Topic: -sigh- Help! push-up argument

[Drew H]

Ok, so on a different forum, I am fighting with these people over whether or not a push-up is actually beneficial to a workout.

I say no because they are just endurance training after you reach a certain level of fitness. If you can do at least 25 in a row they aren't really helping you develop muscle mass.

I just need some input from you guys so I can Re-direct them to this thread to show that I have back-up. (If you guys agree with me...)

Thx in advance! =D

[Grayson]

All depends on a person's goals. If a person's goal is to get to 100 push ups then of course they're beneficial, but if he want to get to a x2 BW bench max then they're not beneficial.

[Steven Low]

If your goal is strength, and you can do more then 20 it's probably not gonna help.

If your goal is endurance, then sure they'll be effective..

[tombb]

It depends. There's certainly nothing wrong with the motion itself, it's not all that different from a bench press for example. And you can increase the intensity by doing pushups from an inclined position, using one arm, adding weights on your back etc.

So I would say there is nothing wrong with pushups in general, the only problem is a mismatch between goals and number of repetitions and intensity levels with ANY exercise.
If you were going for strength training and used a load that was too light and did lots of repetitions, well then you are not really targeting strength and that's a problem. You are still training something, for example stimulating hormonal and metabolic changes, increased vascularization etc, and those can be useful in themselves but that's not targeting strength if that was your goal.

[FastGuppy]

Ok, so on a different forum, I am fighting with these people over whether or not a push-up is actually beneficial to a workout.

I say no because they are just endurance training after you reach a certain level of fitness. If you can do at least 25 in a row they aren't really helping you develop muscle mass.

I just need some input from you guys so I can Re-direct them to this thread to show that I have back-up. (If you guys agree with me...)

Thx in advance! =D

one arm push-ups or PPPUs would be good for strength.

[David Glass]

Clapping push-ups, Chest-Slap push-ups, One Arm Push Ups, tuck-planche push-ups... all these helped me towards my goal of doing 10 x 225# bench press... you can also do weighted push-ups

IMO, push-ups are better than bench because you get a more complete workout, but you have to be creative to keep challenging yourself... i.e. if you can do clapping push-ups easy, clap twice, three times, etc

[zayn]

when im was in cnctema(russian martial arts) we learned to do a single push-up. start in the up possion and slowly go dow, breathing, over the course of about a minute or 2. then slowly rise taking as much time as the first step. this strengthn tendons which unlike muscles seldom fail. itll help ur endurance and strength of ur whole upper body. this actually allows martial artists to punch through brick and such. ( i could do 2 at one point) if u want to work lower and middle switch to a sit-up and squat using the same princibles

[Spencer B]

when im was in cnctema(russian martial arts) we learned to do a single push-up. start in the up possion and slowly go dow, breathing, over the course of about a minute or 2. then slowly rise taking as much time as the first step. this strengthn tendons which unlike muscles seldom fail. itll help ur endurance and strength of ur whole upper body. this actually allows martial artists to punch through brick and such. ( i could do 2 at one point) if u want to work lower and middle switch to a sit-up and squat using the same princibles

Ummm... No offense or anything, but that is extremely counter-productive to power, that which helps martial artists bust through bricks and strength which simply cannot be trained well with such a low strength exercise in the first place. Not only that, it doesn't work out your entire upper body, although it would get quite a bit I suppose. And sit-ups, if you haven't read it already, are not great for anything.

[Shae Perkins]

when im was in cnctema(russian martial arts) we learned to do a single push-up. start in the up possion and slowly go dow, breathing, over the course of about a minute or 2. then slowly rise taking as much time as the first step. this strengthn tendons which unlike muscles seldom fail. itll help ur endurance and strength of ur whole upper body. this actually allows martial artists to punch through brick and such. ( i could do 2 at one point) if u want to work lower and middle switch to a sit-up and squat using the same princibles

Ummm... No offense or anything, but that is extremely counter-productive to power, that which helps martial artists bust through bricks and strength which simply cannot be trained well with such a low strength exercise in the first place. Not only that, it doesn't work out your entire upper body, although it would get quite a bit I suppose. And sit-ups, if you haven't read it already, are not great for anything.

Spencer:)......

I will agree that the info about the exercise zayn provided is more than likely not the best way to build the essential power to punch through brick, but I wouldn't go as far as to say coutner-productive!

[Spencer B]

Ummm... No offense or anything, but that is extremely counter-productive to power, that which helps martial artists bust through bricks and strength which simply cannot be trained well with such a low strength exercise in the first place. Not only that, it doesn't work out your entire upper body, although it would get quite a bit I suppose. And sit-ups, if you haven't read it already, are not great for anything.

