Topic: P90x vs. Alternatives.

[Jordan Davis]

So how does the famous p90x workout compare to the crossfit wod. Or apk wod?
Any other titled  workout regiments that are much harder than p90x. I've heard it's a beginner workout..

[Chris Salvato]

WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS.

[Spencer B]

WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS.

I lol'd.

God I love ya' Chris, maybe we should find a way to make stickies mandatory reads.

[Jordan Davis]

Oh. This is just out of curiosity.  I have my own devised workout for my goals. And have read the sticky. I'm just curious how p90x stacks up to crossfit and others just for general fitness and strength, relatig to parkour.

[Phil Howe]

I think that's what Chris meant, the effectiveness of P90x is dependent on your goals.  Depending on what you are trying to accomplish will determine if P90x is a good choice.

[Rafe]

Crossfit is great if you want to lose fat while getting rhabdo in your arms and stomach, tearing up your shoulders and have constantly torn hands and being unable to progress at any real sport. Not as familar with p90x but I think its even less developmental of strength and just as slapdash and ill thought out. The APK Wod is a more BW oriented version of Crossfit less injurious but in my opinion not more effective.
For a novice, the best thing in the world is linear strength training and regular skill practice if you need to lose fat or gain endurance, some simple High intensity training is sufficient, bodyweight circuits or sprinting intervals will provide sufficient metabolic stimulus the rest is diet.

[Andy Animus Tran]

Crossfit is great if you want to lose fat while getting rhabdo in your arms and stomach, tearing up your shoulders and have constantly torn hands and being unable to progress at any real sport. Not as familar with p90x but I think its even less developmental of strength and just as slapdash and ill thought out. The APK Wod is a more BW oriented version of Crossfit less injurious but in my opinion not more effective.
For a novice, the best thing in the world is linear strength training and regular skill practice if you need to lose fat or gain endurance, some simple High intensity training is sufficient, bodyweight circuits or sprinting intervals will provide sufficient metabolic stimulus the rest is diet.

I lol'd so hard...

[David Glass]

Crossfit is great if you want to lose fat while getting rhabdo in your arms and stomach, tearing up your shoulders and have constantly torn hands and being unable to progress at any real sport. Not as familar with p90x but I think its even less developmental of strength and just as slapdash and ill thought out. The APK Wod is a more BW oriented version of Crossfit less injurious but in my opinion not more effective.
For a novice, the best thing in the world is linear strength training and regular skill practice if you need to lose fat or gain endurance, some simple High intensity training is sufficient, bodyweight circuits or sprinting intervals will provide sufficient metabolic stimulus the rest is diet.

That's news to me. I've been training CrossFit for 2 years and never suffered any of the aforementioned.

Here's an excellent read about the topic from analysts who do both and actually know what they're talking about

http://www.catalystgym.com/2009/02/crossfit-vs-p90x.html

[Chris [.5gibbon] Stevenson!]

a friend of a friend of mine is a major crossfit head with certifications out the butt and i believe he is in the process of opening a gym where i do mma. if he does i will be joining.  i don't think its as bad as rafe makes it sound as long as your diet is right and your getting enough rest.  if i had to choose between the two i would go with crossfit.

[David Glass]

a friend of a friend of mine is a major crossfit head with certifications out the butt and i believe he is in the process of opening a gym where i do mma. if he does i will be joining.  i don't think its as bad as rafe makes it sound as long as your diet is right and your getting enough rest.  if i had to choose between the two i would go with crossfit.

It's as bad as you make it. A big thing with CrossFit, at least for me, is that you push yourself mentally beyond the pain and oxygen depravation. Some people push themselves too hard trying to beat the clock (time is a huge factor in about 90% of the workouts), so if you know your record is 20 rounds of Cindy, you're going to want to push harder this time to do 21, and next time 22, so on and so forth. This can lead to injury, but, if you don't run into that brick wall, you're never really training to your maximum potential, and this is true for CrossFit or any other training regime

Personally, I regard p90x and Insanity as CrossFit spin-offs, with more successful marketting campaigns. p90x is a bit less strength oriented (you won't be slamming 135# barbells in front of your DVD player), but has a little bit of fighting and yoga. The degree with which you'll be challenging yourself won't be as intense as with crossfit... also, you won't have a trainer (something I think all CrossFit amateurs must have)

Don't think CrossFit is an original concept either. Russian olympic athletes have been training using the CrossFit methodology (not called crossfit), for ages, and their athletes only train their specific abilities in the months leading to competition.

