Author Topic: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes  (Read 4665 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« on: December 08, 2009, 09:51:56 PM »
I normally don't do this kind of thing here but Ryan Ford, Myself (Chris Salvato), Steven Low, Matt Marshall and some other folks from the PK gym in CO have put together a set of athletic skill standards for parkour. We are hoping that these standards really step up people's game for PK and bring it to the next level.

For a brief intro into the standards and the article, check out Ryan's video on YouTube.

The full text of the article can be viewed here on the Eat. Move. Improve. site (where you should put any comments you have!) or downloaded as a PDF for your convenience here.

Thanks again for being such an awesome community! I can't wait to hear your input regarding these standards!
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Offline Chris Kessler

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 11:02:29 PM »
I love this article. Never before have I seen such a comprehensive collection of realistic goals, albeit very difficult at some points.

I would categorize myself in level 2. While I can do most of the level 2 goals, I can not do all of them, yet I can also do a few of the level 3 goals.

Here is my question: Could this in any way ever develop into American Parkour's basis for certification of teaching? I say develop because it of course says nothing about having knowledge of basic human anatomy, nor some of the more basic principles of parkour.

But, could this be considered a starting point?

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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 11:21:11 PM »
I don't think that's a bad standard at all, actually.  I think there may be some problems inherent to standardizing athletic performance in that manner, but given that it's really just a measure, I don't see much harm unless people try to extrapolate things from it that aren't written.

I think the jumping standards might be a little off, though.  Shouldn't a person's height affect things?  I also don't think the distances are far enough for broad jump.  For instance, I'm 5'6" and my legs are extremely short.  My max broad jump, measured, has been 9'11" and I average around 9'8".  This would put me close to a level 4.  Leon, on the other hand, can jump MASSIVELY farther than me.  As well as a great deal of other traceurs that I've met over the years.  So I would imagine that a 10' broad jump should be in the level 3 area.

Also, box jumps I think are a little low, as well.  My max box jump so far has been 49.5" and I imagine that many traceurs are capable of much higher.  The member Stephen (Brute Force) in Toronto has a 58" box jump last time I remember them testing him.. and he's a genetic freak, for sure, but I'm always inclined to believe that a great deal of traceurs are capable of jumping much higher/further than I am.. so  if the majority of traceurs in the level 5 range, then this scale, at this in the jumps, might be a little too forgiving... Or we're just full of genetic freaks.

Lastly, the max vault exit distance should account for how many steps are taken in the entrance to the vault.  Standing versus two steps versus a ten step sprint makes a huge difference.

Those are my two cents to help polish this a bit better.  I may look over it again when I'm less tired.  Great work, guys.
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
Lead Parkour Instructor
Urban Evolution
Parkour Virginia

Offline Chris Kessler

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 11:30:27 PM »
To add onto Animus' thoughts on the vault exit, I think the type of vault needs to be taken into consideration. A kong vault vs. a lazy vault for max distance attained are almost incomparable.
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 11:31:43 PM »
I'll say here what I said to Chris and Ryan both. I think its really nice list intelligently put together and I applaud all efforts to get more good strength training  There is to much stuff here the most important thing for Beginnners is Keep it simple stupid you can get 80 percent of the benefits of strength training form 4 excercises squat deadlift, Press and Pull up, substitute dip or bench for Press and it really makes no major difference. Train these 4 exercises progressively and intelligently allong with well planned parkour practice incorporating skill development, speed, and stamina training and you will get vast majority of possible athletic developments.

The key point here is that traceurs need to freaking weight train, you can work around it with a bunch of BW excercises but its far harder to program and less efficient anyways.

If your not squatting and deadlifting, you shouldn't do parkour its that simple.

The other problem is that having a list of goals is all well and good but intelligently programming how to get there is the real question and resources for how to get their should really be emphasised. Every traceur should do themselves  a favor and walk out and Pick up Starting strength and Practical programing for strength training right now. I would love to see some really intelligent approachs laid out for programming BW strength development from Steve and Chris but I believe no matter how smart you program it Barbell training is allways going to be the most effective strength building method.