Spencer:)......

I will agree that the info about the exercise zayn provided is more than likely not the best way to build the essential power to punch through brick, but I wouldn't go as far as to say coutner-productive!

I'm sorry, but I would. And again, no disrespect or anything even though I know I sound like a D-bag. Anyways... Power is work over time. High power output is achieved with more work, less time, or both.

Not getting into the math, the more strength it requires you to do and the faster you do it, the more power you have, which is what you're looking for something like breaking a board.

[tombb]

Ummm... No offense or anything, but that is extremely counter-productive to power, that which helps martial artists bust through bricks and strength which simply cannot be trained well with such a low strength exercise in the first place. Not only that, it doesn't work out your entire upper body, although it would get quite a bit I suppose. And sit-ups, if you haven't read it already, are not great for anything.

Spencer:)......

I will agree that the info about the exercise zayn provided is more than likely not the best way to build the essential power to punch through brick, but I wouldn't go as far as to say coutner-productive!

I'm sorry, but I would. And again, no disrespect or anything even though I know I sound like a D-bag. Anyways... Power is work over time. High power output is achieved with more work, less time, or both.

Not getting into the math, the more strength it requires you to do and the faster you do it, the more power you have, which is what you're looking for something like breaking a board.

Spencer.. No. 

First off, you still didn't even mention why that would ever be counter-productive, which would imply that somehow it's training that actually magically reduces your strength, which is obviously not the case at all, and if you wanted to keep claiming that it is, then you really need to explain the "magically reduces" part with an actual mechanism, rather than 'not going into the math'. 
Doing slower movements where the muscle fibers are fully recruited for prolonged contractions is actually quite effective at training muscle fibers, increase challenge, stimulate muscle growth and even helps hormonal and neurological adaptations (particularly recruitment of more fibers and coordinated unison contraction of them, giving you access to larger amounts of strength) that also improve strength.
If you can do an iron cross for a small fraction of a second or hold it for 20 seconds, those are quite different effort levels and training stimulations, and the longer one is actually more effective even for strength, "power" etc.
 
While plyometric is good and all, it's not the only type of exercise in the world that can help strength, power etc.
In fact beginners often have the problem that they launch the weights around so their muscles are actually minimally challenged and get to rest at the start and end of each fast contraction rather than getting good negatives, and the only thing that ends up getting trained is good old inertial motion...
In addition, the example of breaking a board does not necessarily require "power" or "strength", it requires training in a bunch of other unrelated areas which include proper form and trajectory, strengthening of bones through microfractures etc. And yes, explosiveness can certainly help, but you can pick-up a lot of speed with proper form and circular motions for example, and having increased mass and being able to continue to push through at impact rather than bouncing back helps too.

[David Glass]

"Not good for power?" "Not good for strength?"

This is all news to me. While they may be less effective for strenght than, say, bench press, they are definitely good for power. Do clapping push-ups, see if anything is better for power with the same motion.

As for the strengh argument, this is also relative. How many can you do? I can't stress how RELATIVE doing push-ups is for strenght, and by that I mean, are they better than bench press? probably not depending on how many you can do. Are they better than doing nothing? Are you freakin kidding me???

I just got my bench so I couldn't do any benching for the nearly 2 yrs I have been doing strength training. Nearly all the training I've been doing for pushing movements have been bodyweight movements with few breaks to hit the gym and do some bench work, and those would be months apart.

One day I hit the gym and did 7 reps at 225 lbs, after not having done bench press in 6 months or so, so clearly this strategy was working great for strength.

Like I said before, if standard push-ups are too easy and you want to train strength, do clapping, do tuck-planche push-ups, slap a backpack with weight on your back if you don't have a weighted vest and use that... need more drom? use paralletes.

[tombb]

While we are obviously in agreement, David, people will just see your picture/avatar and will just say "well, of course HE's going to say they are good no matter what..." hehe 

[zayn]

its true people like their own methods better normally. as for my excersize being counter-productive tell that to america's best cnctema fighter David       ( who i learned from) hes reconized around the globe. but to each is own and i find being able to do a single push-up over an hour( jesus christ that'd b insane)
is way better than 100k pushups. my work-out works for me it may not work for others.

[jonsmith]

Have to disagree that pushups are useless.  In fact, pushups and pullups are two of the best workouts that a person can do to strengthen their upper body.  I guarantee that if you give me two people of equal strength and stamina levels to train, and I train one by doing body weight exercises (with pushups as a cornerstone) and the other with pure strength training, that in three months the individual trained with purely bodyweight exercises will not only be stronger, but quicker, more endurance, better reflexes, and better overall cardiovascular health...[/i]guarantee it.[/i] 


   

[Chris Salvato]

That's a silly guarantee.  Its just not true.

