Author Topic: Protein or no protein?  (Read 1357 times)

Offline Rafe

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2010, 10:20:50 PM »
My understanding is quite a few sprint coaches like Clyde hart trainer of Michael Johnson and Jeremy Wariner have there athletes do a lot of tempo work which is primarily aerobic if not exactly LSD. On the theory it aids recovery builds endurance, and helps movement efficiency. The key to me is the athletes are very fast and the tempo work is low enough intensity to not cause a significant adaption in body mass or fiber type.

I believe the base for everyone should be strength and speed first but some degree of Aerobic base is not a bad thing, and the pendulum may have swung to far away form aerobic work at this point after being way to far towards it.
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Offline Matt Z

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2010, 12:03:50 PM »
Yeah, I was trying to prevent all these conspiracies... haha.

If I didn't make my goals clear enough, sorry for the confusion :P I was strength training but I stopped lifting heavy weight and stared doing more core muscle building things. (planches headstand pushups... Basically everything you can find in Exercises on this site).

The only reason why I was asking if taking protein would be good for the exercises listed above, is because I 'm not that used to them. So, for example, running on the midsection of my foot tore the hell out of my legs and tendons on the bottom of my feet and I was wondering if taking protein would help heal these faster or would it be useless.

My conclusion: I'm only doing strength training on my triceps, lats, and forearms to improve my muscle-ups. Once I am satisfied with my muscle ups, I will stop strength training in those areas. I will continue to take protein also... as for milk... i'm going to spend time on research before I drink a gallon a day or anything.
I thank everyone who contributed to this tread also  8)
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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2010, 12:34:35 PM »
I use to be a professional cyclist. I would do 5-6 hour rides at times. We would do races that were 117 miles in four hours. In America, there are some sprinters/track racers who can keep up with these long pain-throbbing races without doing much cardio. The winner of the national criterum championship last year did 12 hours a week of riding plus lots of weights. People with lots of fast-twitch can hold their own in any of these races. Racers like these only do two to three hour rides. Training strength, power and speed will also impact your levels of cardiovascular fitness and endurance. Like Steve writes in his training article says “Maximal strength will create maximal endurance.”

To clarify, (LSD) is long steady distance. HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) provides much better results. It burns fat and gains some muscle. VO2 intervals are not LSD. Still for parkour it's not necessary unless that person has trouble with endurance and the traceur can't get the full benefit out of sprints, or the Traceur needs to focus on cardio for medical reasons.

The difference from recreational riders and serious riders is the interval intensities. Some serious riders you might think do long rides, but if they do this it's either to enjoy themselves or they are making the mistake common in many endurance athletes of adding too much volume. Serious endurance athletes do intervals. Endurance athletes just don’t run. Steve explains this in his article, here: < http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php/topic,9469.0.html > Read about the energy pathways and the stuff under it.

Parkour, a sport where the longest run might be 15-20 minutes if that, is not as constant as cycling or running.  In those 15 minutes of running you will probably have to stop countless times and figure out what you’re going to do. You will have to stop and think at a barroer because many techniques require proper positioning. If you can run 15-20 minutes at a constant hard pace you (1) Know your way around, (2) Considering it is 15 minutes of parkour, there are probably a lot of various and some difficult obstacles to go over so you would have to be well trained. Consider that as you run the odds will only increase that you will see harder and more various number of barriers and challenges and finally (3) especialy if you're to consider 1, you've practiced a lot. If you can deal with a number of different obstacles, and you can accomplish many physically daunting tasks, you are well trained. And if we’re considering the points made in the paragraphs above, running 15 minutes should be no problem to someone of this nature. In addition, you will HAVE to take time to rest while you’re running so you can save energy for harder parts of the course (I learned this by TTs, Cross races and MTB races).

You might be doing parkour for 2-3 hours but with that being said, a lot of that time is spent resting. Recovering quickly is a lot different than endurance and will benefit you more in parkour. If this is a problem for you, you can do this by sprinting intervals with little time to recover. You won’t find much help through constant endurance. Endurance is constant controlled speed while parkour is very dynamic. Running won’t get much done for you.

Running LSD will also take away from your fast-twitch muscles converting more of them into slow-twitch.  If you want to do high-jumps and movements that take A LOT of power than you’re going to have to train for that.

Gymnasts, as you can infer from above, not only just don’t need endurance, but it won’t help them, it will waste energy on other things you could be doing and most importantly, it will take away some of their fast-twitch muscles

With all that being said, running for 5-10 minutes won’t hurt you too much and I wouldn’t consider that LSD. Don't do LSD unless if you're working endurance. Endurance is measured by time and not by miles. So if you're training to run or bike once a year in your base period do that period once with tempo.

