Author Topic: Toughness  (Read 1809 times)

Offline FastGuppy

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Toughness
« on: August 05, 2009, 06:46:35 AM »
I often see Buddhist Monks and some martial artists who have developed "leather skin," Such as taking a punch to the face without being affected. I've seen a video of some guy getting kicked in the sensitive spot and he was completely unaffected.

How would you train for this? Not that I want to. . .
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 07:19:29 AM »
They call it chi, harnessing your body's energy flow.  Of course, scientists don't believe in such things, but are genuinely interested in it.  I've seen some pretty crazy things monks have done that are on the edges of what seems to be possible.  Researchers believe that the monks enter a meditative state that lowers it.  Ballerina dancers are known to make less of a certain chemical (I forget what it is :/) in the brain that causes the feeling of pain and therefore have more pain tolerance.
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 08:12:38 AM »
The changes that happen through such meditation are very real. I'm sure everyone has seen this photograph: http://meatofthematter.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/vietnam-monk-self-immolation.jpg

This is another interesting article: http://www.dalailama.com/news.112.htm

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »
Meditation? A lot of it has to be physical as well though doesn’t it? Interesting, I need a routine  ;D
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Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 12:22:47 PM »
They call it chi, harnessing your body's energy flow.  Of course, scientists don't believe in such things, but are genuinely interested in it.

A quick clarification, because it bugs me: scientists may or may not believe in such things.  I consider myself a scientist, and I see no reason to disbelieve the existence of qi.

Science is in the business of disproving explanations for phenomena.  They don't prove things to be true (that's left to the mathematicians), but rather eliminate different possible explanations until one most likely explanation (or no possible explanation) is left, and then wait around for a better idea to come up.  Scientists deal with correlation, statistics, and most likely answers, not with proving things right.  And everything all comes back to the most basic test: do the observations support this?

That's why a scientist's beliefs play almost no role whatsoever in his work.  I can believe that the world is flat until I'm blue in the face, but is a flood observations, both by myself and others, that contradict this.  Einstein didn't believe in the random nature of quantum mechanics, but the theory was better than classical physics in explaining most phenomena.  It all comes back to observation.  And since there have been plenty of people who have observed the phenomena often attributed to qi, then "it doesn't exist" isn't an acceptable scientific explanation.

My 2¢.  I feel like that was a long, rambling post, but my brain is too fuzzy right now to make it more succinct.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 12:58:39 PM »
They call it chi, harnessing your body's energy flow.  Of course, scientists don't believe in such things, but are genuinely interested in it.

A quick clarification, because it bugs me: scientists may or may not believe in such things.  I consider myself a scientist, and I see no reason to disbelieve the existence of qi.

Science is in the business of disproving explanations for phenomena.  They don't prove things to be true (that's left to the mathematicians), but rather eliminate different possible explanations until one most likely explanation (or no possible explanation) is left, and then wait around for a better idea to come up.  Scientists deal with correlation, statistics, and most likely answers, not with proving things right.  And everything all comes back to the most basic test: do the observations support this?

That's why a scientist's beliefs play almost no role whatsoever in his work.  I can believe that the world is flat until I'm blue in the face, but is a flood observations, both by myself and others, that contradict this.  Einstein didn't believe in the random nature of quantum mechanics, but the theory was better than classical physics in explaining most phenomena.  It all comes back to observation.  And since there have been plenty of people who have observed the phenomena often attributed to qi, then "it doesn't exist" isn't an acceptable scientific explanation.

My 2¢.  I feel like that was a long, rambling post, but my brain is too fuzzy right now to make it more succinct.

The existence of a flowing life force energy is something really far out there.  I am unsure of the existence of chi, and until it has been further studied upon, I will remain skeptical.  I am at fault because I included all scientists, which I am sure there are scientists who believe in it.  More study is needed.
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Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 01:21:47 PM »
The existence of a flowing life force energy is something really far out there.  I am unsure of the existence of chi, and until it has been further studied upon, I will remain skeptical.  I am at fault because I included all scientists, which I am sure there are scientists who believe in it.  More study is needed.

