Author Topic: I really need help. People who know what they are talking about answer in this.  (Read 2530 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

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holy crap

I go away for one day while jamming up in Denver and something like this happens O.o

Its going to take me like 5 years to go through all of this stuff and sort out the good from the bad....looks like a project for tomorrow.

From my quick skimming, Bryan seems to have it mostly right :P  I will need more time to review all this and clear up a lot of...junk...that came out here for interested parties.
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Offline BearMills

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Thanks so much Chris I was hoping you would post. Unlike you not to post on these asap. but you have an excuse. Thanks again, can't wait to hear what you have to say.
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Offline David Glass

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Whatever Chris' post, I recommend you keep a journal for both training and diet

Reason being, the ATP explanations and the metabolic pathways will all sound like "bla bla bla, eat less, train more". Unless you're smarter than most of us, it'll take some time to understand that, and until then, will be of no use to you (it's a process)

Keep a log, and I will drop in from time to time to help you out. If I know Chris, he will too
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Offline Dan Elric

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actually i am quite cetain about the first 10 minutes or so of exercise being fueld almost entirely by adenosine triphosphate reserves, i've had that information thrust upon me by four different classes.  when i said workout for longer periods i didn't necesarily mean to exercise continuously during those sessions, short burst training is every bit as important as endurance training, especially for something like parkour which could involve both long periods of endurance running and short burst exertion.  it's important to train all aspects of your body.

ATP "reserves" last for a very short amount of time (measured in seconds and not minutes).  The "reserves" are really just creatine phosphate and adenosine diphosphate.  The creatine gives its phosphate to the adenosine diphosphate and it become ATP, thus becoming usable energy.  The body cannot keep going like this for very long before requiring to manufacture more ATP via aerobic respiration or what have you.

I mean seriously, if we had 10 minutes of energy stored we would be able to sprint for 10 minutes straight.  I don't know about you, but last time I tried that I didn't make it very far.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 05:00:18 AM by Daniel Kelley »
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Offline Steven Low

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1. FIX YOUR DIET. This is going to be about 80% of the equation to fat loss.

I would suggest going a combination of zone/paleo.

2. Lift heavy and/or do interval work.

Heavy weightlifting compound exercises such as deadlifts, squats, bench, dips, press, pullups, rows.

Interval work such as rowing, sprinting, etc. Shorter or longer rest times are fine. Depends on what you're aiming for athletically though.

3. Don't worry about the physiology. This is not important to you right now.

 If you REALLY want I explained the metabolic pathways in "how to construct your own workout routine" MUCH better than any explanation here.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 09:09:32 AM by Steve Low »
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Offline BearMills

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1. FIX YOUR DIET. This is going to be about 80% of the equation to fat loss.

I would suggest going a combination of zone/paleo.

2. Lift heavy and/or do interval work.

Heavy weightlifting compound exercises such as deadlifts, squats, bench, dips, press, pullups, rows.

Interval work such as rowing, sprinting, etc. Shorter or longer rest times are fine. Depends on what you're aiming for athletically though.

3. Don't worry about the physiology. This is not important to you right now.

 If you REALLY want I explained the metabolic pathways in "how to construct your own workout routine" MUCH better than any explanation here.

Thank's steve I shall work on my diet today and also start the weightlifting and interval work. Can biking be considered Interval work?
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Offline Spencer B

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1. FIX YOUR DIET. This is going to be about 80% of the equation to fat loss.

I would suggest going a combination of zone/paleo.

2. Lift heavy and/or do interval work.

Heavy weightlifting compound exercises such as deadlifts, squats, bench, dips, press, pullups, rows.

Interval work such as rowing, sprinting, etc. Shorter or longer rest times are fine. Depends on what you're aiming for athletically though.

3. Don't worry about the physiology. This is not important to you right now.

 If you REALLY want I explained the metabolic pathways in "how to construct your own workout routine" MUCH better than any explanation here.

Thank's steve I shall work on my diet today and also start the weightlifting and interval work. Can biking be considered Interval work?

Yes it very much can, as interval work is anything done at high intensity for a period then resting and repeating. Although sprints would provide some of the best results.
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Offline BearMills

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1. FIX YOUR DIET. This is going to be about 80% of the equation to fat loss.

I would suggest going a combination of zone/paleo.

2. Lift heavy and/or do interval work.

Heavy weightlifting compound exercises such as deadlifts, squats, bench, dips, press, pullups, rows.

Interval work such as rowing, sprinting, etc. Shorter or longer rest times are fine. Depends on what you're aiming for athletically though.

3. Don't worry about the physiology. This is not important to you right now.

 If you REALLY want I explained the metabolic pathways in "how to construct your own workout routine" MUCH better than any explanation here.

