Topic: Conditioning the Lower Body Without Using Weights

[Ryan Gilchrist]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forums, but have been training parkour for little over a year.

I've tried numerous training methods, including Methode Naturelle, The Rotary System Method (Found on Blane's Parkour blog), weekly structured training of many kinds, and gauntlet/circuit training. However, there has been one thing that has stuck with me for the year; I don't use weights.

I don't use weights because I believe that parkour training should just be about you and the inanimate environment around you. No specialist equipment should be needed, for then you are completely free to train anywehre, at any time.

So I'm asking if there is any way to effectively train the legs safely for the stresses parkour brings, without the need of specialist equipment such as weights? I currently have two specific goals for the lower body, and some others that cannot be explained without photographs (I'm unsure of how to upload them and currently cannot get to the areas in question)

--Increase precision distance by 6"; there is a precision jump that has haunted me ever since I've wanted to be able to do it, and I'm around half a foot off of being able to land it (I have tried on the ground for my maximum)
--Gradually increase my box jump, running broad jump and running vertical jump, so that I can overcome some of the obstacles I have encountered.
--Run the 100m in under 10.5 seconds; my current time is 10.71 seconds, and I've been training sprints for around 4 years. I wish to increase my speed so that I can move more quickly throughout the environment. After all, isn't running the most common movement found when practicing parkour?

I'd be glad for any suggestions, but I'm looking for a way to train safely and sustainably, so that I don't end up with arthritis, among other injuries, in the future. So please don't tell me to jump off of high things

[Andy Animus Tran]

If you've trained Methode Naturelle before, then you lifted weights.  End of story.  People need to stop citing MN when they don't know what it is.  Not to be rude.

And whiel I agree with you as far as what Parkour is, the preparation for Parkour may need some assistance from time to time.  Can you be safe just practicing Parkour without external training and weight-training?  Well, yes, but it also requires that you only be a casual practitioner with no real goals for progression.

If you want to do this MN-style where you're lifting and throwing large stones and logs, go nuts.  Just make sure you know proper form (throwing a heavy stone using hip extension can get tricky if you've never power cleaned, snatched, or done a dynamic deadlift before).  It's a little bit harder to measure progress, but meh, at least you're doing something.

What I'm curious about is why you would deliberately try to avoid the one thing that close to guarantees your joint integrity and will skyrocket your performance levels...?  Parkour is like any other sport... Strength and conditioning training as a supplement is requisite.

[Ryan Gilchrist]

I know what MN is; about the ten different skills the human should aim to improve in to become an all around athlete and such, but I stayed away from lifting, carrying and throwing because of my initial belief; it should just be you and the inanimate environment. However, rocks, logs etc. aren't exactly specialist equipment; you can find them anywhere, so I guess I could start incorporating those three skills into some of my workouts.

If I were to start training the "Weighted" Natural Method skills, I wouldn't worry about measuring my progress, as carrying and lifting X amount of weight would not be one of my goals. Also, what lower body exercises would you recommend if I did start, because as I outlined in my initial post, I'm having trouble finding ways to train my legs.

Finally, about the joint integrity thing; I can see the benefits to things such as weighted squats, but surely there has to be a bodyweight equivilant? Also, with my conditioning, although I've constantly changed what I do, I focused on slow progression, so that my tendons, bones and ligaments would catch up with my muscular development. If I continued to progress slowly, surely my joitn integrety would improve just as much as if I were to start weight training?

[Grayson]

Pick up Starting Strength by Mark Ripptoe and you'll understand why bodyweight conditioning isn't as effective as weight training.

[Jon Hurst]

http://www.beastskills.com

-Pistols are awesome. Do pistols. If you don't have the leg strength for pistols yet, stand on the top of a ledge/wall/box and do negatives as slow as you can until pistols are possible.
-Explosive movements are helpful (like the precisions you're already doing). Work on vertical jumps. Get to the point where you can do back flips and do back flips like mad.