Perhaps I should be more specific: no one that I know of has observed qi per se as an energy or life force, but there have been those who have observed phenomena attributed to qi, such as the aforementioned toughness of practitioners' skin or the success of traditional Chinese medicine.  Qi, in my opinion, is not the thing that should be explained or "proven", but rather the phenomena that are often attributed to it.  Nor can qi really be said not to exist even if it's explained by Western science, since it's just a concept that encompasses various disparate phenomena.  It's like saying politics don't exist because it's explained on a smaller scale by sociology and, on an even smaller scale, psychology and rhetoric.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 01:55:30 PM »
The existence of a flowing life force energy is something really far out there.  I am unsure of the existence of chi, and until it has been further studied upon, I will remain skeptical.  I am at fault because I included all scientists, which I am sure there are scientists who believe in it.  More study is needed.

Perhaps I should be more specific: no one that I know of has observed qi per se as an energy or life force, but there have been those who have observed phenomena attributed to qi, such as the aforementioned toughness of practitioners' skin or the success of traditional Chinese medicine.  Qi, in my opinion, is not the thing that should be explained or "proven", but rather the phenomena that are often attributed to it.  Nor can qi really be said not to exist even if it's explained by Western science, since it's just a concept that encompasses various disparate phenomena.  It's like saying politics don't exist because it's explained on a smaller scale by sociology and, on an even smaller scale, psychology and rhetoric.

I see.  Well, I believe these phenomena can be explained through mathematics and science.  And when understood, can be applied.
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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 02:14:49 PM »
The existence of a flowing life force energy is something really far out there.  I am unsure of the existence of chi, and until it has been further studied upon, I will remain skeptical.  I am at fault because I included all scientists, which I am sure there are scientists who believe in it.  More study is needed.

Perhaps I should be more specific: no one that I know of has observed qi per se as an energy or life force, but there have been those who have observed phenomena attributed to qi, such as the aforementioned toughness of practitioners' skin or the success of traditional Chinese medicine.  Qi, in my opinion, is not the thing that should be explained or "proven", but rather the phenomena that are often attributed to it.  Nor can qi really be said not to exist even if it's explained by Western science, since it's just a concept that encompasses various disparate phenomena.  It's like saying politics don't exist because it's explained on a smaller scale by sociology and, on an even smaller scale, psychology and rhetoric.

Qi sounds more scientific. It sounds as if it borderlines Biology and physics in this case.

I guess you could call it metaphysical or philosophy of mind, but to say that we don’t need to know would be to elevate the most ignorant things. It would be much wiser to say we cannot explain this phenomenon instead we cannot know. There’s a huge difference

To be honest I think people just don’t know what they’re talking about. I think Qi could potentially be easily explained through science. These degrees are like a big stroke for their ego - that they know everything.  You can tell a good and bad scientist from a simple answer. If they say “I don’t know for sure” to a lot of answers, they’re probably legit.

When a scientist tells someone that’s impossible they probably aren’t very good. There is much we don’t understand in our world so there is little room for ego.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 02:17:38 PM by FastGuppy »
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Offline Anne

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 05:23:12 PM »
I'd say more along the lines of biopsychology than biology and physics. We have yet to completely understand the human mind and brain. Placebos, for example, prove that the mind is very powerful. As I understand it, these monks train tremendous discipline of both the body and mind. As practitioners of a physical art, I'm sure we have (or will, at some point in out training) experience something similar - the determination, the willpower to go on and complete a movement or a series when the body feels tired and ready to quit.

The universe is full of mysteries.  ::)
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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 06:25:05 PM »
No, it's not too awesome. How can I learn new things about the universe when I don't even have a clue how girls work . . .
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 06:34:35 PM by FastGuppy »
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Offline tombb

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 06:25:38 PM »
Actually, scientists and engineers can prove things as well, also because they are mathematicians and logicians themselves.
It depends on the subject and type "thing" to be proven.
Experimental observations in and of themselves may just be in agreement or conflict with a particular theory, yes. But for example you can still construct solid proofs by construction (can you build a machine that can add numbers is a question about reality, not just abstract mathematics or geometry, yet any of the billion ways to do that are a solid proof of existence or potentiality).
And you construct proofs that hold securely as long as all the premises still hold, that is also much more than just disproving alternatives. In fact proving and disproving something is exactly the same, you set your premises, make reasonably sure they hold true and that everybody can see that, and then use logic to arrive to a conclusion. As long as the premises hold true, the proof holds true forever. If any of the premises turns out to be inaccurate, even something you thought you disproved might end up being true after all. But before anybody starts going all nihilistic, in practice most things get to be pretty accurate or near-perfect after just a few iterations, especially as we use premises that held true over and over.
And even small adjustments are often enough, maybe one of the premises was that your instrument measured the sum of two things instead of just one, the result is still valid, but you might need an extra experiment to separate that sum, etc.