Thank's steve I shall work on my diet today and also start the weightlifting and interval work. Can biking be considered Interval work?

Yes it very much can, as interval work is anything done at high intensity for a period then resting and repeating. Although sprints would provide some of the best results.

I don't know what the thing is called but it's where you Sprint for about a minute then walk a minute then sprint again and you repeat this
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Offline Spencer B

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I don't know what the thing is called but it's where you Sprint for about a minute then walk a minute then sprint again and you repeat this

Well, the most common form I've heard suggested and also one of the most grueling, is to sprint 400 meters, then take a 5 minute rest (or less, depending on your conditioning level) and repeat for a total of 4x.
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Offline BearMills

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I don't know what the thing is called but it's where you Sprint for about a minute then walk a minute then sprint again and you repeat this

Well, the most common form I've heard suggested and also one of the most grueling, is to sprint 400 meters, then take a 5 minute rest (or less, depending on your conditioning level) and repeat for a total of 4x.

yeah see I would do that if I could lol I am going to stick with the shorter sprints for right now.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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After reading the OP and the responses here several times I can't figure out why everyone is making this so complicated... ???

Alex, you need to fix your diet first and foremost.  Based on the diet you posted up it looks like you are still in the dark on the basics that I try to drill into people from the start.  Have you read my article?

Eating Right: How to Get Started

Fixing your diet alone will probably produce some pretty good results right off the bat.

To increase the speed of weight loss I would suggest a high intensity program.  I don't care what you do so long as its high intensity.  It can be SS or similar (heavy lifting), HIIT (like sprint repeats), Gymnastics strength programming, CrossFit style MetCons (www.crossfit.com)...even P90X or the new Insanity workout I just saw on TV this morning.  Get your ass moving - make it move fast, make it move regularly and make sure that moving it is hard.  Put in rock hard effort and you will get results quickly.  I highly recommend you identify performance based goals so that way whatever program you do makes you lose weight AND pushes you towards goals that you would like to hit.

Based on the photos you are SLIGHTLY overweight with most of your extraweight going to the lower belly.  This CAN be caused by stress but it can be caused by a few other things...like genetics.  The best way to get this under control is a pretty generic weight loss program as laid out above - high intensity workouts with a clean diet.

With that said....we kinda need to go back over 2 pages of posts and fix some stuff that is somewhat incorrect....

-----------------------------------------------------

3)  don't under eat, i know this sounds weird but try not to skip meals or eat too little at a time, besides making you tired and less focoused all day, you will eat a lot more than you need to, and if your schedule is anything like mine, youll end up eating later at night, when your digestive system is beggining to shut down and everything you eat just turns right into fat.

Fasting can be very beneficial.  Its not about skipping meals, necessarily, its about eating enough calories through the day to sustain muscle mass while being in a deficit enough to lose fat.  Properly fasting can be one of the most effective ways to get and keep weight under control.

The digestive system does not turn off at night and suddenly turn everything into fat.  There are no real drawbacks to eating just before bed...just avoid the higher carb, easy to consume stuff like crackers, chips, breads, sodas, etc. at all times except maybe post workout.

4)  try and get a workout in after dinner (not too soon after or the workout will suck, it's no fun trying to keep from vomiting while running a few miles, i eat around 5-6 and workout 9-11).  exercise will shut down your digestive system and (if it's hard enough of a workout) make the idea of eating rather unappealing, this is another good way too keep from eating later at night.

The effects of exercise attenuating diet are transient -- in other words, they are short term DURING the bout of exercise.  For example, you may not want to eat anything while doing a 1 mile run...but immediately after most people get pretty hungry.

The Post-Workout environment, that is, eating directly after a bout of exercise (usually within a 1 hour window) is one of the most beneficial times to eat food.  A properly planned meal involving "faster" protein and carbs is shown (with pretty rock-solid evidence) to improve fat loss and increase muscle mass gains.

If you are just getting started and this is an easy way for you to stay on schedule that is fine.  As you advance you may want to plan your workouts to be just before a meal.  For maximal control over the rate of absorption, most advanced trainees will fast before their PWO meal (which means working out on an empty stomach).

6)  make sure you workout for long periods, you don't really start to burn fat for like 10 minutes, before that your just burning up your ATP reserves, replenishing them will burn fat, but you really are better off working out for a few hours at a time.

The best results for weight loss, muscle gain and performance gain are well proven to be when workouts are kept under 1 hour.  Working out for hours on the regular is damaging and will hinder performance and recovery...unless you are going for advanced endurance work.

You are burning fat constantly - this is why we breathe.  Fat is the main substrate of our long term energy store - this is why we hoard it whenever possible...this is why our bodies turn excess carb into fat. 