[Ryan Gilchrist]

Pick up Starting Strength by Mark Ripptoe and you'll understand why bodyweight conditioning isn't as effective as weight training.

I'll take a look, thanks

http://www.beastskills.com

-Pistols are awesome. Do pistols. If you don't have the leg strength for pistols yet, stand on the top of a ledge/wall/box and do negatives as slow as you can until pistols are possible.
-Explosive movements are helpful (like the precisions you're already doing). Work on vertical jumps. Get to the point where you can do back flips and do back flips like mad.

I can currently do 8 pistols in a row on either leg, so the negatives aren't neccessary. Thanks for the advice, though

I can understand training vertical jumps and precisions, but why backflips? Sorry if I missed something; I thought the backflip was all about technique and not explosive strength?

[Chris [.5gibbon] Stevenson!]

good luck increasing your broad jump 6 inches without weight training.   unless you are currently doing something terribly technically wrong with your jump its going to be a chore to increase 6 inches especially without weights.  p.s. i don't understand your BW philosophy at all.   "i have all these awesome methods of improvement around me but im not going to use them because..." -you

[Chris Salvato]

You should try starting strength for weights:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976805421?ie=UTF8&tag=eatmovimp-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0976805421

The best way to increase jumping capacity without weight training would be to do technique work and plyometrics.

[Jon Hurst]

I can understand training vertical jumps and precisions, but why backflips? Sorry if I missed something; I thought the backflip was all about technique and not explosive strength?

I'd prefer to defer to someone who knows more than myself, but...
As far as I understand, while backflips are about technique, you need explosive strength for the jump/set/tuck first half. Seems to me like backflips are a more fun, further progression of tuck jumps.

[Ryan Gilchrist]

good luck increasing your broad jump 6 inches without weight training.   unless you are currently doing something terribly technically wrong with your jump its going to be a chore to increase 6 inches especially without weights.  p.s. i don't understand your BW philosophy at all.   "i have all these awesome methods of improvement around me but im not going to use them because..." -you

I can imagine the hard work I'll have to put in to get a further 6", but it's all possible with time; I'm trying to take my training slowly, so as not to avoid injury. I believe it should be taken slowly, especially after reading "Dilution" by Blane.

My philosophy means that once I've found a good way to train the lower body without using weights, I can train anytime, anywhere. It's that freedom of not having to pay for a gym membership, not having to go inside to train, and not having to wait for specific slots available to train in. The only two tools I wish to use to better myself with are my own body and the environment around me; I can understand using the natural method to train with rocks, logs etc. but do not wish to limit myself to specialist equipment, and specific places to train.

I'd prefer to defer to someone who knows more than myself, but...
As far as I understand, while backflips are about technique, you need explosive strength for the jump/set/tuck first half. Seems to me like backflips are a more fun, further progression of tuck jumps.

Thanks for clearing that up; I'll research it a bit more, but the logic seems correct:)

You should try starting strength for weights:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976805421?ie=UTF8&tag=eatmovimp-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0976805421

The best way to increase jumping capacity without weight training would be to do technique work and plyometrics.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I may just buy that book; even if I don't use the book's recomendations, I can still learn just that bit more about how the body works.

[Shae Perkins]

I don't know what to tell you my friend. I honestly do not care to discuss with you the benefits of weight training, but I am going to tell you it is very hard to over load the muscles of the leg with out additional weight. Pistols will be your best bet, but you're up to 8, so may I suggest pistol box jumps?

I don't use weights because I believe that parkour training should just be about you and the inanimate environment around you. No specialist equipment should be needed, for then you are completely free to train anywehre, at any time.

Weight training can be done anywhere, anytime if you are creative and resourceful. Just a lil' fyi for ya. Rocks? Logs? Small children?