I'll write some more abut this but right now my son insists that I play with his train with him

[Rafe]

Assumptions, Assumptions David. I one up your having done crossfit for 2 years with having coached crossfit for 2 years much to my chagrin I managed to give myself rhabdo twice from fram, saw three trainees develop rhabdo from glute ham sit ups, had one friend dislocate his shoulder three times, saw more knee problems then I care to relate, all while the majority of athlets failed to really progress on the program, I left crossfit behind because all my attempts to develop prehab routines for people with shoulder problems or medial collapsing knees or to encourage people to follow regular progressive strength training was stone walled. That just one affliate of course and in my opinion a particular bad one, and I will freely admit there some really good affliates out there. Mainsite crosssfit is terrible though Go check out the injuries forum on Crossfit.com take a peak at it next time Glute Ham raise sit ups come up in the WOD, look up rhabdo and jumping pull ups. Try to justify wods like the TGU for time WOD? Show me one athlete who has developed 500-750 deadlift doing straight main site crossfit. The claims of crossfit are trumped up if not straight false and the fact is you just don't train real athletes like that. Its stupid.

I will be writing a little article on why crossfit is not appropriate for traceurs soon for now that will have to suffice.

[David Glass]

Assumptions, Assumptions David. I one up your having done crossfit for 2 years with having coached crossfit for 2 years much to my chagrin. For your information the site you link to was just deaffliated by crossfit for failing to toe the party line in doing things like actually programming intelligent progressive strength and insisting on good form CA = good stuff. Go check out the injuries forum on Crossfit.com take a peak at it next time Glute Ham raise sit ups come up in the WOD, look up rhabdo and jumping pull ups, thats all I have to say for the moment.

I will be writing a little article on why crossfit is not appropriate for traceurs soon.

Yeah, there's a lot of drama with CF HQ recently, knowledgable people falling out of grace, like Rob Wolf, Rippetoe, etc... I disassociate HQ with the nature of the workout itself. They (HQ) define CF as addressing all 10 aspects of fitness (also defined by crossfit as being strength, power, balance, precision, endurance, bla bla bla). To me, if you train all these in your WOD, you're doing CrossFit, regardless of what HQ says...

As for the assumption, well, read your comment and tell me that sounds like a person who's been a trainer for two yearsI doubt during your 2 years of training many of your athletes came up with rhabdo or were constantly getting injured. If they did, you would have given up on the training a long time ago, and, well, there would be something to be said about quality as a trainer. I do agree on the TOm hands part of your comment LOL, my callouses do tend to drive me nuts

Another point about the injuries forum... we have one too 

Over the years, I have found you have to be careful about comments you make over these forums... less knowledgeable people will go out and repeat them... CrossFit = Rhabdo, you don't want to be doing that! It's just a training methodology, like many others... you overdo it, do it wrong, or poorly, and like many other methodologies, you will get injured

[David Glass]

Assumptions, Assumptions David. I one up your having done crossfit for 2 years with having coached crossfit for 2 years much to my chagrin I managed to give myself rhabdo twice from fram, saw three trainees develop rhabdo from glute ham sit ups, had one friend dislocate his shoulder three times, saw more knee problems then I care to relate, all while the majority of athlets failed to really progress on the program, I left crossfit behind because all my attempts to develop prehab routines for people with shoulder problems or medial collapsing knees or to encourage people to follow regular progressive strength training was stone walled. That just one affliate of course and in my opinion a particular bad one, and I will freely admit there some really good affliates out there. Mainsite crosssfit is terrible though Go check out the injuries forum on Crossfit.com take a peak at it next time Glute Ham raise sit ups come up in the WOD, look up rhabdo and jumping pull ups. Try to justify wods like the TGU for time WOD? Show me one athlete who has developed 500-750 deadlift doing straight main site crossfit. The claims of crossfit are trumped up if not straight false and the fact is you just don't train real athletes like that. Its stupid.

I will be writing a little article on why crossfit is not appropriate for traceurs soon for now that will have to suffice.

OK, that's a much better reply.

I seldomly follow the WODs on the main site. Lately they seem to be deviating from their own phylosophy, and the glute, haim raise is a good example of that.

