rather have seen an article about his OWN experience with lifting, where he has seen improvements in relation to parkour, and include a link to the SS wiki or somewhere people can get useful information for novices.

Tom, I will be adding some updates in the near future with my own experience using the program but I want to complete at least three or four cycles first. A person would be silly to start any program, posted in any book, on any website, of any kind, without first learning how to safely complete the exercises found within. Everyone I've spoken to in person about the article who wanted to give it a try has first started by looking in to the exercises more and one even went to a personal trainer to receive professional coaching in the techniques required.

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I'll try and come back and respond to any replies to my post soon but I'm really busy at the moment so it might take a while.

All the best,

Blane

[Rafe]

Tom, Chris, Andy I think your falling into a little us and them group think here.  Allot of us here have been strong advocates for progressive strength like seen in elite sports in parkour for allong time, and we have been working against a huge amount of misunderstanding.

Blane you published an essay promoting using parkour as your primary conditioning(which I actually agree with when as long as you understand strength training and conditioning are different things) which crystallized what in many ways is the mainstream of training practice among traceurs. You also work with PKgen who have a reputation for dismissing the importance of progressive strength training especially with weights and doing excessive conditioning.

So there is natural tendency to hypercritical of what blane is putting out. I think its unwarranted though. Whatever the problem with the worlds collide article clearly blanes has changed his view and is not presenting himself as an expert in outlining his program. If some unknown traceur was publishing this program as to how he intended to train we would all be pleased that he had the right idea. I also think it is silly to think that article is major reason why weight training has not spread better in the parkour community, blane may have articulated the argument against weight training more effectively then most but the reality is that he was articulating the common feeling in the parkour towards weight training, the majority of traceurs in my experience still do not weight train and have almost no understanding of the actuall effects or benefits.

Personally I did 5/3/1 and did not find it worked well with my parkour training, Res from BC had similar experience from my talks with him. My experience would indicate that your considering to much assistance work Blane but I believe have more developed work capacity then I do so you might pull it off if your article was proscriptive I would have problem with advocating that much assistance work but since it personal all I can say is good luck. I am interested to see how it works for you.

I don't like the idea of an off season with Parkour either, their are reasons that is neccesarry in elite sport community the don't necessarily apply to parkour. Power lifters and olympic lifter are the best source of knowledege about how to effectively program weight training but you have to weight that information with understanding their methods are optimized for their sport.

[Tom Coppola]

First of all, I appreciate that you came here to discuss (and defend) your views.  I posted this here to see what the more knowledgeable guys had to say about your breakdown of 5/3/1 and I think I was swayed into a bit of group think as Rafe said.   However, I still think the article came off as a bit too prescriptive.

Also, as for being considered an 'authority on Parkour', that is something that I've never said, believed or supported in any way, and I don't preach to people that they should follow the way I train. Once again, everything on my blog is my own and simply outlines things that I'm thinking about at the time, trying, testing or experimenting with.

Although you may have never claimed to be an authority, you certainly have become one.  A lot of people sought advice from you in the past and followed your blog quite closely for years (myself included).  Additionally, your affiliation as a coach with PKGEN places you in an authority position whether you believe it or not.

Tom, I've had a read through the article again and can't see it, can you show me where it says people should do '100 precisions to develop leg strength'? Thanks, and sorry if I missed it. If I did happen to say that in the article then it was a misinformed and incorrect statement to make.

"Repetition of technical movements, done in a controlled and focused manner is the best way to get better at those technical movements, but at the same time, this repetition of technique is the best way to build the muscles needed to do the technique better."

You never directly say that 100 precisions will develop strength, but later in the article you go on to say:

"...I decided not to do any pistols, calf raises or any other singular motion. I would simply repeat jumps."

Implying that you're replacing strength exercises with repeating precisions.

Sorry to hear that Chris, perhaps you should stop thinking about it, go outside and train, or maybe even write your own articles to help undo some of the damage done to stop the downward spiral of strength and conditioning for Parkour.

www.eatmoveimprove.com

A person would be silly to start any program, posted in any book, on any website, of any kind, without first learning how to safely complete the exercises found within. Everyone I've spoken to in person about the article who wanted to give it a try has first started by looking in to the exercises more and one even went to a personal trainer to receive professional coaching in the techniques required.

Isn't that what we all did when we first started parkour?  None of us knew how to safely practice.  We just went outside and started jumping and newcomers are still doing it everyday.  There are plenty of athletes that I see in the gym with awful form.  I don't think parkour practitioners new to weight training would be any different.