[Grayson]

Even if you mainly weight train, that doesn't mean you can't train anywhere anytime. For instance, I go on 1-2 week long hunting trips, this is a long time to unintentionally be away from the gym and weight training, how do I train while on the trip? I substitute squats for weighted pistols (with rocks, a backpack, etc.), Natural Leg curls for Deadlift, vertical and broad jump for power clean, weighted chins (once again rocks or another natural weight), Weighted dips on the on something angled like this ^ or on a single bar or wall, etc. Just because you weight train doesn't mean you HAVE to have a barbell at your hands, its just more effective that way.

[NOS - from Parkour Mumbai]

Ryan man, you sound EXACTLY like one of my teammates, and I always try to give him the same reasoning the guys above have already given in this thread, only to get the EXACT same responses from him as yours. Just feels like a bit of a deja-vu experience to me.

BTW, apart from the fistful of lower-body bodyweight-only exercises listed above, good luck trying to find more. I've been hunting for some good bodyweight-only lower-body exercises for a long time (to train some of the weaker trainees under me to learn to handle their own bodyweight first before they can move on to lifting additional weight) but could only ever locate weighted alternatives. Your lower extremities are already so strong from carrying around your entire body all day long that it is really difficult to stress them enough to grow larger or stronger from just bodyweight exercises, and there aren't even that many lower-body exercises around. The ones I can think of are non-weighted Squats, Pistols, Lunges, Step-ups, GHRs, Hyperextensions, Good Mornings, Calf Raises. If you look at the poundages of the recommended starting weight for these exercises for a healthy, normal 18 year old male, you will see that doing non-weighted versions of these exercises is pathetic, and only for the really frail.

[Chris [.5gibbon] Stevenson!]

"I can imagine the hard work I'll have to put in to get a further 6", but it's all possible with time; I'm trying to take my training slowly, so as not to avoid injury. I believe it should be taken slowly, especially after reading "Dilution" by Blane."
you are much more likely to gain injuries with the approach you are talking about.  your talking about doing exercises that do basically nothing for strength and mixing in plyometrics on top of a poor base.  not only are you probably not going to get that extra 6", but you will more than likely end up with some form of tendonitis. i did exactly what you are talking about for lower body and i ended up with ITBS. now im weight training and its getting better and my vertical is improving.      although i have to admit pistols, single leg glute bridges and single leg hip thrusts are pretty good body weight exercises but better with weight     

[Ryan Gilchrist]

I don't know what to tell you my friend. I honestly do not care to discuss with you the benefits of weight training, but I am going to tell you it is very hard to over load the muscles of the leg with out additional weight. Pistols will be your best bet, but you're up to 8, so may I suggest pistol box jumps?

Weight training can be done anywhere, anytime if you are creative and resourceful. Just a lil' fyi for ya. Rocks? Logs? Small children?

Hmm.. I don't know about the small children part but rocks and logs would seem a good idea, especially after reading the advice other people have posted in the entirety of this thread I'm beginning to think that weighted training may do me quite a bit of good, and if like you said I become "creative and resourceful" in finding things, I could start. It's just the idea of using barbells or other specialist equipment that I don't like, but using items found in the environment seems cool to me.

Even if you mainly weight train, that doesn't mean you can't train anywhere anytime. For instance, I go on 1-2 week long hunting trips, this is a long time to unintentionally be away from the gym and weight training, how do I train while on the trip? I substitute squats for weighted pistols (with rocks, a backpack, etc.), Natural Leg curls for Deadlift, vertical and broad jump for power clean, weighted chins (once again rocks or another natural weight), Weighted dips on the on something angled like this ^ or on a single bar or wall, etc. Just because you weight train doesn't mean you HAVE to have a barbell at your hands, its just more effective that way.

Fair enough; like Shae said, being creative with the environment is key to being able to train anywhere with additional weight.

Ryan man, you sound EXACTLY like one of my teammates, and I always try to give him the same reasoning the guys above have already given in this thread, only to get the EXACT same responses from him as yours. Just feels like a bit of a deja-vu experience to me.

