Topic: Parkour i have sinned :( (What to do about rude or even violent people)

[Tex__]

chris you also give great advice

btw don't stand your ground laws say if you are not doing anything illegal and are in a place you legally can be at and are threatened you may meet force with force and defend your self or others from harm, including (depending on local laws) the use of firearms?

asking because i don't remember, but i did a paper on my opposition to gun restriction laws and read about the stand your ground laws

[Chris Seaton]

Not really sure I can comment on that without getting into potentially risky gray areas. 

Thanks for the kind words, though.

[Tex__]

i understand, btw the best advice seems to come from Chris, m2, Colby, and sometimes harrrrrrrrrrrison

[andrew]

i understand, btw the best advice seems to come from Chris, m2, Colby, and sometimes harrrrrrrrrrrison

i sense lies...
and, did they really throw a hammer?!?

[Tex__]

yeah it missed, but i nearly fell off, ten feet, onto concrete covered in nails

[Mark Toorock]

I have to ask what you did to make them throw a hammer, and try to be honest. People don't just throw hammers at people, even really f#cked up people. Did you yell at them? Scare them? Say anything to them?

Now, if someone threw a hammer at me - it really depends on my mood - what I hope my reaction would be (presuming it missed).

Pick up the hammer, walk back, hold it up over their face in a threatening way, and then drop it on the floor after they piss themselves.

Remember this: no matter who is right or wrong, you will wake up with your own conscious every day for the rest of your life. Let's say you smash someone's nose with a hammer that they threw at you and missed with. Is that what you want to know you did for the rest of your life? Because you will.

Now, if the hammer hits you, we get into "equal force", and yeah, I'd be mad, depending on the severity of my injury and what lead up to it - I'd probably do something painful but not harmful to the person. I might also simply apply enough force to restrain them and then call the police and then have them arrested for being a stupid enough person to throw a hammer. To me, causing someone embarrassment over their own action and being able to do something that doesn't physically hurt them is like winning thrice. For the rest of their life they will know what they did, and for the rest of my life I will know what I did. You can be sure they will remember me as well.

As for stealing a watch - I remember when someone keyed two cars I owned when I was about 22. Yes, 2 - my new ford Probe that I raced and my 1970 Camaro Z28RS (which I'd painstakingly rebuilt over 5 years). I wanted to kill him. My martial arts teacher at the time was the only person I felt to be a suitable source for advice, as I could have killed him (physically) and probably fairly easily. My teacher reminded me that the car was a piece of metal and could be replaced with money and said something to the effect of did I want to set that value for my own mind.

If you, 467 days later, are still thinking about your watch, then it's time to buy a new watch. Otherwise, they stole not only your watch, but your 467 days to boot.

The moral of the story here - don't let other people control you, that is the true victory, be and remain the person you want to be.

[Jeff Ferguson]

To me, causing someone embarrassment over their own action and being able to do something that doesn't physically hurt them is like winning thrice. For the rest of their life they will know what they did, and for the rest of my life I will know what I did. You can be sure they will remember me as well.

Respect for the sentiment, but I disagree that they'll care for long if they don't get a scar to remind them, NOT THAT I'M SAYING TO PHYSICALLY SCAR SOMEONE EVER. Maybe it's just the people where I live, but if you don't beat the crap out of them, they still feel like they've won or something. Before I ever even heard the term parkour I was catching shit from at least 80% of the people I went to school with and I tried not to get physical about it because I have a pretty messy past with that kind of thing and I was trying to turn over a new leaf. But with the insistence of people throwing bottles and food only a day after they'd been chewed out by teachers or even by myself, I snapped and broke a few jaws and gave half the football team such a thrashing that they couldn't even touch the field for a couple of games. After that people stopped throwing things and I actually got some friendly respect for a change.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the small stuff doesn't count for shit like middle fingers and the like, but when people stop treating you like a human being, it's time to demand respect, or you'll never get it. I'd rather risk some jack-offs get hurt for the sake of traceurs getting some basic decency than keep playing friendly and getting seen as highly mobile dormats because I'm sick of people trying to get me hurt just because I'm doing something they don't like or whatever they're motivation is.

