Topic: Practicallity of flips and all that crap

[Tex__]

safety first.

[FreeStyleFox]

Safety second.  Because you always forget what you put first but if you are putting safety second then you are always thinking about it because its not something we hear every day.   

[Andrew Mumu Trahum]

Saftey's overrated... DiVeRoLlInToAtRuCk!

[Artisticflow87]

Another good post. I agree with most of what you say. The only point I'd like to pick out is the one about gymnastics and trickers. Not because I disagree, but because I think I could add a little perspective to it.

High level gymnasts are physically superior to traceurs in terms of their incredible functional strength and skills, no doubt about that- they have to be. The thing to remember though is the cost: re-constructive surgery. Neither discipline is inferior though. Gymnasts perform incredible feats and obliterate their joints, it's a choice of theirs. Traceurs aim for a steady, lasting life (etre et durer) and as such limit their capacity for expression and movement. None of these outlooks is more correct than the other, it's just a matter of preference. I hope that by reading this, you see that I'm not trying to compare arts to find which is "better" and I'm not telling people what to train. All I'm interested in is exploring how a traceur should prioritise their training to align with the goals of parkour if "parkour" is what they strive to be good at. I'm not trying to be unreasonable.

I agree, and no I dont think your trying to compare arts, your just making points.. As far as one of your points, I think that being a gymnast or traceur can both wear out the body over time and thats just the natural way of things, but it will come down to how far you are trying to take either of them. Gymnastics isnt all about tumbling, think of the raw calithestics strength you gain on the rings or bars (can improve dynos, climbs, muscle ups) or the amazing balance you gain on the balance beams, not to mention the muscle conditioning and explosiveness gained in your legs from gymnastic tumbling, in addition to gymnastic flexibility which reduces injury and pulled muscles..

Sometimes training for something else benefits other movements and activities too, but a major flaw I find in gymnastics is that its too structured and theres too many rules. Were id shine light on high skilled trickers in this argument is that they are probably more capable of compromising, and more creativity, & instinctual in their movements due to the difficult array of skills they are able to link together randomly. But both gymnasts and trickers both share cunning body control and are able to land on their feet from weird awkward positions without disorientation. You never know when such body awareness can come in hand, even in a isolated parkour situation.

But, overall for the sake of just being able to turn a flip without ''mastery'', there wont be much practicallity in flipping itself. In a real life situation if your trying to escape something/someone, It will generally come down to who has the most endurance and power to get fastest from point A to B... Power = (force x distance) ÷ time... Id assume at least 80% of your energy is going to be in straight out running as fast as you can, the other maybe 20% in climbing or leaping from something, and if you guys want to talk about practicality, there wont be anymore practicallity than running training to increase speed/distance. So instead of worrying about free runners and there flips, maybe the die hard traceurs should spend more time flat out running to increase endurance and speed, and work outs that involve increasing leg power and less time climbing rails and walls ( that is, if it really is all about the most useful practical thing to do under said circumstances) because Im willing to bet most of us dont live in an environment with architecture that calls for much "parkour training" aside from just running..Well I know I dont, I live in Tampa Florida with boring square houses and trees and flat land, and not much of a big city down town area.
Thus with that said, lets all just have fun and properly educate people in what we are doing...


I dont post much so figure Id say everything Im thinking... Ok Im done. 

[Luke MC]

Gymnastics isnt all about tumbling, think of the raw calithestics strength you gain on the rings or bars

It was the gymnastics rings I was referring to specifically. At the top level, athletes are expected to be able to hold and transition from the Maltese Cross which the human shoulder simply cannot deal with. I don't remember the exact figures from the article I read but basically all of these athletes end up destroying their shoulders and needing corrective surgery. At a (much) lower level though, this of course won't be the case.

But, overall for the sake of just being able to turn a flip without ''mastery'', there wont be much practicallity in flipping itself. In a real life situation if your trying to escape something/someone, It will generally come down to who has the most endurance and power to get fastest from point A to B... Power = (force x distance) ÷ time... Id assume at least 80% of your energy is going to be in straight out running as fast as you can, the other maybe 20% in climbing or leaping from something, and if you guys want to talk about practicality, there wont be anymore practicallity than running speed. So instead of worrying about free runners and there flips, maybe the die hard traceurs should spend more time flat out running to increase endurance and speed, and work outs that involve increasing leg power and less time climbing rails and walls ( that is, if it really is all about the most useful practical thing to do under said circumstances) because Im willing to bet most of us dont live in an environment with architecture that calls for much "parkour training" aside from just running..Well I know I dont, I live in Florida with boring square houses and trees and flat land, and not much of a down town.
Thus with that said, lets all just have fun and properly educate people in what we are doing...

I agree with this completely. Running is underrated and under-trained, yet completely vital to parkour. It should be the number one priority to train for a typical chase/reach scenario.

[Tex__]

I agree with this completely. Running is underrated and under-trained, yet completely vital to parkour. It should be the number one priority to train for a typical chase/reach scenario.

speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.

[Artisticflow87]

speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.