Finally I think Parkour skills standards should be Separate from strength skill standards.




« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 11:37:52 PM by Rafe »
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Offline NateVD

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 11:44:56 PM »
This is absolutely amazing!

Props for taking the time and effort to create something like this.

I'm all over the place in terms of levels. 

I'm gonna do a week or two worth of testing and see how I fair..


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Offline Ryan Ford

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 12:10:25 AM »
I don't think that's a bad standard at all, actually.  I think there may be some problems inherent to standardizing athletic performance in that manner, but given that it's really just a measure, I don't see much harm unless people try to extrapolate things from it that aren't written.

I think the jumping standards might be a little off, though.  Shouldn't a person's height affect things?  I also don't think the distances are far enough for broad jump.  For instance, I'm 5'6" and my legs are extremely short.  My max broad jump, measured, has been 9'11" and I average around 9'8".  This would put me close to a level 4.  Leon, on the other hand, can jump MASSIVELY farther than me.  As well as a great deal of other traceurs that I've met over the years.  So I would imagine that a 10' broad jump should be in the level 3 area.

Also, box jumps I think are a little low, as well.  My max box jump so far has been 49.5" and I imagine that many traceurs are capable of much higher.  The member Stephen (Brute Force) in Toronto has a 58" box jump last time I remember them testing him.. and he's a genetic freak, for sure, but I'm always inclined to believe that a great deal of traceurs are capable of jumping much higher/further than I am.. so  if the majority of traceurs in the level 5 range, then this scale, at this in the jumps, might be a little too forgiving... Or we're just full of genetic freaks.

Lastly, the max vault exit distance should account for how many steps are taken in the entrance to the vault.  Standing versus two steps versus a ten step sprint makes a huge difference.

Those are my two cents to help polish this a bit better.  I may look over it again when I'm less tired.  Great work, guys.

Thanks for the comments Animus. I have 3.5 years experience testing the broad jump of 500+ athletes in my parkour classes. In that time span, I have seen probably only 20-30 athletes jump farther than 9 feet and only 10 or so jump farther than 9.5 feet. Given those ratios, I am pretty comfortable with where our broad jump numbers are at. 9'11" is an outstanding jump and would put you in a tie for 1st place on our record boards at APEX Movement. With all that said, broad jump is one of the few skills on here that is largely genetic. I've seen some people train their ass of to barely break 9 ft. (myself) and some people who naturally jump 10+ (Leon). One other comparison is the broad jump of NFL prospects at the NFL combine. Last year, only the top performers broke 10 ft. and only 2 people broke 11 ft. Those guys are absolutely elite level, genetic freak, athletes.

As for the box jump, I haven't tested this as thoroughly at our gym, but the record right now stands at about 55" which is considerably higher than most of our "intermediate" level athletes.

Broad jumps, box jumps, and vertical jumps can all be greatly improved by everyone, but some people simply have more potential to work with.

Lastly, our vault exit distance allows for as much of a run up as people want. I have seen our top athletes at the gym hit 10+ ft. with only 15-20 ft. run up. I personally like about 30-40 ft. run up for max effort, but it goes to show that you don't need to run ridiculously far to have a good distance.

To add onto Animus' thoughts on the vault exit, I think the type of vault needs to be taken into consideration. A kong vault vs. a lazy vault for max distance attained are almost incomparable.

You are right, I haven't seen anyone go more than 8 or 9 ft. with a vault besides a kong/monkey. For an intermediate practitioner who has mastered most of their vaults, a kong/monkey will no doubt be the superior vault. However, we designated our test to allow for any type of vault because some people perform better with a speed vault (mainly just newer people who have not yet mastered the technique or upper body strength needed for an explosive, long distance kong). So to sum it up, I don't care what vault is used, but to maximize your potential, at some point, the kong/monkey is the clear and easy choice.

I'll say here what I said to Chris and Ryan both. I think its really nice list intelligently put together and I applaud all efforts to get more good strength training  There is to much stuff here the most important thing for Beginnners is Keep it simple stupid you can get 80 percent of the benefits of strength training form 4 excercises squat deadlift, Press and Pull up, substitute dip or bench for Press and it really makes no major difference. Train these 4 exercises progressively and intelligently allong with well planned parkour practice incorporating skill development, speed, and stamina training and you will get vast majority of possible athletic developments.