BTW, apart from the fistful of lower-body bodyweight-only exercises listed above, good luck trying to find more. I've been hunting for some good bodyweight-only lower-body exercises for a long time (to train some of the weaker trainees under me to learn to handle their own bodyweight first before they can move on to lifting additional weight) but could only ever locate weighted alternatives. Your lower extremities are already so strong from carrying around your entire body all day long that it is really difficult to stress them enough to grow larger or stronger from just bodyweight exercises, and there aren't even that many lower-body exercises around. The ones I can think of are non-weighted Squats, Pistols, Lunges, Step-ups, GHRs, Hyperextensions, Good Mornings, Calf Raises. If you look at the poundages of the recommended starting weight for these exercises for a healthy, normal 18 year old male, you will see that doing non-weighted versions of these exercises is pathetic, and only for the really frail.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure I'm not the same guy, because I'm currently living in the UK for a while

Secondly, I definately see your point about the lower extremity strength thing; about us moving around all the time so that our bodies know how to handle the bodyweight already.

"I can imagine the hard work I'll have to put in to get a further 6", but it's all possible with time; I'm trying to take my training slowly, so as not to avoid injury. I believe it should be taken slowly, especially after reading "Dilution" by Blane."
you are much more likely to gain injuries with the approach you are talking about.  your talking about doing exercises that do basically nothing for strength and mixing in plyometrics on top of a poor base.  not only are you probably not going to get that extra 6", but you will more than likely end up with some form of tendonitis. i did exactly what you are talking about for lower body and i ended up with ITBS. now im weight training and its getting better and my vertical is improving.      although i have to admit pistols, single leg glute bridges and single leg hip thrusts are pretty good body weight exercises but better with weight     

Hmm, I didn't think I would get any injuries by taking it slowly, but from your experience it seems like there's quite a high chance. Using additional weight is looking a lot more essential for preparing the body for parkour. Thanks for the bodyweight suggestions, btw

I think after reading everyone's advice, I'm going to start using weights found in the natural environment. However I don't want to limit myself to a gym

I'm re-evaluating my system of training now; I'm going to add in some weighted sessions for the next six weeks to see the benefits (Apparently six weeks is the minimum time required to see solid strength gains or something) Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to start training with weights; I know the techniques, because I've researched it today, before trying it out and tweaking it.

By the way, does anyone else find it extremely annoying whilst writing long posts? My screen seems to get to a certain number of lines before not letting me see the rest of what I'm writing without shooting back up afterwards. It's hard to describe, but if anyone else has problems with posts, they'll know what I'm on about

[Hopefulpilot]

By the way, does anyone else find it extremely annoying whilst writing long posts? My screen seems to get to a certain number of lines before not letting me see the rest of what I'm writing without shooting back up afterwards. It's hard to describe, but if anyone else has problems with posts, they'll know what I'm on about

Off the topic, but yes, I have that trouble all the time with my training journal. It's extremely annoying, and I haven't posted in my journal lately, partly because I'm lazy  and partly because I don't feel like dealing with what you mentioned (which is also because I'm lazy atm  ).

[NOS - from Parkour Mumbai]

Firstly, I'm pretty sure I'm not the same guy, because I'm currently living in the UK for a while

I didn't say you were, just that you sounded like him. The dude's one of my closest pals so I would know if it were him. Ironically he doesn't even have access to a computer or the internet at the moment, and he hates posting in forums anyway.

By the way, does anyone else find it extremely annoying whilst writing long posts? My screen seems to get to a certain number of lines before not letting me see the rest of what I'm writing without shooting back up afterwards. It's hard to describe, but if anyone else has problems with posts, they'll know what I'm on about

Yup, I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it was a problem with smf as well, I only ever faced that problem myself with gmail and phpBB. Or maybe it's browser related. Are you using IE7 as well?

[Chris Salvato]

A gym is much less limiting than nature, imho.  THink about it - there are thousands of pounds in weight in a gym and you can mix and match weights to be any amount from an additional 1lb to an additional 1000.  IN nature you only find things with a set weight that is not scalable and only goes so high, practically.