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As for LSD stripping away muscle mass it’s true if you do it a lot. You’re chances to bonk will go up, and it will use energy from your muscle mass instead. In addition, protein is used for LSD as an energy source and that protein being used won’t be used for muscle mass.

Quote by Steve


Quote
Sorry terry, marathon runners don't really have different needs as opposed to the rest of us. Due to particular genetics? Sure. Due to the fact they run marathons? No. (if you're talking about carb loading that is).

Most of the energy during extended runs comes from oxidative phosphorylation and at an extended runs the main source of fuel for this is metabolism of fat through B-oxidation. Eating a diet higher in fats and lower in carbs will actually help speed up the process (or rather make it more efficient) for long distance runners to switch over to B-oxidation after starting a run thus making it more sustainable.

p.s. same thing occurs in the tour de france especially by the 3rd day or so.


When Caloric intake falls, protein is broken down and is converted into gluscose. This impedes growth and repair tissue.

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Recommending for someone to gain weight isn't bad if that person is thin. Most sprinters, gymnast have a BMI on the normal/somewhat high side.

As a matter of my opinion, proper strength training makes you put on an ideal amount of muscle mass.  This amount of muscle mass is necessary to be optimally strong, powerful and graceful.  However, most people train for the mass itself, which does not allow for the same level of strength.

Focusing on strength training while in a caloric surplus puts on the exact right amount of mass for as strong as you are looking to become...this amount of mass just happens to make you look bigger than your average joe.

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IRT, Matt Z

Are you referring to isolating those muscles?

Well, if you’re not, you should be doing weighted pull-ups/ (possibly negatives at the top) and in addition, do weighted dips full ROM as well. Planche work can also augment your muscle-ups. Finally, do muscle-up negatives.

And again, as I explained above, protein can help repair injuries. Protein has a lot of functions in the human body. Eat a lot OF PROTEIN FOR EVERYTHING!

 I have no idea why you asked us that question and you’re not even listening.



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Guys, most of this stuff I found in the search function and a lot of it were in the stickies. Feel free to correct me I’m sure a couple of things I said were wrong. However, I at least used the stickies in the search function.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 02:51:07 PM by FastGuppy »
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Offline Matt Z

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2010, 01:04:48 PM »
FastGuppy:
That was very helpful, thank you. I would of done more searching through the forums but I 'm pretty new to all these terms and when searching I had no clue what it all meant. For example I thought LSD was someone talking about taking the drug...

Isolating these muscle groups is actually what i'm looking to do if it will help for better healing.
Is this true?, I only assumed that if only one group is being healed, your body can do this faster rather than healing many muscle groups.

So, I now know that it's very good for healing, and I know amounts to take for aerobic or strength exercises... but...
I have done many hours of research on protein and have read many things saying that too much protein can harm you, but, for the sake of the search button, I will search on these forums first :)
Post anything you know about side effects of too much protein in the mean time though.

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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2010, 02:34:27 PM »
The only reason why I was asking if taking protein would be good for the exercises listed above, is because I 'm not that used to them. So, for example, running on the midsection of my foot tore the hell out of my legs and tendons on the bottom of my feet and I was wondering if taking protein would help heal these faster or would it be useless.

You should really see a PT then. If you want to continue to do parkour and athletics see a PT and stop running for a bit. In addition, read the proper running sticky. Anytime someone gives you advice take it with a big salt shaker. That advice depends on the content of situation. We don't know much about your injury so we won't be able to give you much advice. Someone in the injury forum might be able to help you but I i'll just tell you to see your PT. I'm not entitled to an opinion in this matter. You can avoid a lot of injuries with proper form.

If you have an injury and you want to gain some typical cardio with this information I would suggest biking or swimming. Both are good for your tendons and biking is good for your knees. You also might get some squat strength from the bike believe or not. Won't help with your jump much though.

Quote
Isolating these muscle groups is actually what i'm looking to do if it will help for better healing.
Is this true?, I only assumed that if only one group is being healed, your body can do this faster rather than healing many muscle groups.

You really need to invest in starting strength: basic barebell training.



Full body movements such as weighted dips and pull-ups will produce Muscular growth and connective tissue, a body that works in one harmonious unit, neurological activity (CNS activity), healthy releases of essential hormones and specific work for muscle-ups. This is provided that you do them right, which is full range of motion.