The key point here is that traceurs need to freaking weight train, you can work around it with a bunch of BW excercises but its far harder to program and less efficient anyways.

If your not squatting and deadlifting, you shouldn't do parkour its that simple.

The other problem is that having a list of goals is all well and good but intelligently programming how to get there is the real question and resources for how to get their should really be emphasised. Every traceur should do themselves  a favor and walk out and Pick up Starting strength and Practical programing for strength training right now. I would love to see some really intelligent approachs laid out for programming BW strength development from Steve and Chris but I believe no matter how smart you program it Barbell training is allways going to be the most effective strength building method.

Finally I think Parkour skills standards should be Separate from strength skill standards.

While I think your exercise selection may be a bit oversimplified and unrealistic for some people, I completely agree with you that certain exercises on our list should be focused on more than others. If I had to narrow it down to what I thought was necessary for well-rounded fitness in parkour, I would include: 5k run, 100m run, squat, deadlift, press, dip, pull up, muscle up, broad jump, handstand, climb up, wall run, and vault exit.

I also agree that the goals mean little if you don't have good programming to work toward them. That is one of my next big projects to tackle. ;)

Offline Rafe

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 12:27:55 AM »
In Regards to the 5k and 100 I believe that doing fast parkour sprints and intervals will develop these sufficiently. High level performance in 100 meter is dependant on technique that is not neccesary or neccesarily optimal for performance in parkour, the refinement of the start and drive phase are just not that transferable for what we do in my opinion.

High level performance on the 5k is dependant on physilogical adaptions that are contrary to those neccesary for parkour performance. If you do good parkour training and lift you will run a descent 5K if you want to run a reall good 5k you will have to give up performance in allot of other areas.

Personally I see handstands, muscle ups, climb ups, and wall run, and vault distance all falling under the technical or skill domain and not important for or optimal for physiological development. Way to many traceurs for instance try to develop Climb up and Muscle up techniques before their strong enough and develop shoulder and elbow issues as result  they would be better of developing strength through weighted pull ups and taking a skill based not conditioning based approach to the MU and CU. MU's and CU's are great demonstrations of strength I believe their are suboptimal choices for strength development.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 07:58:30 AM »
I understand your point, Rafe.  This set of standards is good to provide ideas of what people should work towards - but not necessarily how they should get there.  WIth just Pressing work, for example, you can likely reach level 3 of the HSPU skill while only doing minor HS work.  With this in mind, these are not progressions to work on but milestones that gauge progression.  However one wants to reach these goals is up to the practitioner -- i can put this a bit more plainly in the intro -- do you think that would be appropriate?
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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 09:18:21 AM »
Rafe, I understand your concerns, but I don't see this article as a means to solidify any type of programming system.  I think that programming is going to be highly individualized, dependent on a person's personal body structure, unique strengths and weaknesses, and personal ability to adapt to a routine.  I think that certain elements of programming, like periodization or exercise progression, is better left to professionals.. and the great thing is that we're really starting to GET professionals in the business here.

What I would love to see one day is the coaches at Parkour Visions, Primal Fitness, APEX Movement, the Monkey Vault, etc. coming together, throwing ideas at one another.. and then saying things like, "Huh.  I never thought of developing power in that way."  So that's one thing I'd rather see NOT standardized.
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Offline Derek Stroup

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 11:15:55 AM »
Thanks for collaborating on a project like this. I wish a list of standards like this had been up when I first started. I mean it took me a whole year of doing parkour to realize that I needed to condition properly to get better. Luckily I had an okay level of strength to begin with and I didn't get horribly injured. This will save a lot of time and hopefully prevent injuries.

Just picked up starting strength, wish I had started weight training a long time ago.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 12:28:11 PM by Derek Stroup »
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Offline Chris [.5gibbon] Stevenson!

