Author Topic: what should I do? help  (Read 1120 times)

Offline Imonfire

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what should I do? help
« on: December 07, 2009, 03:41:18 PM »
I am new to parkour. I already now how to roll and land. But what shold a do next?
I train alone. but thats only cause there is no one to train with. sooooo, anyone?

Offline Jose "ballzy" Baliņo

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 05:59:36 PM »
have you worked out everything:quads,hamstrings,calves,forearms,biceps,triceps,the back muscles,chest,abs,and pretty much every other bone.start conditioning go for a mile run,jog or more than a mile. after youve done everything and feel good just try a lazy vault

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Offline Jeremy Osborn

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 06:15:15 PM »
Jose, what you listed are muscles! And, to be honest, start with a safety or speed vault, they are super simple,  and you can do conditioning along with  vaults
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Offline Jose "ballzy" Baliņo

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
Jose, what you listed are muscles! And, to be honest, start with a safety or speed vault, they are super simple,  and you can do conditioning along with  vaults
true mustve gotten sidetracked by something else :-[
you can also try the apk workout of the day : http://www.americanparkour.com/content/category/12/37/385/

"Because you might as well be dead. Seriously, if you always put limits on what you can do, physical or anything else, it'll spread over into the rest of your life. It'll spread limits into your work, into your morality, int

Offline Rowe

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 11:56:42 AM »
I prefer the exploratory approach. Forget about vaults and tutorials for a while. Find an object - picnic tables and handrails are favorites to start - and play around with ways to move over, under, and through them. Test out different angles, speeds, trajectories, body positions, etc. If a movement comes to mind, work toward finding a way to make it happen. Perhaps it will work and perhaps it won't. By doing this, you'll gain better control of your body in general and a better grasp of physics.

I think that more and more traceurs are developing pk-tunnel vision. They concentrate so heavily on learning specific movements that they blind themselves to other possibilities. Allow me to compare it to painting. On one hand, you have a man who learns by studying and mimicking Delacroix. We can guess what his style will be like. On the other hand, you have a woman who studies by experimenting with color combinations and brush strokes. When she decides to make a completed piece, we have no idea what she will produce.

Offline Chad Johnson

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 05:01:41 PM »
I'm new and I just do light stuff whatever I'm comfortable with. small precisions, standard vaults over benches, cat-leaping short distances onto my-height objects

Offline Rowe

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 10:21:47 PM »
Challenge! Well, more like a half-challenge.

I am not completely against lessons and tutorials. They are beneficial for people who need help getting into decent condition and people who need a little encouragement. I remember how awkward my first night was and how I bolstered my confidence by watching a video beforehand. I have helped friends break through their barriers by posing challenges and working with them to overcome it. But, the sooner the training gloves come off, the better.

One problem with your analogy is that scales and chords are static. They are fundamental building blocks of music and they will still exist unchanged 200-years from now. Pretend that you are a budding pianist who has devoted months to learning Chopin's "Nocturne" in E-minor. You're testing out pianos at the music store and one catches your eye, but oh-no, every C- and E-key on the piano is broken. Do you sit down and try to make the best of the situation? Of course not. You find a different piano.

Slick surfaces, angled ledges, wide gaps, sore joints - the world is unpredictable and filled with broken keys, but true traceurs/freerunners don't have to find new places to play. They work around those keys by modifying movements. This doesn't happen when all you learn are the predetermined chords. I have seen it happen; a person gets so focused on moving a certain way that he becomes blinded to other possibilities and is incapable of adapting to the unknown.

I don't believe in doing "what comes naturally" either. Considering the way that we are raised, that probably entails a couch and a remote control. What I've always stressed is exploratory movement. After breaking the initial barriers, take some time to learn how your body functions in light of changing paths of momentum and positions. Like a puzzle, you envision the beginning and end of the movement, but have to find a way to fill in the middle.

