Author Topic: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!  (Read 50870 times)

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2009, 02:12:09 AM »
Erwan is not the only source of information nor in my opinion the best on many of these subjects. By holding your breath waiting for his books, his website to release information etc you are falling into the trap of his marketing. The system maybe patented and he may keep it secret but just because he doesn't broadcast it doesn't mean it contains any super crazy amazing secrets.

could you suggest some places i should look for info? specifically relating to natural stuff

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2009, 02:40:36 AM »
Look at each of the utility exercises. For example, look at the experts on Olympic lifting, etc for the lifting stuff. That's what most of Hebert's lifts are, anyways. The press, snatch, deadlift, etc have changed a little in the past 100 years, but they're fundamentally the same.

Also look at industrial sites, where they have to do a lot of lifting heavy or awkward items. They should have plenty about proper use of the legs, back, use of leverage, etc to lift, carry and throw things.

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2009, 07:48:29 AM »
Look at each of the utility exercises. For example, look at the experts on Olympic lifting, etc for the lifting stuff. That's what most of Hebert's lifts are, anyways. The press, snatch, deadlift, etc have changed a little in the past 100 years, but they're fundamentally the same.

Also look at industrial sites, where they have to do a lot of lifting heavy or awkward items. They should have plenty about proper use of the legs, back, use of leverage, etc to lift, carry and throw things.

yea thats what i figured:) thanks:) not many experts in quad-ing tho lol:)

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2009, 10:20:49 AM »
Ah, but Pilou has read Hebert's book on Quadrupedie. I will make a QM thread, and post.

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2009, 01:28:46 PM »
btw how much time do you think you should put into each of the capacities???:S

maybe:

walk + run      =  23%   
quad      =  4%
climb      = 15% 
jump      =  8%           
lift         = 7%
throw     = 7%
carry      = 7%
catch     = 7%
balance  =  7%
swim      =  7%
defend   =  7%

er...i have no idea really

what you guys think?:)

Offline Ozzi

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2009, 04:38:51 PM »
Hmm, that is a good question, I think we should all strive to attain 100% capability on each skills if you ask me. So I figure every time you train you should od most if not all of them.
"Be the change you want to see in the world"
 Ghandi

Offline Derek broussard

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2009, 08:49:28 AM »
 I think the amount of time you would put into each of the twelve movements is up to your goals and your enviroment.  If you live in a tropical enviro. then it may be more applicable to swim, balance and climb, while if you live in joshua tree it may be more applicable to run, and climb, And only swim enough to be practical, 

 After you MASTER your terrain, move on to other bits of the world. eventually you will be able to master and adapt to all ecosystems,

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2009, 10:45:36 AM »
yea good point but im really interested in training naturaly more than training situationaly, for situational training i think the method you suggest would be perfect but even if some of us live in land locked areas we still ahve bodies which are also suited to swimming (among other things)

great pic btw:)

Offline Derek broussard

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »
I dont mean to sound like im saying DONT do the stuff  Not in your area.. Because over time you should become efficient in all the 12 movements.  But obviously if you live in kansas where you have lakes and pool. your not going Breath hold dive as well or as deep as someone from hawaii.   Living in hawaii im not going to climb as well as someone training natural  in the 'gunks.
  play your strengths
 If it came to the point where my life depended on climbing up a rock wall or fighting through 10'ft surf I would take the surf
  IM ranting a little so im going to get back on track

   let be break down how I would hypothetically train. this is assuming you live in an area like me. where Water rules and there is a decent amount oh steep and wooded terrain .  I say hypothetically because I dont train, I do whatever is "fun" and available for that day.


         Percentage of that skill trained/ week or month.....                                  efficiency **
          walk/ run  10-15%  ***                                                                          100% 
           quad      = 20 %                                                                                   80%
           climb      = 2*%                                                                                   20%
         jump      = 10%                                                                                       80%         
         lift         = 3*%                                                                                       100%
         throw     = 3%                                                                                        20%
          carry      = 13%                                                                                       100%                                                                                 
          catch     = 5%                                                                                          60%
          balance  =  20%                                                                                      100%                                                                                 
        swim      =  30-45%                                                                                    100%
       defend   = 10 %                                                                                           60%
         

 * some movements are basic to train and shouldn't take up much time.  climbing, some pull ups and campus board may be a rope takes 15-30min a week. and lifting even less.
 * Efficiency in my mind is based on current sport  benchmarks. An avid climbers average about v9-5.13's, swimming distance a mile or free-diving 3,2,5 (3 min breath hold, 20m dive, and 50m distance. NO FINS)
*** Walk/running should be done daily as your transportation.. because thats what it is. Forget about cars, buses, trains... we where meant to travel far on our own feet use them


 Ones  a movement has reached a particular efficiency then Taper down that skill to once a week to maintain. Then start focusing on another set of movements..