This advice is based on a farce and I disagree with it strongly.

        im not a weight loss specialist or anything, and i certainly can't be sure of anything here helping you in a big way, but these are the things that i have found most usefull.  i still have a ways to go myself, im about 210lb atm, with a healthy body fat% i would probably weigh around 190, but i weighed 240 just a couple years ago, and i've grown 4 inches and gained muscle mass since then.

Congrats on your gains and improvements!  I think you may still have room to learn more, though.  Check out the stickies in this thread -- and for best weight loss results you should check out the stickies in the diet forum ASAP.

just work out every day.... run for 4 miles or more when you buid up to it....swim alot....and parkour/freerun as much as possible...the key is to disaplin your mind and body to do a hard work out....dont give up becuase its a mind game witch takes up about 98% of controle....you body take in the outher 2 %....so just keep practiceing!

josh from team Joke

I disagree with this piece of advice.  Running for hours will cause weight loss but it is a slow, boring process for most people and can be damaging on the joints for those who are overweight....and even those who are in shape.

There is a lot of mind/body control that can be gained from distance runs but if the goal is weight loss a higher intensity program is more warranted...not a voluminous program like the one you are suggesting.

Exercise when you wake up, before breakfast.
Your body runs on fat whist sleeping, and only begins to use glycerol when sugar levels spike, ie. after a meal.
Also drink water often.

As stated above, the body runs on fat pretty much all the time.  The oxidative pathway is dominant at times of rest which is heavily reliant on fat stores.

I do recommend working out before breakfast since the body is fasted and will get much more benefit from the PWO meal (in this case, breakfast).

    i didn't get all the way through the thread, but i think i got the general idea of it.  while the method adressed in the thread is valid, it's a total re-structuring of the way you eat, not quite the same as trying to controll what you eat while on a traditional meal plan.  my suggestion for not under-eating is based more on the psychological effects of going for long periods without food when you body is not used to it.  this is something i know fairly well because i have been dealing with the concequences of my ADHD medication killing my appetite for 12 hours a day (im concious 14-17 hours a day and if i don't force myself to eat during those 2 hours i will easily consume 3000 calories in my remaining few hours of conciousness).  on days i don't take my medication i find that it is a lot easier to controll my appetite at night and rather difficult to controll it the rest of the day.

You identified an important point...something that I hope you learn immediately before giving more advice here.  The point you identified is that eating like this has worked for you.  Everyone is different and while a frequent, small meal eating cycle (a.k.a. grazing) has been working for you does not mean it will work for someone else.  In terms of maximal, optimal physiological results grazing is not the best method, imho.  However, it does work for some due to the psychological factors involved with eating.

With this in mind, grazing is an option but not the best option as you presented it to be.  It may work for Alex, though, and if he has trouble with our other suggestions I would highly recommend he try grazing as a plan B.

   that would depend on how fast your metabolism is, i can workout just fine after a few hours of digesting time.  any good high-intensity workout will shut your digestive system down, THAT is why you won't want to eat, the idea isn't to make food unappealing, but to tell your body it's done eating for the day and burn calories at the same time.

Again, personal preferences and contextual differences.  There are benefits to working out while fasted, in the morning, at night, etc.  What works for you is not necessary the best...and the main problem Spencer has here is that you present these with an implication that they are the best option when they are not.

Your suggestion is an option and, depending on the context, it may work.  This is different from the best starting option, though.

      actually i am quite cetain about the first 10 minutes or so of exercise being fueld almost entirely by adenosine triphosphate reserves, i've had that information thrust upon me by four different classes.  when i said workout for longer periods i didn't necesarily mean to exercise continuously during those sessions, short burst training is every bit as important as endurance training, especially for something like parkour which could involve both long periods of endurance running and short burst exertion.  it's important to train all aspects of your body.

I think that you misunderstood many of the basics involved in how the body uses energy.  You may benefit from this...

Physiology of Energy Pathways (posts 1,2,3,14,15)

-----------------------------------

EDIT: Turns out I didn't need to write anymore.  Good advice from Bryan...and of course, looking back, my advice is pretty much identical to Steve's.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 05:41:47 AM by Chris Salvato »
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Offline BearMills

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Wow thanks so much Chris I am trying to create a diet plan for myself using your link I also am really excited to bring in the high intensity workouts like heavy lifting in HIIT. It's now 9:30 just woke up so I am going to go workout and do some HIIT with some parkour training, then keep going on the healthy meals etc. ill keep you updated
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Offline tombb