You speak of learning with "greater proficiency," and in "the most effective way," but speed does not equate to understanding. A man may know how to do a perfect speed vault, but does he know why other foot placements or body positions are less effective, or how to react if his hand slips? This is why I am so adamant about not learning moves, but rather, learning to move.

Offline M2.

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 04:52:36 AM »
Rowe - Great Challenge! Thanks!!

I'll go through point by point.

the sooner the training gloves come off, the better - Not necessarily. Should you teach someone to land and roll and then send them out? Again, I covered this with "you can try to play what's on the radio after your first piano lesson, but you will only get frustrated. you CAN (as I stated) just go out and run any time, but learning the building blocks will get you to the point of adaptability faster.

Scales and chords are static - yes, and this is a problem with my analogy, not the idea. Permit me if you will to switch the whole thing to a guitar lesson, nothing changes until I introduce you to my friend Jimi. All the notes, the chords etc still exist, and learning them is still the surest path to becoming a good musician (again people with extraordinary natural talents excepted). Now you can take an instrument that previously had fixed objectives and do something people have never seen with it, or in the piano world we can liken this to Rock & Roll and a bunch of other "innovations" - the things we do in Parkour are not new, unique, or outside of human capability, they are simply thought to be that way by the masses :)

Slick surfaces - I agree, adaptability is key in Parkour, but I stand firm that a solid set of building blocks isd the best thing to adapt. If you practice 1000 speed vaults the exact same way, then there are many facets of a speed vault that simply "melt away from consciousness" ... I believe that being in that state of proficiency will allow you to naturally adapt and focus on the differences instead of on basic mechanics. On the other hand, if as you propose every vault you practice is in a different situation, I propose that you will not acquire the movement pattern to a level where you "forget" certain aspects of it and simply see the obstacle. Imagine trying to play a DIFFERENT instrument in each lesson, now you are not concerned with the music, but how to work the machine.

Finding a middle ground - This I totally agree with, I feel this is different than what you said in the beginning of "the sooner the better". However I feel we disagree on what "initial barriers" might be, as I discussed above, if you don't practice to a point of proficiency, then you are always searching and never finding. - See sidebar :)

"Greater proficiency and the most effective way" - neither of those implies speed, they imply ability. I have used the word proficiency (to many people's dismay) since I can remember, no matter what other people said the definition of Parkour was (usually "efficiency").

Here are a few lines about proficiency from various definitions:

able to do something well because of training and practice

If you show proficiency in something, you show ability or skill at it

skillfulness in the command of fundamentals deriving from practice and familiarity; "practice greatly improves proficiency"

adept: having or showing knowledge and skill and aptitude

So again, none of those says "learn today and be a master tomorrow" - but instead they say "Practice until you are good" - Similar to the quote attributed to David Belle - "A bad Traucer does a technique until he gets it right. A good Traucer does it until he can not get it wrong."

This is similar to what I am saying, if you only practice until you have it right, then you o not have adaptability or proficiency, you simply have "gotten a move" - however if you continue to practice that same basic move until it becomes ingrained, then you can apply it anywhere.

As per my original article when you do one day go out and "apply it anywhere" that is when, to me, it becomes parkour.



Sidebar - the learning curve, how people learn and why.

This is another MAJOR problem with the "try as many moves in as many places and always change it up" model that I didn't discuss in my original "short piece" :)

People need to see progress.

If someone DOES learn the notes on the piano and you instantly take them and hand them a trombone, they will get frustrated.

People need to feel accomplishment - they need to see that they "got something right" to be encouraged to try the next step. If what you lay out in front of someone is a series of challenges where they don't ever feel quite like they "get it" then they will lose interest. I'm not talking about the minority of people that will likely enjoy challenge and exploration enough to learn Parkour (or anything else) on their own and "the hard way" - those people are very rare in the scheme of things. I am discussing what is helpful in the overwhelming number of cases in helping ordinary people to learn Parkour. - Thanks to Sharpening the Warriors Edge: The Psychology & Science of Training<img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=americanparko-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0964920506" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" /> for solidifying my thoughts on this.








« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 04:58:25 AM by Mark Toorock »
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Offline frivolas

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Re: what should I do? help
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 01:15:00 PM »
Hi M2, Rowe.

I've read both of your points of view and approaches to the discipline and, if i may, i'll post my own.

I think that you're talking about teaching versus learning, and eventhough i feel it's a little unnecesary, it may be useful to point out a couple of things specially for the newbies.

Yes, i do think that the right way you should follow is to learn, practice and master all the techniques already developed in order to have a wider range of options when you're moving, and to obtain that proficiency you talk about, i totally agree. But you may agree with me if i say that you shouldn't seek proficiency only in your techniques, say your speed vault (to quote your same example), but instead, seek proficiency in your movement, regarding what technique, trick or vault you're performing, if you think other way, you may get stuck in just that set of moves. And I've got to understand that PK is not one vault, not even a set of vaults, I'm not doing PK when i perform one speed vault, i'm just doing a vault, no, PK is movement, fluid, efficient, aesthetic movement.

I also agree that you should be able to adapt to every environment you get into, to be able to feel the movement and perform it right. You should be able to know how to place your feet, how to throw your weight, how to put your hands and twist your torso in order to get that speed vault right and land it properly and safe. Each time. And this come out just with practice, and doing it in every different situation you may think of.

Now let me tell you what i think, but mostly, what i do when i teach.

I've come to teach individuals from almost every single background you may think of: sport billies, martial artists, runners, triathletes, professional swimmers, retired grand dads, weekend warriors, skinny children, overweighted teenagers, young moms, sedentary young adults, etc., what you'd see in a normal modern society. Each one of them has approached PK for different reasons and all of them have different learning styles and different skills, so they approach their training and evolution in a different way.

Some years ago, I used to teach them how to speed, kong, dash and reverse vault as soon as possible, because I used to think that as movement. Then i had to stop teaching for personal reasons for one year and during that time I had the chance to focus more on my training and mostly see how other people trained both themselves and other people, and I leant a lot from that, and for a couple of years now I focus on five things for the newbies: conditioning, feet placement, balance, jump and proprioception.

So now I don't teach the newbies one standard set of moves and I don't mean them to learn it in a standard period of time. I've found better if I teach them, or let me put this way, if I help them to learn how to know how their bodies perform, how they move and how they react, and this way, they learn how to control them. Then they start to understand what work they need to do in order to move the way they wanted the first day they came to the gym, and I work just as a guide for them.

I help them understand how to make their muscles and joints strong and powerful, and why. They learn how to use that strength, power and endurance in order to keep moving. They learn and understand how to place their feet before and after each obstacle so they can pass it easily and flow into the next one with no rush nor extra effort. They build strong cores and lean how to engage them so their bodies work as a unit, trying to use all the muscles as one system for each movement, this way they understand how to pull their backs to raise their hips to raise their legs, and they learn that what really matters is that they should perform the moves just the way they want, and by this I mean that they should choose how to move, doesn't matter if it's fluid or not, aesthetic or not, efficient or not, as long as they are choosing to move that way.

So after a couple of months they start to move in ways they never thought they could. They're now starting to control their bodies because they're beginning to understand them and knowing how to feel the movement, so now i can feel free to teach them specific techniques. I know that they will nail them in a couple of hours or less, 'cuz they already know how to move.

Of course not everybody likes this approach, as i said before, everybody comes from different backgrounds an environments. And what i also see is that lots of people, specially young male teens, have an incredible RUSH to learn, they MUST nail the kong vault NOW. As if their lives depended on that, well, their social lives if such. And this is matter for another long-as-this post, because i've also noticed that this rush is also caused and promoted by our educational systems, but the moment they understand that there's no rush, that if they want to do this for all their lives and that if they want to be and if they want to last they should be patient with their knees, they love it.

So yes, it's a play between teaching and learning. But remember that as a teacher, you must be there for your students. They're not there for you, and we should be focusing in forming athletes, not just cool jumping people.