[Colby Zayne Gamache]

Jeff, you have to understand something. Even in the worst environments, there are ways around violence. I understand the type of place you're describing. I've been there...but i want you to understand the possible volume of your actions.

Way back when, I was always getting messed with because i was a minority. It started out verbal, moved into slightly physical, and then i got jumped by 12 people INSIDE my house. When it happened, i lost it. I "snapped" if you will...sure, i was under complete rights to do what i did, but it still messes with me. M2, since you have a martial art background, you understand what i mean when i say that i saw several options in that fight, and i chose the one i wanted to go with.

Since i was letting my anger control me, I ended up fracturing two of the guys spines. They're paralyzed now, and it's because of me. It's because i didnt control my anger and keep control of the entire situation. So now, every day that i get up and walk around, the thought still passes through my head that i took that away from someone. Can you imagine what that would feel like? To not be able to get out of bed and walk to the bathroom? Could you honestly take that priveledge away from someone?

I know that anger is a strong and controllive emotion, but you have to learn to control it, just like we control fear. If you aren't thinking clear when you make a choice, that choice could ruin your life. I was lucky and got away on a simple battery charge...


and as for keeping the peace when you're out training, if someone is just messing with you, ask them to join you. When they say they dont know how to do that, ask them if they want you to teach them.

If it gets violent, aren't we training in an art that is basically designed to chase someone down or escape from a threat?

[Jeff Ferguson]

Oh, I understand that there are ways to avoid violence. Just something as simple as walking away can avoid violence most of the time. The thing is, if someone is trying to harm me either directly or indirectly, even with a clear head my decision is to step on them rather than around them. Honestly if people were held accountable for their actions a little more often, I wouldn't have to worry about this kind of crap. And on the count asking them to join/learn, in my experiance this is met with ridicule and insult.

I could care less if they want to poke fun or mock me, so long as it's not risking my well being. But the next time someone attempts to get me hurt, I'll show them what it's like when someone really good at hurting gives it a shot. If you guys want to simply turn the other cheek, I'll respect your decision and your resolve for your beliefs, but I'm going to solve the problem they only way that works for me. If you're worried about what image I'm giving the sport, don't be, I clean peoples litter while I'm out practicing and catch lost dogs with my talents, so please take that into account before you pass judgement.

On a seperate note: I can't imagine why it bothers you that someone who broke into your house and attacked you can't walk. Sounds to me like you made the world a safer place.

[Alexz]

Oh, I understand that there are ways to avoid violence. Just something as simple as walking away can avoid violence most of the time. The thing is, if someone is trying to harm me either directly or indirectly, even with a clear head my decision is to step on them rather than around them. Honestly if people were held accountable for their actions a little more often, I wouldn't have to worry about this kind of crap. And on the count asking them to join/learn, in my experiance this is met with ridicule and insult.

I could care less if they want to poke fun or mock me, so long as it's not risking my well being. But the next time someone attempts to get me hurt, I'll show them what it's like when someone really good at hurting gives it a shot. If you guys want to simply turn the other cheek, I'll respect your decision and your resolve for your beliefs, but I'm going to solve the problem they only way that works for me. If you're worried about what image I'm giving the sport, don't be, I clean peoples litter while I'm out practicing and catch lost dogs with my talents, so please take that into account before you pass judgement.

On a seperate note: I can't imagine why it bothers you that someone who broke into your house and attacked you can't walk. Sounds to me like you made the world a safer place.

The most efficient route.

[Chris Seaton]

M2, Jeff, and Colby all have valid points here.

I appreciate M2 bringing up the idea of embarrassing someone rather than hurting them.  One of the things that can specifically wound a man worse than physical violence is taking away his pride.  At the point where you make someone who tries to hurt you suffer TOTAL HUMILIATION you're doing a lot more lasting "damage" to them than if you act in a manner of physical violence. 

Colby, you're absolutely right.  There's a point to controlling our emotions.  Dr. Paul Ekman, one of the nation's most compelling authorities on the subject, stated that emotions can often get in the way of allowing us to evolve as human beings.  That's not to say that we can't and shouldn't experience our emotional pallet when we live life, we just need to realize that emotions are a reflexive reaction our bodies have developed to deal with various situations.  When you learn to control your fear and anger, and instead can react calmly, peacefully, and logically, you have made yourself a better person and more adaptable. 