                                                                                       

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2009, 07:01:14 PM »
Ok. That was a short break. Sorry. Your discussion is just too cool, and I don't want to have you going on for a month without me.

You gotta do what you can with what you've got. I like to have fun, but some times, I like to train hard, too. Both the surf and the rock wall sound like fun to me. 4-6' faces I'm comfortable in. 10' backs [20' faces] no, sorry Derek. I'm going to have to pass on those.

Figure out what your abilities and limitations are. Hebert and Erwan seem to focus on weaknesses - if you can't swim well enough to help yourself [or someone else] in an emergency, you need to work on swimming.

Hebert's whole system was based on training large groups of kids/ marines. So his first goal was to get them to "0" level in all his tests. When you know that everyone in your platoon can:

high jump .8m, running high jump 1m, long jump 2m, running long jump 3m,
run 100m in 16 sec, 500m in 1:40 and 1500m in 6:00, rope climb 5m without using legs,
throw 7.25kg 5m, lift 40 kg overhead, swim 100m in 3:00, and stay underwater for 10 sec, 

that gives you a certain amount of confidence in them.

More later.

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2009, 08:02:49 AM »
high jump .8m, running high jump 1m, long jump 2m, running long jump 3m,
run 100m in 16 sec, 500m in 1:40 and 1500m in 6:00, rope climb 5m without using legs,
throw 7.25kg 5m, lift 40 kg overhead, swim 100m in 3:00, and stay underwater for 10 sec, 

my new set of goals...

does he consider qm more of an exercise for climbing and therefore doesn't put it in?
and what about balance and defence?

id say i could do the running, climbing and swimming, maybe the jumping and probably not the lifting and throwing

EDIT: anyone wanna suggest for carrying and catching?

walk 20m carrying 30kg?
catch 4kg throw from 5m????

this forum is awesome!:D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 09:29:52 AM by naturalninja »

naturalninja

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Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2009, 10:32:10 AM »
Good goals. I'm still working on a couple of them - esp my runs and rope climb. If you think you can already reach "0" level, then try for +1, +2, +3... to be considered "athletic", you had to be at +5 in all 12 tests.

In the 2nd edition of "Practical Guide" QM and balance were both basic climbing exercises. So they weren't tested.

Defense... I'm not sure. The book seems to imply that if 2 people got the same score on the 12 tests, whoever won a fight was considered the stronger of the two? I'm not sure if this was only theoretical, or since they were already sparring they would pair up the people of equal scores.

Catch and carry are Erwan's extensions to MN. Catch would be hard to test, because you'd be relying on something external to do the throwing. Unless you can get something reliable and consistent, there would be too many variables. One possibility could be one of those tennis ball serving machines. Put in 50 balls, see how many you could catch.

Carry - let me think about this...

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2009, 10:40:05 AM »
lol funnily enough i had the same idea with the tennis ball amchine except it was chucking rocks at people

im gonna try an get the 0 level score in everything first to be a movement generalist and all that, ill report back with my results

balance elementary for climbing?:S

i like the downplay of defence 'cuase i never really saw how defence was that natural, situational sure, but natural?

EDIT: the more i think about it the more i like it, 'cause although balance is really good is not really an essential utility (well unless your balance is woeful), and similarly with qm:)

EDIT EDIT: does anyone have the table which goes from -5 to +15 'cause im not at some of the 0 goals yet:(

btw +5 swim 100m is 2mins, todays world record is 47.5 secs! (well teh interents says so anyway)

man i gotta stop this and study...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 11:29:38 AM by naturalninja »

Offline Derek broussard

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2009, 01:28:10 PM »
carry, I would suggest 50-75%of body wieght  for 1 mile.

 military ruck march which is pretty much much carring wieght on your back (45-60lb) is 12miles in under three 3 hours.  Or 20 miles in under 10hrs

Gregg, while both (the wall and and waves) sounds fun,  The  Area you live in will dictate your natural  skill level, If the wall is a v8, No hold larger then a width of pencil slightly inverted..   Or 8-10' waves..   I would hope you would choose what your more skilled with.