[FastGuppy]

It all depends on the needs of the individual. Someone might have a lot of snap but not strength so in that case there would be nothing wrong with doing heavy squats.

Saying pushups are better than weights is silly. For one weights and push-ups can be combined. Two, they are both resistant training so in reality they are the same thing. Finally, you can build a lot of power through weights (Snatch and power clean)

Once I can do a legit one arm pushup and 15 PPPUs I will be doing weighted pushups. To try to do one fingered pushups (I doubt I'll see the day.)

[David Glass]

While we are obviously in agreement, David, people will just see your picture/avatar and will just say "well, of course HE's going to say they are good no matter what..." hehe 

Completely forgot about my avatar... Thanks for making me crack up... +1

My avatar serves as a reminder to all... Get out there and do them!

[Steven Low]

The big problem with threads on bodyweight exercises is that you can say well... this exercise is useless, but this one is not for strength.

"Regular" pushups after you can do so many aren't great... but one arm pushups or pseudo planche are more effective. They're still in the same "line" because they have "pushups" in the name.. therefore you can say that pushups are effective for everything.

If you're going to discuss something you have to IDENTIFY exactly what you are talking about and only that.

1. If we're talking about "regular pushups" in this thread, then no they are not effective for gaining anywhere decent level of strength.

2. If were talking pushups in general (as in all variations) then YEAH you can gain strength when you use different variations as you progress.

Gah.

[Spencer B]

I'm sorry, but I would. And again, no disrespect or anything even though I know I sound like a D-bag. Anyways... Power is work over time. High power output is achieved with more work, less time, or both.

Not getting into the math, the more strength it requires you to do and the faster you do it, the more power you have, which is what you're looking for something like breaking a board.

Spencer.. No. 

First off, you still didn't even mention why that would ever be counter-productive, which would imply that somehow it's training that actually magically reduces your strength, which is obviously not the case at all, and if you wanted to keep claiming that it is, then you really need to explain the "magically reduces" part with an actual mechanism, rather than 'not going into the math'. 
Doing slower movements where the muscle fibers are fully recruited for prolonged contractions is actually quite effective at training muscle fibers, increase challenge, stimulate muscle growth and even helps hormonal and neurological adaptations (particularly recruitment of more fibers and coordinated unison contraction of them, giving you access to larger amounts of strength) that also improve strength.
If you can do an iron cross for a small fraction of a second or hold it for 20 seconds, those are quite different effort levels and training stimulations, and the longer one is actually more effective even for strength, "power" etc.
 
While plyometric is good and all, it's not the only type of exercise in the world that can help strength, power etc.
In fact beginners often have the problem that they launch the weights around so their muscles are actually minimally challenged and get to rest at the start and end of each fast contraction rather than getting good negatives, and the only thing that ends up getting trained is good old inertial motion...
In addition, the example of breaking a board does not necessarily require "power" or "strength", it requires training in a bunch of other unrelated areas which include proper form and trajectory, strengthening of bones through microfractures etc. And yes, explosiveness can certainly help, but you can pick-up a lot of speed with proper form and circular motions for example, and having increased mass and being able to continue to push through at impact rather than bouncing back helps too.

Should've known that less wouldn't have been more. <- In regards to the length of my post. I had a longer reply typed at one point, but just said "That's too long, I want to be succinct in my wording and not overly drawn out in my explanations." Or something like that. 

Anyways, simply put, one pushup over 2 seconds produces 60 times the power of a pushup over 2 min. That's math. However, your mentions of all the other factors that go into being able to punch out a board are very true, and I must say I grossly neglected them, if only because this form of pushups were touted as almost the sole reason why they can do that, and I decided to respond accordingly. I shouldn't have done that in the first place, and I'm kind of sorry I did, because it didn't really help anybody.

Of course holding a cross for a half second would be less beneficial to strength compared to holding one for twenty seconds. I left out power because I'm not sure power would relate to a 'hold' exercise that much, if at all.

I'll use an example from Chris from long ago (5-6 months?) because I'm lazy like that.

Strength = Force Production
Work = Force Production * Distance
Power = Work/Time

Basic Physics.

400# Deadlift taking 2 seconds -- high force production means high strength.  Long time means low Power.
400# Deadlift taking .5 seconds -- high force production means high strength.  Short time means high Power.
100# Deadlift taking .5 seconds -- low force production means low strength.  Short time but low force means its the same amount of power as a 400# DL in 2 seconds...

And going off of the idea that higher strength means higher potential power, and how Endurance and Strength cannot be optimized at the same time, considering that the pushup variation in question would require a large amount of endurance to do, should (I hope) clear up my post.