But in agreement to some of what Patrick mentioned, belief doesn't have anything to do with science or technology.
A computer is not working because we believe in it, the term belief is something generally reserved for something that is not part of science or even of the observable reality.
I can believe in invisible unicorns that are completely undetectable and have no impact on reality. That's because there is no way to ever verify or disprove that they really exist or are part of reality, by definition.
If they were, I wouldn't have to believe in them, they would be just a normal observable and reproducible fact of life. I could run any of hundreds of possible tests and the results would always show that they exist.

Now, about special energies like chi/qi/ki etc. scientists do not believe or use it because so far there has never been a need to invoke it to explain any repeatable fact in reality.
We use plenty of special energies already, like electricity and magnetism, gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.
In a sense those are also something somewhat mysterious that we can't quite touch or see directly, but we can see them absolutely repeatably indirectly, for example rubbing tennis shoes on a carpet and making a small electrical shock spark from our fingers to our unsuspecting friends we see the light generated by that spark, or we can see magnetic lines around a speaker using some metal powder, etc.
In contrast, there is nothing repeatable in reality that isn't already explained well by the fundamental forces I already mentioned and that would require a 5th special force, nothing.

In terms of martial arts in particular, everything that you can see repeatedly is quite well-grounded in reality and science.
For example, to break bricks, wood and other objects people use special training that induces a lot of microfractures in their bones, as they repair over time they change the structure of the bone itself, and that makes it much harder and resistant. That's a measurable change you can see in X-rays or even bone samples under the microscope.
And in fact it's similar to well-understood techniques used even in sword-making (the reason why their metal are tempered and refolded many times over) or in material-science in general, where you induce crossing molecular-lattice-structure dislocations to harden a material like a metal (you might have seen if you bend and unbend a piece of metal eventually it becomes harder to bend again, more brittle, but harder)
And the technique, speed and control of recoiling vibrations are also something very much real and therefore perfectly scientific. You can measure those exactly with a lot of instruments (high speed cameras, pressure sensors, computer models etc).
In fact, you can make something with similar material properties as hardened bone, and use a mechanical system to reproduce the same type of collision and obtain the same results, even if most people wouldn't attribute special martial arts energy to a robotic arm connected to a computer for example.
Even other things like taking hits better or worse are grounded in reality and therefore science, for example you can learn to take hits in a way that absorb and dampen harmful vibrations and much of the force etc. You get the idea.
But again none of these are supernatural in any way, because they are actually real, and therefore reproduceable (even by mechanical systems or even simulations and equations) even if they require special training and often even talent.

Even things like "willpower" are still very measurable, dependent on very clear and real mechanisms like total neural output, effects of adrenaline and other chemicals, and are modified by training etc.

Now, on a personal note, I have done a bit of martial arts myself and actually use traditional concepts like chi more as a convenient visualization and coordination concept, so while I still know well it deosn't exist it is still a very useful practical abstraction to use while you practice and it's easier to think in terms of pre-facilitating some motor neural circuits and coordinating breathing and contraction of certain muscle while relaxing others, getting pumped-up with thoughts that release more adrenaline etc. I can do a few of the typical demonstrations of chi without "believing" in it at all, because again they work by very real and scientific mechanisms.

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 06:29:02 PM »
So tom what do I do to get "leather skin?"
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 06:44:26 PM »
The body is extremely adaptable so it wouldn't surprise me the things it can do when taken to the extreme.

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Offline TR

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 08:14:44 PM »
I've seen a guy hanging from his nuts soooo yea.. just puttin that out there rofl

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2009, 10:36:06 AM »
Meditation? A lot of it has to be physical as well though doesn’t it? Interesting, I need a routine  ;D

Meditation can and should be a routine. Whether you need the science to back it up, or whether there is any science relating meditation to "leather skin," that's up to you to find out on your own if it's important for you to have that. I do know there is a lot of science currently exploring the effects of meditation on the brain and body, with positive results. Again, whether or not it will make your skin tough, I don't know. It could be all physical conditioning as others have described. But there are still benefits to meditation that you will notice in other areas of your life, and mental training is just as important as physical training for what we do. If you choose to incorporate meditation into your training, there is an article about it here in the fitness section.