Never did jumping pull-ups, because, like you said, no justification for them. If you look at my training journal, you'll see I put together WODS of my own, but they're still CrossFit... lately I've been doing SealFit type WODs (another CrossFit spin-off). I guess  I do CrossFit the way most do P90X (Yoga??? Screw that, I'm doing the pull-ups workout today)

The results I've seen in my PK due to my CrossFit training often come to me by surprise... like miscalculating a landing in the middle of the night because you couldn't judge distance correctly... You pick yourself up and thank god for all the conditioning you've done because you know how bad it would have been otherwise

Never mind the vaulting of higher obstacles, and one thing a lot of people here overlook... some people are good for a vault or two, but no conditioning, when actually being chased, or chasing someone, that isn't going to do you much good if you're gasping for breath. Lack of power, speed, endurance and strength, and all the agility in the world won't do you much good.

I am very curious as to what methodology you have been following as an alternative and what benefits/gains you've seen. I do agree with you on the deadlift (as I have experienced this myself)... here's something I've been tempted to experiment with

http://www.staleytraining.com/articles/charles-staley/2009/moving-force-time-curve.htm

This is where those drinking the CrossFit kool aid would have a field day with me LOL

[Andrew Stockton]

Yeah, there's a lot of drama with CF HQ recently, knowledgable people falling out of grace, like Rob Wolf, Rippetoe, etc... I disassociate HQ with the nature of the workout itself.

question. I just got Starting Strength, obviously by Rippetoe. Is that still alright? I was planning on following his advice pretty closely...

[David Glass]

question. I just got Starting Strength, obviously by Rippetoe. Is that still alright? I was planning on following his advice pretty closely...

It's perfect, if your goal is to get stronger. IMO, hands down the best methodology

[KC Parsons]

Metabolic conditioning seems (to me, I could be very wrong here) like one of the most ignored components in a lot of traceurs' training programs. We tend to favor skill work and plyometrics highly (naturally ) and even focus a lot of muscular endurance, maybe some cardiovascular endurance, and strength/power.
The culmination of both muscular and CV endurance with a fair str/pwr component is what makes metcon metcon. If your max amount of pushups is 30, doing 25-30 pushups is going to be HARD and probably hurt a lot (uncomfortability, not actual pain).
But switching from doing 15-20 pushups for time, grabbing a dumbell and doing pistols for time, then grabbing a bar and pressing it over your head for time all without stopping in between is REALLY DAMN HARD, but also quite useful to achieve functional movement endurance [of course assuming your'e doing functional movements], with potential for strength gains and power translation.

I personally favor power/oly lifting based metcons, perhaps with some skill-specific movments in there, usually against the clock. But, like ANY program, focus MUST be on form first, output second. And I think it goes without saying that you can overtrain on ANY program, due to poor intake and not really giving yourself true rest.

I could get rhabdomyolysis from crossfit, a broken ankle from parkour, a torn disc from mma, ITband syndrome from lifting, or shin splints from running.
At the same time, I could get none of the above from any of the above.

All in all the fundamentals of a long-lasting effective program will stay the same. Form, recovery, progressive overload. The specifics of the program are what bring about the change you want.
Hopefully, and is oftentimes not the case, the program an individual chooses is accurate to the results they want to realize.

Finally, as a note to the readers as well as the contributors, I'm limitlessly glad we have the community we have here. The huge base of knowledge, the mature discussion, and willingness to assimilate or even accomodate. You guys truly are awesome. :]
 



ps: Yes, Andrew. You made a GREAT choice. Read, digest, and utilize all of the information in that wonderful little book.

[David Glass]

Metabolic conditioning seems (to me, I could be very wrong here) like one of the most ignored components in a lot of traceurs' training programs. We tend to favor skill work and plyometrics highly (naturally ) and even focus a lot of muscular endurance, maybe some cardiovascular endurance, and strength/power.
The culmination of both muscular and CV endurance with a fair str/pwr component is what makes metcon metcon. If your max amount of pushups is 30, doing 25-30 pushups is going to be HARD and probably hurt a lot (uncomfortability, not actual pain).
But switching from doing 15-20 pushups for time, grabbing a dumbell and doing pistols for time, then grabbing a bar and pressing it over your head for time all without stopping in between is REALLY DAMN HARD, but also quite useful to achieve functional movement endurance [of course assuming your'e doing functional movements], with potential for strength gains and power translation.

I personally favor power/oly lifting based metcons, perhaps with some skill-specific movments in there, usually against the clock. But, like ANY program, focus MUST be on form first, output second. And I think it goes without saying that you can overtrain on ANY program, due to poor intake and not really giving yourself true rest.