NINJA:
     Balance is a HUGE part of natural movents and training, But like I mentioned earlier;  Personal enviroment plays a large part in individual needs. "balance is really good is not really an essential utility "  This may be the case for you and your enviroment.  But for someone who lives elswhere it may be an absolute neccesity to get to a-b. Case in point is   the Pacific North West.  Alot of times the ONLY way to cross rivers or gullys is to balance over fallen trees. With floods, cold, and white water it would be death to try to wade or swim through.



  FITNESS SCORING SYSTEM and Natural fitness.

 I dissagree with this concept

1)  This system was made for the French(?) military. Militarys are built around written standards,

2)  Humans are naturally fit, If you are able to excell in your invorement (and able to adapt to foriegn enviroment.). IE able to get to point a-b,  navigate over, under, through objects to find food, and  be able to save yourself  then  you are truely "fit"

  Checkpoints and a scoring system are good for motivation, But not a necessity.


Defence: I would say that this is a good skill to protect yourself others and your food. Is this a "fitness" skill probably not  but a very important natural skill.

 Forgoten movent or skill:

 I think orientation is missing or should be part of the twelve skill levels,
 Not knowing which way  to travel makes it very hard to save yourself.

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2009, 01:33:21 PM »
I think it's interesting to do the 12 tests every month. It was fun to see how the numbers climbed from +12.1 to +44.65, and then depressing to see it fall, fall, fall...

Defense not natural? You need to spend more time watching animals. Boxing and wrestling are constrained, controlled and contrived ways of defense... but that's the point. The goal's to be healthy and useful. If people cripple each other, they're no longer healthy or useful.

Defense wasn't downplayed. It's just not easy to test it individually, methodically, objectively. Too many subjective variables.

Rocks aren't so fun to catch. I "juggle" jagged ones all the time, but I'd hate to catch one of them coming at 80 mph.

Carry: If you wanted to score this, there are 3 variables: Weight, distance, and time. Score = kg * meters / sec.
  Maybe the Farmer's Walk? You have a heavy weight in each hand, and have to carry it on a there and back or slalom route as fast as possible. World's Strongest Man competition uses 2 160kg [353#] cement blocks with metal bar handles or 125 kg [276#] "suitcases". I don't think I could even deadlift 320 kg, let alone walk with it.
  20m is too short. 30kg may be too light. But with the formula, you can easily compare apples to oranges:

250 kg * 50m / 50 sec = 250 [newtons?] = WAAAAY too heavy for me.
30 kg * 20m / x sec = 250 --- solving for time --- x = 0.24 sec = 300 km/hr = 186 mph = I can't run that fast
x kg * 1000 m / 250 sec [4:10] = 250 --- solving for weight --- x = 62.5 kg [138#] = Maybe with some work...

The easiest thing would be to start with a heavy but do-able weight, for kg/2 seconds. Say (2 * 25 = 50) kg for 25 sec. When the stop alarm goes off, your score would be 2 * m. So if you got 50m, your score would be 100. This would work great on an American football field, where every yard is marked off. Super easy to tell how far you went.

Not quite so easy: Starting with fixed weight and distance. Say (2 * 25 = 50) kg for 50 m. Score would be 2500 / sec. So if you haul butt and finish in 15 sec, your score would be 167. If you can sprint, and finish in 10 sec, your score would be 250.

The problem here is that 10 sec is just so short. It's hard to time yourself 100% accurate even for 100m sprint. You start looking at fractions of seconds, and it gets messy. If you have someone else to time you, this would be ok, and the math isn't THAT sloppy. Still, if you can sprint 50m in 10 sec carrying 50kg, you're beast, and should try heavier weight.

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2009, 02:00:25 PM »
carry, I would suggest 50-75%of body wieght  for 1 mile.

?!?!?!?!

The  Area you live in will dictate your natural  skill level

i get what you mean, kinda like situational-naturalness, sounds really MovNat-ish, but really im more into just naturalness than situationality (i am into situatuionality too tho):)

  FITNESS SCORING SYSTEM and Natural fitness.