Its just a point to be made, I run all the time because Im into other sports, but from my own experience Ive yet to train with traceurs who spend any of their training day actually running for any amount of time worth speaking about... Which this is something I should put light on, to further everyones growth with different ways to train parkour...

Most of my parkour training experiences goes like this- standing around talking about stuff to climb or precision or kong or stride, try it a few times, sit down and talk about it some more, then move on to the next...

luke, yea we are on the same page just different ways of saying it.

This conversation makes me want to just go back to the good ol little kid days of playing tag or man hunt for another method of training parkour. Basically simulate real parkour situations, and having a group of people chasing each other around a given area as fast as they can, plus that would probably be fun...

Edit: Something else I just thought of, do any of you guys ever use a stop watch to time yourself on how quickly you do something during your training. Like say going from one side of something to the other etc... Ive never seen it, but something Im going to try also. Set a course and time each other, so less time focusing on conventional parkour skills, and more time focusing on what actually works the fastest in getting across your enviroment, whatever that may look like....

[Luke MC]

speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.

ArtisticFlow's response to this pretty much sums up what I'd say. Running is most definitely under-trained. Not by every single practitioner- as I know there are many who put the work in- but by the parkour scene as a whole. At least in my limited experience and travels.

[Tex__]

ArtisticFlow's response to this pretty much sums up what I'd say. Running is most definitely under-trained. Not by every single practitioner- as I know there are many who put the work in- but by the parkour scene as a whole. At least in my limited experience and travels.

i was playing with you. i do how ever run a lot.

[Rafe]

When ever someone says any chase emergency would just be running or just be speed vaults I think they lack experience and imagination. I grew up out in rural community with allot of independence and had some scary running away situations happen not mention playing tag and chase in the woods allot. Being able to do complex movements that require agility and co-ordination is important. It is also my opinion that generally being able to run far is not nearly as important as being fast, Nobody starts out a race at 8 minute mile pace its always a sprint first if you can quickly put distance between you and your opponent they will usually give up.

When I was 12 my neighbor caught me stealing adult magazine from his shop, I bolted, ended up running about hundred yards through the woods which included jumping over a fallen tree scrambling through bushes and jumping over a bike jump before he gave up the chase. Of course he was my next door neighbor so my victory was short lived as he just waited for me at my house and chewed me out there when I slunk back.

Another time I found a cabin in the woods with some friends, which turned out to be scarily filled with rifles and handguns, after poking around these guns for awhile we had gotten pretty freaked out, we heard a loud noise and bolted, the cabin was on a slope and had a back porch facing the slope we were afraid the guy who owned the place was coming through the front door so ended up taking the drop down from the porch 6-7 feet then sliding down this slope scrambling through bushes down to the stream we had been climbing up running down that bouncing rock to rock till we got the too logging road that had brought us there.

In second grade I got the brillant Idea to assault a 5th grader with 4 buddies for fun. They jumped on his ankles while I jumped of the big toy and tackled him and punched him around the ears. A teacher caught us and we all got detention, the next day though he caught me alone on the playground and started chasing me, I ran to a set of concrete pipes that were too narrow for bigger kids to slid into it and waited the him out untill recess was over, after that we ended up talking in detention and becoming friends.

Finally as bouncer I had to chase people down a few times the obstacles there were people usually then it was all about dogding and maneuvering and screaming for them to move but once a patron got pissed of and kicked out a window next door and I really thought I was going to have to vault something to catch him as I was anticipating him turning behind some concrete blocks, sadly he was to slow and I caught him before he could put the object between us,  I really wanted to kong to tackle that guy.

There are arguments that flips can benefit air awareness and body control and may be usefull in some pretty rare situations. I think those arguments are not well supported but learning a few flips certainly won't hurt your PK.
 
I have done time trials through numerous enviroments played games of chase and tag and never once while trying to adapt and move as fast as possible through any enviroment has a flip seemed like a good idea despite having a background in gymnastics prior to parkour. I did have one athlete I trained who would throw double legs in courses with objects that were to soft to vault over and to high to jump(the hedge/barbwire idea) however he was very good tricker with minimal parkour experience I suspect had he spent the same attention to training basic jumps as flips he would have been able to jump over those objects with better control and safety then a flip offered. This the problem with ryan doyle example to if you train flips way more then jumps there might be situations that they're more usefull if you don't bias your training then I think that is pretty unlikely.

In any event I prefer to focus on a positive definition of parkour not a negative one, train to be usefull to be able to overcome obstacles as effectively as possible. If you think about that honestly the majority of your training will be simple movements, running, jumping, climbing and moving on all fours. If you do a flip now and then great if you find yourself focusing mostly on flips I don't think your doing Parkour anymore then a tricker is training for a streetfight whether the tricks are martial arts based or not.

[FreeStyleFox]

Thanks for you incite Rafe!  Your posts are always inspiring.  Also I love the quote in your sig!

[DaveS]

Just going to try and tie up a few loose ends in this thread.

The comparison between gymnasts and Parkour practitioners: The two groups practice different things. Gymnasts will be more physically capable, but less mentally capable. Gymnastics is a physical discipline, but Parkour is a complete discipline, physical and mental.