I'm glad you've started lifting and have come to realize the benefits.  Its also nice to see that you're encouraging others to strength train.  I've personally experienced quite a bit of improvement in my capabilities and I owe a lot of it to the Gen. Fitness boards with people like Chris and Steve desperately trying to correct misinformation.  Good luck with the program.

[Chris Salvato]

Hello Blane (and all others who are undoubtedly reading this),

Maybe you think I was harsh - maybe even unnecessarily.  I know you don't know me, but because of "When Worlds Collide" you have made an unthinkable amount of work for traceurs like myself, Steve, Andry and Rafe that had to undo the damage that was done by your article.  Whether you like it or not, your article gets posted and reposted here at least once every few months.  For a time, anytime anyone said ANYTHING about parkour conditioning, that was the article we were linked to to which we had to go through a point-by-point breakdown of how it was incorrect on a scientifically qualitative and quantitative level.  I know you meant well, but it is only recently (last year or 2) that we were able to break free of the arguing your previous famous article's mentality here at APK.  The 3Run community, of course, is a lost cause where I think they may worship it during twilight hours and pray to it 5 times a day.

That said, I know you are also part of PKGen - another group whose training methodologies I disagree with on many levels.  Whenever PK Gen comes here for classes/training seminars they bring a ton of good information, which covers up the gross amount of bad information that they bring over here as well....like doing tons of dive bomber pushups is somehow beneficial or hopping on 1 leg and then the other for 45 minutes is somehow going to help your parkour.  Really, taht stuff just makes you look silly in the park.

With those 2 prejudices going against you, it is no surprise that I had some ill-will about your latest article, where the introduction states your lack of experience on something, then you go into a long article about the thing with which you have little experience.  Sadly, people ignore this sort of clause and I am fearful that this is considered the advice of an expert -- after all you teach PKGen classes in London and have written a wildly famous article on conditioning, so whether you like it or not, you are an authority on conditioning for parkour.

With that said, don't misunderstand me.  I think that you are on the right track - I like the direction your training is heading and I like the direction your experience and research is going.  I love the videos you put out.  I think you are an incredibly talented traceur, much more talented in that realm than myself.  My problem is the same I have with other people who post on this forum and on other forums about parkour - there is more talk than experience; more instruction than knowhow.  Do you have any idea how many times someone posts in here that, to be better at pullups, you need to train to get 100 pushups?!  How inefficient.  

That said, I have read your article through and thought, albeit speedy since my time is always scarce nowadays, that is is a major improvement from When Worlds Collide.  That aside, I see some glaring problems that are a result of your inexperience.  Inexperience + Authority is a bad thing.

For the sake of being constructive, here is the biggest problem I find with your article (since most of it is just a regurgitation of the 5/3/1 book).:

Below is a general overview of how a typical week might be scheduled for me.

Monday - Power training for legs, technical training and mobility exercises.
Tuesday - Overhead Press 5/3/1 and assistance exercises.
Wednesday - Technical training and/or climbing.
Thursday - Deadlift 5/3/1 and assistance exercises.
Friday - Light technical training and mobility exercises.
Saturday - Squat 5/3/1 and assistance exercises
Sunday - Active Recovery.

If you posted that schedule on here everyone of our "Authorities" would have yold you that you had too much on your plate.  It looks good on paper - training 6 days a week with one "Active recovery" day.  You and I both know that people like us don't have "active recovery" days.  We just have days where we do less shit than other days - which is still a lot of f#cking training.  There are two ways that you will find out that this volume is way too high:
1) You will be exhausted, all the time, and unable to perform all together - or be so overtrained that you will feel the need to train compulsively without making any progress.
2) You get an injury.

From my experience, I have gone down both routes.  From the experiences I have seen with others, the 2nd one is more likely than the first, because you won't even know what hit you when you are that overtrained. The way it is placed and worded in your article - it is easily copiable and sounds almost prescriptive.  I am sure at least 5 traceurs will take this exact program and use it.  I would put a year's pay on that.  5 traceurs is a very modest estimate.

What are my other qualms?  Little things, really, but they create myths and misconceptions.  For example:

• Isometric Holds will not help you with your squatting all that much, unless your form is really really shitty.  Even then, we are talking about holding the very bottom of the squat, not chair positions - which i am inferring to mean "wall sits" in american lingo.
• Calf Raises don't help your squat unless you have a big problem with your calves or are soooo advanced that your calves are your weakest link
• Rows don't help much for OH Press, neither do pushups or QM or benching or cleans or snatches or muscle ups.  All of these are way out of the OH Press ROM and would be an inefficient way to improve the OH press, even if there is some translation (that I am admitting exists).
• Hack squats suck and they are dangerous if done with a smith machine.  They are hardly an assistance to the DL
• GHR are just as much for Squat as DL, if not moreso.