 I dissagree with this concept

1)  This system was made for the French(?) military. Militarys are built around written standards,

2)  Humans are naturally fit, If you are able to excell in your invorement (and able to adapt to foriegn enviroment.). IE able to get to point a-b,  navigate over, under, through objects to find food, and  be able to save yourself  then  you are truely "fit"

  Checkpoints and a scoring system are good for motivation, But not a necessity.


imo the checkpoints are good 'cause i can say "im ok at running and climbing, and im sorta ok and swimming and jumping, but i suck at lifting and throwing so i need to work on them the most"


Defence: I would say that this is a good skill to protect yourself others and your food. Is this a "fitness" skill probably not  but a very important natural skill.

certainly very important in the time we live in, but i dont see how its natural

 
 Not knowing which way  to travel makes it very hard to save yourself.

i think mn was just about movement although i think erwan had a post about this in the .Net thread, saying that lots of stuff like first aid, sign language etc are situational but not actually natural movement

naturalninja

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2009, 02:06:06 PM »
I think it's interesting to do the 12 tests every month. It was fun to see how the numbers climbed from +12.1 to +44.65, and then depressing to see it fall, fall, fall...

Defense not natural? You need to spend more time watching animals. Boxing and wrestling are constrained, controlled and contrived ways of defense... but that's the point. The goal's to be healthy and useful. If people cripple each other, they're no longer healthy or useful.

you scored +44.65! thats amazing!!!!

"healthy and useful" i thought we wanted to do things naturaly:S

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2009, 03:04:23 PM »
Derek posted while I was writing that novel ;D

50-70% body weight for 1000 to 1500m would be a good challenge. Same for the ruck marches. Personally, I would mix it up.

I'm not skilled at either a 5.8 no rope climb or 8-10' waves [16-20' faces]. If the wall is low enough, I will try to pop or wall run it. Else, I'll look for something with obvious and large holds. [Or a channel in case of the waves]

Balance is important enough that Hebert upgraded it from a climbing exercise to "utility" classification. Same with QM.

Fitness scoring system and Natural fitness. It's fine that you disagree with it. So what standards do you want to use for your environment? Oops. Now suddenly we have a system again. Systems are nice if you want to set and achieve goals. That's why weightlifting works. It's good for motivation, like you said.

1) This system was made for French marines and adapted to civilian use. The standard "0 level" was the military minimum goal, just like the SEALs have a minimum goal. [Note - for kids and teens, the minimum goal was less, depending on age].

2) Right. If you're naturally fit, you should be able to excel and adapt. There are some skills that will help you in most environments. That's what the 8-10-12 utility exercises are.

Defense: It was designed for military, before widespread use of motorized transport, machine guns and bio-chem warfare. Still, even modern military and police learn unarmed combat. For them, it's not just a nice skill to have. This was "safe" training. There's a reference at the end of the defense chapter for more extreme stuff.

Orientation: It's an important skill, but it's a knowledge skill, not so much a physical skill. I agree that it's important to learn how to reckon from nature, and how to read maps [and be able to tell when they're WRONG]

@ Ninja -- I see you posted while I was posting. Good. I like this. TWICE?? Oh junk. I'm glad we're not playing the HIpk post game any more.

carry... work up to carry a buddy. At one time my goal was "Save Akebono" the sumo wrestler. I figured if I could get him on a sheet and drag him 50m or so, that was good enough. I could pull about 520# of boxes across carpet and tile, but not the full weight.

I think he's saying, "If you have a lot of 5.8 climbs in your area, you'd better be able to climb a 5.8. If you plan on going north shore during big surf, you'd better be able to get out of it." I totally agree with that.

Points. I use em. Alternately, I can tell you my 100m, 500m, rope climb, etc... but it takes longer than saying I was +44.61 but now only +25.71. Bad diet, and ineffective training [plus I did the +44.61 over a week, and the +25.71 was doing all 12 tests pretty much right after each other. The page about doing all the tests in one day was missed in the original Google scan, so I didn't know until I got the missing pages from BionicGrape]

Defense is natural for an animal. A cat will defend with teeth and claws. Humans are more than animals, but we still scratch and hit and kick and bite and pull hair. And use tools. So that people don't get badly hurt practicing, you have to agree on some limits.

MN was just about movement. Stuff like first aid, and orienteering are critical skills to have. HOWEVER -- he did include basic lifesaving in the swim section. It's not really swimming, but with a lot of non swimmers in a water environment, it was a skill he wanted his people to have.

I think I'm caught up. I hope so.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2009, 03:46:08 PM »
Sorry for the text walls. If I wrote that much every day I could churn out a 50,000 word novel in 2 months.

@ Ninja - Thanks for the abstract about Hebert's "Swimming". It was short, and it was sad... "Finally, the comparison between Hebert's proposals in 1913 and 1959, and the general concern for learning to swim at both periods lead to the conclusion that Hebert moved from innovation to obsolescence."