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 11:40:04 AM »
this is amazing!
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Offline that ninja chick

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 12:16:11 PM »
This is great! Thanks Chris, I'll def use this :)
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Offline Andrew Stockton

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 12:55:24 PM »
Thanks guys! This looks great, hoping to see expansions and improvements as time goes on.
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Offline Spencer B

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 03:03:20 PM »
I was surprised...

I had no gauge for locomotive stuff, but...

I was falling mostly into threes with some twos and approaching four in some cases on the body weight stuff... Then I got to the weight section, and... Well, I have a long ways to go.

Very informative though, good goals, great skills that require much work. Definitively enjoyed reading it.
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Offline Grayson

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 03:26:08 PM »
The only level 4 i'm on is handstands ^.^ I view this as an accomplishment.
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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 03:44:08 PM »
Almost level 5 for broad jump? I agree with Animus on that one, I'm 5'7 and my max broad jump (measured) was 10'3. Maybe we could extend it a little bit? :P
The rest of the stuff seems quite good, except maybe the handstand presses and handstands. I feel that the level 3 for handstand press was a little easy, but that might just be me (not to sound like a jerk or anything, I just feel that it's something most people could build up to with < 2 years of training or so). My $0.02. :)

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 05:48:20 PM »
You guys who are jumping well past 9 and into 10':

You start with your foot behind the line, and you measure to the BACK of your heel. No inclines, no ledges, no nothing.

I find it hard to believe a lot of people are well past 9' without specific training unless you are a genetic freak like Leon.

I know a lot of traceurs and there's very few who can even get close to 10'.
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Offline WQ F

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 05:59:46 PM »
Thanks! This puts my skill level and goals into perspective. I'll have to reconsider some of my goals.
I'm at around level 3 for running and legs, but level 1 or 2 for most of the other categories.

The measurements for weight training goals seem to be a bit inconsistent. For dips and pullups, it seems like BW simply means without any weights, but for for the lifts, BW means you are lifting that amount of weights without considering your body weight in the equation. Maybe pullups and dips level 5 should be rewritten as 1xBW and level 1 should be rewritten as 0xBW?

Also, based on the world records list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_olympic_weightlifting
Snatch should be about 0.8 times as strong as clean and jerk. Your standards make it seem like one could only snatch 0.5-0.6 times as much as one could clean and jerk.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:03:53 PM by WQ F »
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Offline Mark Lewis

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Re: Skill Standards for Building Strong, Useful, Adaptable Athletes
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 06:29:33 PM »
I'll say here what I said to Chris and Ryan both. I think its really nice list intelligently put together and I applaud all efforts to get more good strength training  There is to much stuff here the most important thing for Beginnners is Keep it simple stupid you can get 80 percent of the benefits of strength training form 4 excercises squat deadlift, Press and Pull up, substitute dip or bench for Press and it really makes no major difference. Train these 4 exercises progressively and intelligently allong with well planned parkour practice incorporating skill development, speed, and stamina training and you will get vast majority of possible athletic developments.

The key point here is that traceurs need to freaking weight train, you can work around it with a bunch of BW excercises but its far harder to program and less efficient anyways.

If your not squatting and deadlifting, you shouldn't do parkour its that simple.

I think maybe this is a bit oversimplified/harsh. I'll grant you that lifting CAN get you farther faster in terms of specific strength, but to say squatting and deadlifting is absolutely necessary to even attempt parkour is a bit much Rafe.

Personally, I have been training for about 10 months and I sit roughly at a 2.5 on average. I began at age 24, 165lbs, about 18% body fat, and pretty much sedentary. This is right in line with the demographic assumptions. I train 3-4 times a week. I train hard and smart and have made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time. I don't lift at all really. I use almost strictly body weight exercises. I am also very confident that I will reach level 4 in most categories without lifting significantly. I may not do it as fast as I could have, but I will do it.

I would like to further add that I believe BW exercises encourage a greater level of proportional total body strength, coordination, and balance on average than standard lifting. I also feel as though it encourages a greater sensitivity to ones inner sensations and a higher level of focus. I will grant, however, that this is from my fairly limited experience. I am not refuting that lifting is an excellent way to train; I just don't believe it is the only way, or even a replacement for BW training.
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