For movement purposes, acrobatics can be a useful way to get past some obstacles. Those obstacles aren't common, but they can exist.
For Parkour purposes, acrobatics can help us learn about ourselves by providing us with extra variety. We already have plenty of variety in practical movement to help us learn, but we can use it in Parkour if we do ever need more for whatever reason.

Running is a very practical way of moving around. It's the most efficient way to get from one place to another quickly. Also, flat ground is a very common obstacle.
However, the other side of the coin is that flat ground is also a very easy obstacle. For Parkour we want obstacles that challenge us, and flat ground presents a limited form of challenge for most of us. It's good to practice running sometimes, but the more capable you get the less practical it is to create challenges for yourself based on running.
Ultimately, the choice about whether or not to use running a lot in your Parkour should depend on what you are trying to improve through Parkour. Different kinds of challenge help you develop in different ways. We all need to learn about ourselves at the start, but at some point we also need to start improving ourselves in order to deal with the challenges life presents. Flips help us learn about ourselves, but they don't help us with the challenges we face in life as well as other things.

[Rafe]

On the topic of the physical development of gymnasts vs. traceurs, its not a fair comparison few traceurs are coached through the extensive training hours that even jr. level gymnasts go through. The gymnastics team I worked with had 8 year olds training 3 days a week 4 hours a day. The successfull level 9 and 10 programs would have kids doing split shift workouts doing 2 hours of conditioning in the morning and 3 hours of skill work in the afternoon. At the elite level 6 hours a day 5-6 days a week is normal and their training is far more directed then what the average traceurs calls training.

If we had athletes training with the same seriousness for parkour the would attain very similar levels of physical capacity.

[FreeStyleFox]

45 Minutes.  Rafe good point some people do train that hard and with that seriousness but it is uncommon for a most.

[Artisticflow87]

Just going to try and tie up a few loose ends in this thread.

The comparison between gymnasts and Parkour practitioners: The two groups practice different things. Gymnasts will be more physically capable, but less mentally capable. Gymnastics is a physical discipline, but Parkour is a complete discipline, physical and mental.

For movement purposes, acrobatics can be a useful way to get past some obstacles. Those obstacles aren't common, but they can exist.
For Parkour purposes, acrobatics can help us learn about ourselves by providing us with extra variety. We already have plenty of variety in practical movement to help us learn, but we can use it in Parkour if we do ever need more for whatever reason.

Running is a very practical way of moving around. It's the most efficient way to get from one place to another quickly. Also, flat ground is a very common obstacle.
However, the other side of the coin is that flat ground is also a very easy obstacle. For Parkour we want obstacles that challenge us, and flat ground presents a limited form of challenge for most of us. It's good to practice running sometimes, but the more capable you get the less practical it is to create challenges for yourself based on running.
Ultimately, the choice about whether or not to use running a lot in your Parkour should depend on what you are trying to improve through Parkour. Different kinds of challenge help you develop in different ways. We all need to learn about ourselves at the start, but at some point we also need to start improving ourselves in order to deal with the challenges life presents. Flips help us learn about ourselves, but they don't help us with the challenges we face in life as well as other things.

Good post, the part I put in bold words is also the reason I see so many people transition from just doing parkour, to doing free running... Its more challenging in my opinion, and furthers their growth even if its not as practical, which is why I said IF it were really all about practicality then we'd just run...

Also you said gymnast are more physically capable but less mentally, Everyone is less capable mentally in something they dont regularly do vs someone who does, but there it is, give a traceur some gymnast training ( remaining true to parkour when its about parkour mind you) and he will re-enter the parkour scene as an upgraded and more versatile practitioner even if he never uses any of the flips he acquired. Even if its only for some of the sheer conditioning from the tumbling and other gymnastic activities . So I guess when we talk about practicality of flips we have to be specific... Practicality in escaping some one, nah. Practicality on personal, mental, physical growth, I think so...

& Rafe interesting stories.

[DaveS]

Rafe, I generally agree, but since a Parkour practitioner generally has both mental and physical abilities to practice I think it is inevitable that there is less emphasis on physical training in Parkour than in gymnastics. With similar levels of time devoted to training that can only lead to less physical development, although I agree that the differences would be slight from the perspective of a member of the public.

Artisticflow, I think gymnasts are less capable of overcoming mental challenges in general. Challenges like getting up early in the morning, or finding a solution to a new problem. The mental abilities that these tasks use are not activity specific.
Gymnastics doesn't give you anything like the mental growth that Parkour does. Gymnasts never have to get past obstacles on their own, because their coaches tell them what to do every step of the way. Gymnasts don't train the mind like Parkour practitioners do because they're only concerned with physical performance. They will be less capable at dealing with mental challenges of all kinds.

[Tex__]

Rafe i agree.

also you where a rambunctious little kids.

[FreeStyleFox]

Bob Barker reminding you: help control the pet population. Have your pet spayed or neutered. Goodbye, everybody!

[Andy Keller]

Glad this ended well. Thanks for the cooperation, everyone.