I could get rhabdomyolysis from crossfit, a broken ankle from parkour, a torn disc from mma, ITband syndrome from lifting, or shin splints from running.
At the same time, I could get none of the above from any of the above.

All in all the fundamentals of a long-lasting effective program will stay the same. Form, recovery, progressive overload. The specifics of the program are what bring about the change you want.
Hopefully, and is oftentimes not the case, the program an individual chooses is accurate to the results they want to realize.

Finally, as a note to the readers as well as the contributors, I'm limitlessly glad we have the community we have here. The huge base of knowledge, the mature discussion, and willingness to assimilate or even accomodate. You guys truly are awesome. :]
 



ps: Yes, Andrew. You made a GREAT choice. Read, digest, and utilize all of the information in that wonderful little book.

EXTREMELY well put! Bravo!

[Andy Animus Tran]

the difference is that rhabdo is life-threatening.  ITBS, joint issues, broken bones.. muscle tears, etc. suck, but the likelihood of death is a bit smaller.  I think the worst thing about CF is that the culture of it celebrates things like rhabdo.  They print it on a friggin t-shirt with a cartoon.

Can CF be done safely?  Yes, of course.  But that'd require a much stricter certification process.  Of all the CF coaches out there, I would say maybe half of them are actually educated enough to instruct proper form across the baord of what they instruct, can prescribe prehabilitative, rehab, and post-rehab corrective protocols, etc.  And even then.. it's risky.

Honestly, I think the thing that's missing the most from Parkour trainees is strength work, not metcon, not endurance, not anything else.  I think CF has its benefits, but its use should be sparing.

[Chris Salvato]

the difference is that rhabdo is life-threatening.  ITBS, joint issues, broken bones.. muscle tears, etc. suck, but the likelihood of death is a bit smaller.  I think the worst thing about CF is that the culture of it celebrates things like rhabdo.  They print it on a friggin t-shirt with a cartoon.

Can CF be done safely?  Yes, of course.  But that'd require a much stricter certification process.  Of all the CF coaches out there, I would say maybe half of them are actually educated enough to instruct proper form across the baord of what they instruct, can prescribe prehabilitative, rehab, and post-rehab corrective protocols, etc.  And even then.. it's risky.

Honestly, I think the thing that's missing the most from Parkour trainees is strength work, not metcon, not endurance, not anything else.  I think CF has its benefits, but its use should be sparing.

I agree with all but one point.

Probably <5% of CF Instructors are actually worthwhile these days.

Like anything else, CF is good if it helps you hit your goals.  If its not doing that, then you need to move on.  Rhabdo gets between you and your goals.

[David Glass]

the difference is that rhabdo is life-threatening.  ITBS, joint issues, broken bones.. muscle tears, etc. suck, but the likelihood of death is a bit smaller.  I think the worst thing about CF is that the culture of it celebrates things like rhabdo.  They print it on a friggin t-shirt with a cartoon.

Can CF be done safely?  Yes, of course.  But that'd require a much stricter certification process.  Of all the CF coaches out there, I would say maybe half of them are actually educated enough to instruct proper form across the baord of what they instruct, can prescribe prehabilitative, rehab, and post-rehab corrective protocols, etc.  And even then.. it's risky.

Honestly, I think the thing that's missing the most from Parkour trainees is strength work, not metcon, not endurance, not anything else.  I think CF has its benefits, but its use should be sparing.

Andy,

I was just talking about that today. Anyone with a Level 1 CrossFit cert these days is, well, just that... anyone... well, in this case, anyone willing to pay $1K and sit through a weekend of instruction.

I actually knew someone who came and trained with out group for a few months, never took the time to learn a proper air squat or any of the lifts, completely rounds the shoulders and back while doing a deadlift, went in, got certified, got affiliated, and now has a gym

That doesn't mean there aren't fantastic instructors, just the bad ones aren't filtered out... The thought that comes to mind is, if you are just a trainer, you can leverage all the CrossFit marketting by getting certified and saying you do CrossFit... the sad thing is that the good trainers actually pay the price for this

About the rhabdo, well, you can get that with P90X and Insanity too. It's not exclusively a CrossFit issue. If you can find a great trainer, like I had the fortune to, CrossFit can be a pretty awesome training methodology, but, like Chris said, provided it helps you reach your goals, and if there's a methodology that can get you there quicker, go for that one ;-)

I've been looking into periodization. My current problem is, I think I'm addiction to the "Get your ass kicked" feeling of the CrossFit WODs... I leave my SS routines thinking I really didn't do much of anything