Isn't that what we all want as traceurs and traceuses?  To learn to adapt? 

Jeff, again.  You have the right and the ability to defend yourself.  But at the point when you use more force than is reasonably necessary to defend yourself, you're crossing the line from self-defense into possible problems with the law.  And frankly, I do agree with you  that if people were held accountable for their actions a little more often, we wouldn't have a problem with crap like this.  Just don't get caught up in the moment and suffer the consequences, bro. 

[Mark Toorock]

Jeff, I absolutely agree that everyone, not just "more people", should be accountable for their actions. This is why I believe in Parkour. When you jump, you are 100% responsible for your actions, nobody else, and people learn from that and most people will gain self esteem, self respect, and yes, responsibility.

I think the only place with differ is what "held responsible" should mean. I am a fan of very harsh prison sentences where people sort recyclables for 20 years, or clean the sewers, or a host of other jobs that aren't nearly as pleasant as working out in a sunny prison yard and getting 3 squares a day. I feel that people who commit violent or rape crimes should be given neither dignity nor respect nor be allowed to have any until they earn it. Frankly, when someone hits a dog, my sensors go off - as a person, you do (usually) have the fight or flight OPTION and so people can choose flight, but someone beating a dog that is on a leash or tied up gets under my skin and I have threatened people and I probably would have been aggressive and violent with those people if they didn't stop their actions immediately.

I have also been in fights (I high school) and I understand that it can feel like respect or pride is on the line, however if the only way someone respects you is if you break their jaw, then THEY are the idiot. Don't meet them on their playing field. If it doesn't bother you that you broke someone's jaw, then I guess in the end it is you I feel bad for. If you wouldn't feel bad to break someone's spine, yes, even if they beat you up - then it is you I feel bad for. Again, you have every right to your decisions and actions, well, until you break someone's jaw - but that's up to you, and as long as you are held accountable for your actions as well, then I suppose it's all even.

[Will Ahlberg]

I care.

I agree - you did the wrong thing.

Yes, it seems like a small gesture, but you know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it - if that is the reaction that we have to others, then that is the view that people will have of people doing parkour and freerunning.

We train to be better than our previous selves, to be stronger, more capable. Don't show a weakness like that. Don't sink to the level of someone teasing you. Instead, walk over and invite them to join you. they will come up with an excuse, but then you are the person training and they are the person making fun of someone - you choose which you want to be and how you want parkour to be perceived.

I know this sounds like "quite a rant" for someone flipping someone off - but EACH of us is responsible for how parkour is perceived. It s little actions that make or break things, it is the actions of single individuals that change the world. start now

I agree totally with M2. We shouldnt be sinking to other people's levels and giving others the wrong idea of parkour. tell them to come over and try it themselves next time.

[greenchaoman]

"If these people were living their lives to the full, they wouldn't have time to judge mine. I should ignore them and concentrate on living mine, lest I one day become like them."

[Tex__]

I have to ask what you did to make them throw a hammer, and try to be honest. People don't just throw hammers at people, even really f#cked up people. Did you yell at them? Scare them? Say anything to them?

according to him he threw it because i look ugly, great reason... im really not shitting you i had never talk to the guy before this situation.

because i grew up in a lower class area i try to be peaceful, but i think there is a time to lower yourself. when i was 14 i was riding my bike and some drunk college kids rode up next to me and started throwing glass beer bottles at me and calling me a fag (manly men pick on a 14 year old in groups). so i slashed there tires while they were in a gas station.

i will defend myself with out using excessive force however as M2 mentioned earlier there are some things that get under your skin, i also get very angry when people beat dogs. also when people get in groups and jump minorities, here it seems to be homosexuals that get it the worse. i am straight, but some of my friends are gay and if someone gets a group together and hospitalizes one of my friends because there gay. im going to hunt down everyone of them and prevent them from doing it again

taking someones pride away is a great method, and works when its me thats being picked on (i get a kick out of humiliating people like that). but i can defend myself, worst comes to worst i can get way because i practice parkour. if i cant i usually have car keys or a knife with me (ever since i got the shit kicked out of me for being white) i am less likely to resort to violence because i can defend myself.

but when you get into groups to attack someone who can't defend themself, it is no longer about teaching you a lesson, at that point it becomes stopping you before you seriously hurt or kill someone that is innocent

let me ask you this, lets say someone jumps a minority, and you could go and do something after the fact. but you don't. a week later they jump another person and that person dies. even if what you do is call the cops it is still something.

as for people attacking you in your home, if it was my home (in texas this is legal) i would shoot them, and i would shoot to kill, without a single ounce of regret.