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Normally I post mainly to add extra corrections etc, but for once I figure I would post just to support and echo all the points that Chris made. Normally I would consider it superfluous but I want to especially commend him for the extra time he spent -explaining- a bit each.  I think that's very important because otherwise some myths never get dispelled if we just only give brief "do this" advice and say "everything is relative". Correcting myths in the long run can be more useful than getting the perfect prescription for the current question. It's like the old saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" (although I try to avoid killing to eat, ... so I am not completely endorsing fishing... but you get my point :P)

For example it's important to dispel myths like the one that you never burn fat until you run out of all other energy sources.
In reality you always run on a mix of all these energy sources (not just fat and not just ATP), and the body keeps a certain level of sugars and fats available in the blood at all times, and fat cells and other systems continuously release and absorb small amounts to adjust these levels. The big picture is more important here than taking one small detail (that the proportion of energy substrates you use can be affected a bit by what you have available) and taking it to excessive conclusions. At the end of the day, your body will have to replenish various energy stores, so even if you used mostly ATP, glycogen and carbs but you have a net caloric deficit (you ate less than you burned), you will use up stored fat to refill those other sources for the next day.

Another myth is that you have to eat a certain way, like breakfast is more important than dinner etc. It's not so much that every person is different and you can't say anything, it's more that you are in different situations and you should adjust accordingly but still based on the same principles.  Eating frequently or fasting at certain times both have the same goal, preventing you from overeating. If you wake up hungry, then maybe you should have some breakfast, but if you don't feel hungry until night regardless of whether you have breakfast or not, then don't eat when you are not hungry if you are trying to lose weight..  Some people have problems with larger hunger pangs if they don't eat often enough, so the advice to eat smaller more frequent meals is mostly for them. But others for example might not feel that much hunger but might find it hard to stop eating once they started, or eat out of boredom, nervousness etc, and if you are in that category you would actually do better eating even just once a day or controlling portions in other ways.

One thing I will have to disagree with here is the amount and length of exercise to lose weight, because that depends on preference too. For example some people have a harder time doing very intensive and short bursts of draining exercise, especially if they have been sedentary and out of shape for a while. For those people for example taking long walks or say reading a book or watching TV while doing moderate treadmill work for a lot longer feels nice and relaxing, is a bit more gradual, and easy enough that they don't mind doing it even for hours a day to finish their favorite books or TV series and keeps them off the couch and snacks longer. The amount of calories burned that way especially on a decent incline/resistance level is still quite significant and it can be easier for them to stick to it for months or years. There are multiple ways to burn more calories and eat less, and if one is easier for you psychologically, logistically etc, go for that.

As a side note, storing fat around the belly is really mostly a function of testosterone than stress (stress can make you store more fat, but a girl will still store fat mostly in a pear-like pattern and a guy in an apple or beer-belly pattern first) and it's normal for everybody.
So basically don't worry about the pattern, just consider that you have X amount of extra fat you could lose to be in better shape, it won't matter if you didn't do ab exercises etc. There is no risk of you having a low 5% bodyfat everywhere else and still have that bit of extra belly for example.

Offline Steven Low

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Visceral fat stores are also increased due to chronic stress from cortisol production. So if you're a stress-o-holic that may be something to look at as well... getting more sleep, better nutrition, better reduced stress levels, + working out etc.
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Offline BearMills

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update I have lost 10 pounds =D since my last post
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Offline Brett Robert

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update I have lost 10 pounds =D since my last post

Nice, way to go!

Offline Bryan Augstein

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10 pounds in 9 days?  ???

35000 calories / 9 days is almost 4000 calories lost a day. MAYBE possible if you haven't eaten at all in the past 9 days, but highly unlikely and unhealthy. This is not to say that you haven't lost any fat if you've been following the advice in this thread, but take this number with a grain of salt. I doubt it's an accurate representation of (only) lost fat.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 06:45:33 PM by Bryan Augstein »
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Offline Chris Salvato

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10 pounds in 9 days?  ???

35000 calories / 9 days is almost 4000 calories lost a day. MAYBE possible if you haven't eaten at all in the past 9 days, but highly unlikely and unhealthy. This is not to say that you haven't lost any fat if you've been following the advice in this thread, but take this number with a grain of salt. I doubt it's an accurate representation of (only) lost fat.

Switching from higher carb diets to lower carb diets usually results in a steep drop off of water weight within the first week or two.  I have seen people lose as much as 15# in 2 weeks from just water...
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Offline BearMills

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I drank a lot of water and worked out ok trust me I am anorexic CORRECTION lol I meant I am NOT Anorexic
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 12:14:22 PM by Alėx Millz »
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Offline David Glass

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Yeap, I concur. 10# in 9 days is definitely within the expected results when switching from high carb to low carb diets... weight loss will be slower now, just hang in there
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