Also, maybe i am not recalling correctly, but on the 5/3/1 all the assistance exercises are supposed to be weighted and progressive, just like the core lifts (not on a 5/31 scheme themselves, though).  I may be mixing things up in my head though, so I won't nitpick.

That said, I want you to know that I do respect your opinion and I do respect you as a person and a traceur.  I just had a kneejerk reaction based on the above outlined prejudices.

Now....to address some of your comments directed towards me....

To say that the post was my 'claim to fame and sent Parkour conditioning on a downward spiral for four years' is childish, but not without some humour!

On this, I disagree.  I still think "When Worlds Collide" set back parkour conditioning many years.  We are still cleaning up the mess it made.  I wish we saw eye to eye on this.

If in your opinion the general state of people's level of strength and conditioning in Parkour over the past four years has decreased then I would suspect that you haven't visited the UK recently. If you can provide just one clear example of someone, anyone, who has regressed in terms of strength or fitness levels by following what I said in that post then I will begin to take your opinion seriously, until then, I'm going to treat your comment as wild speculation and bitterness.

Treat it however you want.  The methods outlined in When Worlds Collide are not safe or adequate.  People in the parkour community, whether you like it or not, are mostly at the intermediate level of strength - just getting past the point where they are untrained.  Most people in the community are very capable of tasks that involve a lot of motor learning.  The problem is, there is no basis of comparison.  Everyone is comparing themselves to each other, or Livewire or Danny or whoever.  Lets start comparing ourselves to real elite athletes.  The olympic gymnasts and sprinters.  Compared to the average joe, or even weekend warrior or regular trainee at the gym, YES traceurs are strong.  Compared to olympians?  Elite runners?  We are bullshit.  I am sorry if you do not share this opinion.  I know that people in the UK are amazingly talented, but think of how much better they would be with real conditioning.

Sorry to hear that Chris, perhaps you should stop thinking about it, go outside and train, or maybe even write your own articles to help undo some of the damage done to stop the downward spiral of strength and conditioning for Parkour.

I do train - and I do write articles to help under some of the damage.  Steve and I started www.eatmoveimprove.com to propagate good information.  You should check out our article on bodyweight training and skill standards for parkour...we also have articles on balance training, plyometrics, beginner programs, etc.  You might find some of it worthwhile to recommend to others, even.

http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2010/03/the-fundamentals-of-bodyweight-strength-training/
http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2009/12/skill-guidelines-for-building-strong-useful-adaptable-athletes/


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With all of that said, it is important to note that you and I are really on the same side of the same coin.  We are both trying to accomplish the same things and push Parkour into a positive direction.  I am hopeful that we can have a positive influence on each other, despite the fact that I may have been overly harsh in my first few posts.  I know what it is like to invest time into an article/writing and then have it shat on by others.

[Mr.WWII]

Wow, I was always wondering why the parkour world seemed to be obsessed with the parkour-movement kind of conditioning for so long, that information was tossed around so much, especially from the UK, from what I saw at least. Anyone see the "nature of challenge" documentary? It's crazy that one idea was able to spread like wildfire throughout the parkour community.

and to Chris about comparing ourselves to elite athletes: I would LOVE to see some NFL players and olympic lifters get into parkour. I can't even imagine the power some NFL players could get out of their strides and jumps

[Brett Robert]

Blane:

Thanks for stopping by here and commenting.  I'm not as knowledgeable as Rafe, Chris, Steven, or Andy, so I'll leave the technical corrections to them.  I know they've given me lots of feedback and correction over the years.  I can understand why you felt people were being harsh.  Honestly, we may be a bit too blunt here in General Fitness sometimes; I think it scares some people away and robs us of the opportunity to help them.

Personally, as an advocate of weight training for parkour, I just want to thank you for this latest article (even though I tend to agree that the program isn't 100% perfect, but it's still good).  I know at least one person who decided to start training with weights because of this article.  He's a respected community leader in the Bay Area, a smart guy with years of experience in parkour, and no amount of input from myself or anyone else could ever convince him that weights were good for parkour, but as soon as I quoted you and linked to your blog on SFPK, his mind changed. 

Over the years I've heard many people refer to you as either an inspiration, an authority, or as a model traceur.  You do have a lot of influence in the parkour community.  More over long-time friends of mine that I've trained with for years than even I myself do.  I was extremely impressed with the recent article, because I know from personal experience how hard it can be to admit when I'm wrong or when I've changed my mind.  Thanks man, keep up the good work.