[zac]

On a side note to all of this. I have read all of this perspectives and are really opening my eyes to different ways. Thanks everyone
Sincerely,
          Guy who started topic 

[Tex__]

i would like to say, in case it was unclear in my rant (im really tired today) that i do not support mindless violence, but i think that as human beings we have a right to protect ourselves, and as people we have the responsibility to help those who can not help themselves, even if doing so puts us at risk, simply because we can, and if you could not defend yourself, you would want people to help, as appose to them turning a blind eye on the wrongs being done.

[Michael Himes]

If I was met with violence I would run. I might do something to make it harder for them to chase me but I'm small. Like 110 pounds, if someone really was trying to hurt me they would and could. Even without parkour I've been the best at escape. Though if someone threaten my friends or family my first reaction would be to back them up. If I actually hurt someone badly I would feel a little regret, but I'd also feel they deserve it. Though for me, I'm afraid of hurting someone. Even if someone jumped me and I had no escape I wouldn't be able to throw a full force punch at there jaw. My first reaction would be to take away control with something that wouldn't hurt too much. Maybe a kick the the back of the leg and pull their arm back so they're on the ground.

So far in highschool I haven't been in fights. I've broken up fights and kept my friends from getting into fights. Of course highschool is all about respect and your clique and respect is gained through how "manly" you are or something. I never understood them because I've been me and I don't care what the others think and say. If I'm a pussy for running or walking away from some dude trying to talk shit, so be it. Where does this status get you in life. My own personal opinion would be flight before fight, but a situation differs.

I have to agree with M2 the most. Jeff has a point but I don't stand behind it.

[Tex__]

If you really can't defend yourself that easily then I would suggest you invest In a pair of brass knuckles or a knife and learn to use it In a non lethal manor, now when I say brass knuckles I mean because they are small and very effective, however if you would act like some punk ass wanna be gangster and flash them around the don't get them. If you have them you shod never advertise you have them, that is asking for trouble. They should be there so that you can protect yourself in a Life threatning situation. Some places they are illegal but so check your local laws. If they are the a knife smaller then the lenght of your hand is legal and another good deterent if you ever are in a position where running isn't An option.

If you decide to carry a weapon DO NOT flash it around. It is asking for trouble. Keep it to yourself and out of sight, it should only be used in a life or death instance, and make sure you know how to use it in a way that you will not hurt yourself or kill or permently hurt your attacker. And if questioned by a suspsious offeicer, tell them you are Armed so that it does not look like you were planning to use it for the wrong reason

[Mark Toorock]

Texas Pete, I'm going to have to say that's some of the worst advice I've heard on these forums.

You do not need a knife or a weapon to defend yourself.

Life is not full of people looking to hurt you.

This is part of "the problem", is people walking around "waiting for it" - if you put a knife in your pocket every day, then you have a certain view of the world and your role in it.

I'd rather die "some day" than spend the rest of my life worrying about the day I'll be jumped or attacked. To me this is like my philosophy that if I die doing Parkour, in a sense it's OK because at least I DID something and not just spend my life waiting for nothing to happen like the rest of the world does. If I fall off my motorcycle on a beautiful ride, well, I got to experience those beautiful rides. In other words, for me personally, it is better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all

Putting a weapon in your pocket is the opposite to my advice. Live free, enjoy your life, deal with problems when they arise. Be mentally prepared, and if you train parkour you will be more physically prepared then you might give yourself credit for.


Also Texas Pete, saying "learn how to use it in a way that will not hurt yourself or kill or permanently hurt your attacker" shows that you know and understand very little about actual knife fighting and defense. If you pull a knife, someone is going to be seriously injured period. Anything you believe about someone "knowing how to use it" is a crock of shit.  If you think you know something about knife fighting, put on a long sleeved white shirt and give your friend a red sharpie, then let reality begin.