[Ryan Gilchrist]

I didn't say you were, just that you sounded like him. The dude's one of my closest pals so I would know if it were him. Ironically he doesn't even have access to a computer or the internet at the moment, and he hates posting in forums anyway.
Yup, I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it was a problem with smf as well, I only ever faced that problem myself with gmail and phpBB. Or maybe it's browser related. Are you using IE7 as well?

Kk got it

And with the posting problem thing; I'm using internet explorer, but I don't know which version; the latest one if that helps, because my computer updated a couple of weeks ago

A gym is much less limiting than nature, imho.  THink about it - there are thousands of pounds in weight in a gym and you can mix and match weights to be any amount from an additional 1lb to an additional 1000.  IN nature you only find things with a set weight that is not scalable and only goes so high, practically.

I can see your point, but I have to disagree

Training vaults inside a gym is less limiting than outside in the environment. You can adjust the height of an obstacle, and if you fail, everything around you is soft, so you won't get hurt. However, I would personally direct my efforts towards overcoming a real-world obstacle outside in my environment. Why? Because that is why I train. I may have increased my capacity to overcome a certain height/length of obstacle, but if that exact obstacle does not exist in the environment, the place I wish to train and move freely in, then what is the use of overcoming it in the first place?

I see conditioning, in this case weight training, to be the same thing. X weight squatted Y amount of times will aid muscular develpment, yes, but surely squatting with a very heavy rock in your hand will be more beneficial? Not only will I be benefitting the same muscle groups in the same way, I will be increasing my capacity to hold irregular objects, as well as lifting them up in the first place. If I get to the point where I can't find anything heavy enough, I will switch to a lighter object and start pistol squatting. Realistically, pistol squatting with the heaviest object you can find in your environment would most likely be quite challenging.

I know going to a gym is easier than going out to find a specific object in the environment, just like training vaults in the gym is easier than finding an obstacle in the real world. But I like challenges, and would rather overcome the obstacle of being able to find the correct items to train with, along with increasing my muscular strength, rather than overcoming the obstacle of simply being able to lift a bar that is X lb heavy.

Do I need to mention the other benefits of training outside in comparison to in a gym? 

[Chris Salvato]

Training vaults inside a gym is less limiting than outside in the environment. You can adjust the height of an obstacle, and if you fail, everything around you is soft, so you won't get hurt. However, I would personally direct my efforts towards overcoming a real-world obstacle outside in my environment. Why? Because that is why I train. I may have increased my capacity to overcome a certain height/length of obstacle, but if that exact obstacle does not exist in the environment, the place I wish to train and move freely in, then what is the use of overcoming it in the first place?

This is entirely different than S&C with weight training...

I see conditioning, in this case weight training, to be the same thing. X weight squatted Y amount of times will aid muscular develpment, yes, but surely squatting with a very heavy rock in your hand will be more beneficial? Not only will I be benefitting the same muscle groups in the same way, I will be increasing my capacity to hold irregular objects, as well as lifting them up in the first place. If I get to the point where I can't find anything heavy enough, I will switch to a lighter object and start pistol squatting. Realistically, pistol squatting with the heaviest object you can find in your environment would most likely be quite challenging.

You do not understand the basic concepts of S&C training so your analogy is actually nonsensical (not to be a dick).  You will not be benefitting the same muscle groups in the same way - not by a long shot.

Pistol squatting with heavy weights is quite challenging...I can do a pistol with nearly 60# held overhead -- either in the form of a kettlebell, rock, barbell or log or whatever you want.  Without scability, working up to that level is difficult - but I will let you find that out on your own.

If you are really interested in finding out why you are wrong, then you should really buy starting strength because i prefer not to rewrite one of the many books I have read when you can just buy them on your own

Do I need to mention the other benefits of training outside in comparison to in a gym? 

I personally think you need to learn more about what you are arguing so vehemently against before you start preaching to me