Also, though people here were a bit harsh, I promise that they're extremely dedicated and nice people.  Like Chris said, we're definitely all on the same side.  I look forward to meeting you someday, you've got a couch to crash on at my place anytime you're in Northern California.

[Steven Low]

Aside from things already said, 5/3/1 is still not a good program for beginners.

There's really no reason for having beginners work in the 1-3 RM range, despite how much I respect Wendler, because:

1. beginners do not have the developed training nervous system to take advantage of heavy weights, and
2. the fact that for most people they do NOT have good form, and working with heavy weights when not-so-good form is dangerous
3. 5/3/1 is a stand alone program; you cannot add a stand alone program together WITH sports specific work in most cases. This is asking for overuse injuries

As much as the fact he does actually state that it's fine for beginners with good form, anyone here can tell you someone doing their own program off the start is not going to have good form even if they believe they have good form.

That's why we always recommend someone get vids up of their technique, and purchasing something like Starting Strength because there are a lot of nuances that people don't even consider until they read 50+ pages on squat technique.


Regardless, I do think a focused progression towards strength is important but it has to be balanced with the needs of the sport in the context of skill/technique based training as well.

I even think SS is too much for most people if they're doing 3x a week with that and 3x a week parkour specific stuff (unless its all skill based). There's no need to go more than 5 days a week at the start, and if 5 days a week at least 2 or more of them need to be primarily skill based work because otherwise it's way too much on the body


For the record I am not a respector of persons. If someone is offering poor advice I'm gonna say something. Not to say yours is poor advice.. it's on the right track IMO.. but we can still do better.

I still am of the opinion that the best thing for Parkour at this point is: 2-3x a week linear progression strength along the lines of Starting Strength routine + 1-2x a week skill work for parkour (avoiding S&C work while practicing). 2 full off days required.

As strength and conditioning level improves you can add another 1 day to skill work for Parkour. Keep 2 full off days, and add in the skill work to a lifting day.

[Steven Low]

I think this may be a good thread for us to discuss what type of programs or programming we recommend for beginners and intermediate traceurs so we can produce and write an article on this topic.

I know we have various recommendations in the sticky but they are more generalized towards S&C in general and although we have some parkour specific stuff int he context that S&C in general is geared towards parkour we dont have any more specific recommendations for traceurs specifically.

Anyone want to chime in on what type of program we should recommend (say along the lines of SS) and how many days of skill training parkour to aim for (and what to practice more specifically)?


As you may know I think most of us like SS (3x a week strength linear progression) + 2 days of skill work + 2 days of full rest in something like say

M = SS
Tu = PK skill work
W = SS
Th = rest
F = SS
Sa = PK skill work
Su = rest

or variations depending on schedule

What type of skill type work should we recommend?

Should be recommend a modified form of SS? I do think this may be the case SINCE SS is a stand alone program and adding a considerable amount of extra volume (even if non-S&C) may be asking for an overuse injury

[Mr.WWII]

I think this may be a good thread for us to discuss what type of programs or programming we recommend for beginners and intermediate traceurs so we can produce and write an article on this topic.

I know we have various recommendations in the sticky but they are more generalized towards S&C in general and although we have some parkour specific stuff int he context that S&C in general is geared towards parkour we dont have any more specific recommendations for traceurs specifically.

Anyone want to chime in on what type of program we should recommend (say along the lines of SS) and how many days of skill training parkour to aim for (and what to practice more specifically)?


As you may know I think most of us like SS (3x a week strength linear progression) + 2 days of skill work + 2 days of full rest in something like say

M = SS
Tu = PK skill work
W = SS
Th = rest
F = SS
Sa = PK skill work
Su = rest

or variations depending on schedule

What type of skill type work should we recommend?

Should be recommend a modified form of SS?

I think accessory lifts are plenty essential. Pull-ups as probably the most important, for direct translation to muscle ups, climb ups, cat leaps etc. Perhaps dips could be used as a press exercise substitute each week as they have better translation to parkour movements than bench or OH do... SO every week in SS you're either overheading or benching once or twice... Substitute with dips on 1 day for whichever press you're supposed to do twice that week

So it might look like..

Week A: Bench   Overhead    Dips
           

Week B: Overhead  Bench    Dips

that's my 1st idea for now

[Mr.WWII]

I'm wondering about where to put pull-ups in. I'm afraid if they are on SS days then people will over train working on climb ups and such on skill training days. Perhaps pull-ups should be on the skill days..?

[Steven Low]

I wouldn't be against modifying SS such that you just keep the squat/DL/pclean and go with bodyweight strength stuff for upper body but I want to see what others think as well