Isolation movements won’t really do anything but get that muscle stronger. You won’t even get a fraction of the benefits as you doing pull-ups and dips.

The conventional wisdom (Rippetoe’s favorite term) of protein is that too much of it can gather in your system. If too much is collected it goes to waste. So you will be pissing your protein out. Your protein might clog up in your kidneys creating kidney stones. Even worse, according to many nutritional experts you can enter bad metabolic states where you won’t run you energy on glucose putting your organs at risk for failure. This is the Mickey Mouse version of it

These guys, don’t take into the account protein is used as a form of energy. It’s amazing that some people can get degrees and then not pay attention to the Krebs cycle. I’m guessing you’ve been reading claims on such as the above and probably one that says 0.8 grams of protein per kilo or 0.36 for lbs. This is what the DRI (Dietary Reference Intake). These dietary recommendations replaced the RDA (Recommend Daily Allowances). Both suggest nutritional levels that might prevent nutrition-related diseases.

Protein intake depends on activity and age. The RDA and DRI don’t take this into consideration.  If you do get a little bit more than say something like 2.2 grams you probably will still be okay because you will probably flush. This is pretty hard to get. Considering too much protein in your diet could only affect you in the long run, you’re not in trouble here.

Link here: http://www.sportlink.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=350&Itemid=252
 
If you don’t get enough protein while you’re training you will be overstrained, depressed and potentially getting sick.

It’s hard to eat enough protein and the people who do measure how much they eat do it very well because if they don’t they are more likely to err on not eating enough.

In short, too much of anything is bad for you. Most everything out there on fitness is BS. Many good doctors and good athletes are full of BS so don’t let them play the authority card. Look it up, read it, question it and learn from the logic. That means use the search function.  If you want to research do some here.
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Offline Matt Z

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2010, 09:57:06 PM »
These guys, don’t take into the account protein is used as a form of energy. It’s amazing that some people can get degrees and then not pay attention to the Krebs cycle. I’m guessing you’ve been reading claims on such as the above and probably one that says 0.8 grams of protein per kilo or 0.36 for lbs. This is what the DRI (Dietary Reference Intake). These dietary recommendations replaced the RDA (Recommend Daily Allowances). Both suggest nutritional levels that might prevent nutrition-related diseases.

I have done quite a bit of research on how much protein  to take for body size, metabolism, and activity. Also, no matter what people say you "should do" you have to find what works for yourself. Many people say "do this this and this and take these things", but just because it works for one, it won't work for everyone. There are general rules and facts but some things have to be modified to fit you.

Full body movements such as weighted dips and pull-ups will produce Muscular growth and connective tissue, a body that works in one harmonious unit, neurological activity (CNS activity), healthy releases of essential hormones and specific work for muscle-ups. This is provided that you do them right, which is full range of motion.

So you're saying that doing full ROMs of exercises that directly relate to muscle ups (dips, pull ups etc) with weights will improve muscle gain and connective tissue better than lets just say seated triceps exercises (cable gym machines)?


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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 05:45:40 AM »
I have done quite a bit of research on how much protein  to take for body size, metabolism, and activity. Also, no matter what people say you "should do" you have to find what works for yourself. Many people say "do this this and this and take these things", but just because it works for one, it won't work for everyone. There are general rules and facts but some things have to be modified to fit you.



There are some rules/limits. I've seen anorexic people say: "well it works better for me" when asked about how much they should eat. Taking too little protein is easy, and taking too much protein is rather hard. Like I said again, too much of anything is bad. I've seen people drink too much water. That doesn't mean you should lower the amount of water you take. Any athlete who exercises at least 3 times a week will need a lot more protein (at least 2x more) than say The Dude in the big lebowski. If you want muscular strength this is necessary. Do what you want though.


I don't see why you're asking anyone this question when you've already answered it yourself.


So you're saying that doing full ROMs of exercises that directly relate to muscle ups (dips, pull ups etc) with weights will improve muscle gain and connective tissue better than lets just say seated triceps exercises (cable gym machines)?

YES. 99 percent of everyone here will say that.


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Offline Matt Z

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 10:34:42 PM »

I don't see why you're asking anyone this question when you've already answered it yourself.


Well, I asked it originally because I didn't know the answer. But noticing that many people on this site know a lot more than I do (or at least know the health vocab to have a conversation) so this wasn't the only thread I was looking at for answers.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Protein or no protein?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2010, 10:47:59 PM »
Thank you for cleaning up your information FastGuppy.
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