Regarding the conditioning factor, and Daniel Kelley's comment about "ballet dancers having more of a chemical in the brain" that intercepts pain sensation... feh. I don't know about that. All I know is, the resistance to pain comes from years and years of training. You get your toes shredded to hamburger, lose toenails, and hop on the tips of your toes long enough, you just stop feeling it. :) Kind of like traceurs' hands, really. No chemicals needed, just training and conditioning.


No, it's not too awesome. How can I learn new things about the universe when I don't even have a clue how girls work . . .

Girls are a total mystery, dude. Just accept it. :)

She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

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Offline tombb

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 11:59:12 AM »
Muse, about the brain chemical comment, the brain has different amounts of chemicals even in response to hearing a joke or a sad story or in response to feeling pain, and also adapts its stores accordingly to prepare for future repeated events, so it's something perfectly normal and to be expected. If a dancer had the same amount and distribution of brain chemicals as anybody else, that would be unusual and unexpected. All parts of your body adapt to repeated training and stimuli like low-level repeated pain bouts, including your brain.

Ultimately there aren't really separate mental and physical effects, because all real measurable effects of what people might call mental training are very much physical changes in your nervous system, at the cellular level, interconnection, gene expression, chemical stores, signaling molecules like hormones etc. Even something like willpower is exercised by specific physicla mechanisms, because that's how it interacts with reality.

FastGuppy, you are not describing what you mean -exactly- by leather skin (for example just ignoring pain or just reducing bruising or just increasing thickness or rubbery proteins in skin). If it's something not well documented there is also a good chance it might be mostly a hoax or parlor trick, so you want to make sure that's not the case first. Then you want to really ask yourself if it's even something desirable, because there are always tradeoffs. For example an overweight kid that never exercises might have a thicker subcutaneous layer of skin compared to someone in perfect shape with very low bodyfat and visible veins in their muscle. The exposed veins on a hard muscle surface may be scratched or bruised more easily but many would still prefer them.
And you can do a lot of ugly and mostly useless things to your body, like TR89's example, or the examples from various odd body modifications like tribal elongated necks with rings, but why would you...

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 12:34:48 PM »
Hm. True, Tom re: brain chemicals. I mean, the whole body does adapt. I guess the point I was trying to make (and failed to clearly articulate) is that dancers can resist pain due to training (and its resultant adaptation). This means bones, muscles, skin, brain, nerves, etc. adapting to the repeated stresses of training in such a way as to reset what is considered "normal" by the body. In other words, dancers aren't able to resist pain just because they have higher levels of pain interceptors in their brains just because they are dancers ('cause that's a circle!)... but rather, they pay for those higher levels of pain interceptors (or whatever they are) with hours and hours of sweat, just like martial artists do and traceurs do, etc.

So... yeah. We agree. :) I was just a poor communicator.

She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

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Offline Anne

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 03:28:00 PM »
No, it's not too awesome. How can I learn new things about the universe when I don't even have a clue how girls work . . .

Ahahahahaha.

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Offline Mark Lewis

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Re: Toughness
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 05:19:40 PM »
As far as natural vs supernatural phenomena goes, or the idea of mind over matter, or will power, or any other like phenomena; I have found it to be very unproductive to try and draw neat little lines around things. Discussing ideas in isolations means you ave to make a base set of assumptions and this necessarily limits the application of that argument.

To be plain, it's not only your physical being and all its minute biological components that is real and constant; you also have a consiousness and experience through which you operate. These two things affect each other constantly. They don't exist in separate universes and they certainly don't operate in isolation from each other.

The basic idea at hand in this thread seems to be; not so much how to explain these phenomena, but what is humanly possible. Most people disagree alot on this subject, and I can't answer this with certainty. What I can say is that many of us got into parkour to test these very limits in ourself; and parkour tests not only the body, but the mind. It requires you to be mindful of both.

My advice, if you want to achieve anything, is to be mindful of both the internal and external forces that surround and permeate you (however you make sense of them) and then progressively overload yourself until you reach your goal. Be slow and steady. Be mindful as your responses adapt. Try also to be specific, don't expect the resilience of your palms to carry over to your stomach. Most are suprised at what they are capable of when they become truly aquainted with themselves for the first time.
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