Topic: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!

[Gregg]

What is MoVNat? (Method Naturelle)

MOVNAT is an outdoor functional training method designed to develop, maintain or restore the full range of natural human movement capacities such as walking, running, jumping, climbing, moving on all fours, balancing, lifting, carrying, throwing, catching, swimming and defending.

Through practice, fundamental physical qualities such as speed, strength, endurance, coordination and flexibility are developed. Training also necessitates and promotes the growth of essential mental and moral qualities like self-control, courage, will, focus, alertness, and respectfulness, solidarity, cooperation, and reciprocal altruism.

Lastly, just as MOVNAT promotes the return of the body’s natural physical capacities, it also encourages respect and concern for nature. We train to be able to move naturally, we train in nature, and we train to connect ourselves with the natural world and to care for it.

"One's got to be strong to be useful, not only to oneself, but to others"
Georges Hebert

"Any person", whoever he is, if he really wants to live his life to the full of his abilities, has towards himself some physical duties to fulfill, just as he has, in another point of view, some moral duties to perform and some social obligations to respect. These duties constitute physical morality. They can be embodied in a double formula: to develop oneself and to preserve oneself in order to be able to help others.

Appearing in France in 1905 and elaborated by Georges Herbert (1875-1957), the Natural Method is more than a simple concept of training for the body, it is a genuine physical and moral education method, based upon reliable experience and on over a century of history. Here is the definition given by the inventor himself:

A methodical, progressive/graduated and continuous action, from childhood to adulthood, aiming to ensure integral physical development; to increase organic resistances; to highlight the aptitudes in all kind of indispensable exercises, both natural and utilitarian; to develop the energy and all the other qualities of action; finally to subordinate all physical and manly gain to an idea of a prevailing moral: altruism!

Training by The Natural Method privileges movement in all its forms. The exercises are classified into 10 families which are:

Walking
Running
Jumping
Climbing
Quadrupedal movement ( moving on all 4 limbs)
Balancing
Lifting
Throwing
Defense
Swimming

All these exercises flow from one to another during a session of 40 to 60 minutes and enable complete and utilitarian physical development. Moving about, flexibility, freedom of individual action, continuity, alternation of effort and graduation of the intensity of work are the main teaching principles of the method. The sessions take place preferably outdoors in purpose-built spaces or not, but can also be held inside for reasons of convenience.

The Natural Method is intended for people of any condition regardless of age, sex or starting level of fitness. It has a practical and immediate application in everyday life, as well as in emergencies or danger, giving the ability to assist others in whatever form.

The motto of the method, to be strong to be useful, is in fact the condensed formula of the following sentence:

"One's got to be strong to be useful, not only to oneself, but to others".

Learn more about Georges Hebert here.
Here is a VIDEO example

I have seen that a few times, there are certain shots were he does look like him but I doubt it is.
there is another OLLLLLD video of an original Zorros episode with this guy doing crazy amazing stuff for his time. He was  a stunt man, you can see kongs, pop vault. I'll see if I can find it. His name was something Burbang I think.

Douglas Fairbanks was the original zorro

There you go, thanks.

Wow that dude on the video was pretty amazing.  I dunno bout that tire rolling, but the rest was unreal... Nice, thanks Ian

well it was from a 1930s movie about inventors.
so i think the tire rolling was from a different guy

here are some methode naturelle and movnat training videos

http://www.vimeo.com/1223381
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmMKgtoDGcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtncKujyjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8vHQrbwgE

I'm not sure if this is Herbert but its pretty amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FheeVpFYo

[Gregg]

Here is another one you all will love, pumps me to get our training going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGF-ErsJiI&eurl=http://www.parkourgenerations.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=423&p=2672&feature=player_embedded

ya i just saw that the other day.
its an awesome vid, i think he re-did an old video he made before

MOVNAT is Erwan Le Corre's update and expansion on Hebert's Natural Method. Unfortunately, the links to his stuff were all on .net, so they're all messed up.

This is from Rafe Kelley, Sept 2007. Rafe trained with Erwan Le Corre in France and has a background in many athletic endeavors including CrossFit and parkour.

This is the post I intended to open this blog with a statement about what I know about the Methode Naturelle as my training in Methode Naturelle is going to be the focus of this blog. Up until this spring my primary training focus had been parkour dating back to march of 2005, before that it was gymnastics though with substantially less dedication, and before that it was basketball and before that martial arts. I am now at the point that I can say that the Methode Naturelle has superseded parkour in my training as parkour superseded gymnastics, for me it is more primal more vital more complete like when I started training parkour I have the feeling of how in the world did I miss this before. Why didn’t I ever follow through on my desire to mix parkour training and self defense and why did I yearn for barbells, kettlebells etc when I had so many rocks and logs available to me, what possessed me to waste beautiful sunny days inside training crossfit?

So I am at the point were wish to dedicate my training to the Methode Naturelle and I wish to also help other people follow the same or a similar path. The complication though is that my understanding of the Methode Naturelle is still very incomplete I hesitate to call my training Methode Naturelle, I think of it rather as Methode Naturelle inspired. Imagine for instance you wanted dedicate your life to Muay Thai training but had only had a four-day seminar on it to base your training on. I do think that the Methode Naturelle is bit easier to explore on your own, the principles are relatively simple though the degree of depth possible is seemingly limitless. So the purpose of this post is to explore what I do infact now about the Methode Naturelle. …

The idea of training to have the essential capacities of our hunter forager ancestors had appealed to me ever since I started parkour. It was my goal to eventually open a school teaching what I saw as the original warrior arts. …

The aim of the Methode Naturelle is to develop a complete and healthy human being physically, mentally and morally through the training of the vital natural capacities of the human species that were necessary for our survival as hunter foragers. … The motto of the Methode Naturelle is etre forte pour etre utile meaning be strong to be useful. The training of the Methode Naturelle is not to reach an aesthetic goal or to win an athletic competition it is to prepare the individual to be a strong useful person capable of helping him or herself and the others around them in wide variety of situations.

The vital movement capacities of the Methode Naturelle are to walk, run, jump, climb, quadruped, balance, swim, lift, carry, throw and defend.

A Methode Naturelle training session should be between 20 and 60 minutes and include as many of the natural capacities as possible (generally). The ideal conditions for Methode Naturelle training are in a natural environment with as much of the body exposed to the elements as possible while maintaining modesty. Which is not to say you cannot train the Methode Naturelle in the city or a gym or with shoes on only that this training is not the ideal.

Training should be daily or close to it.

A Methode Naturelle session maybe natural or methodically which is to say one might simple start moving through there environment looking for ways to practice all of the natural capacities for a given time period or one might instead plan out specific route hitting specific capacities or even build a specific course to train each capacity. The obstacle courses seen throughout the world in military training are derived from this last method.

Training each of the ten capacities alone is not sufficient one must be able to chain them together. That is to train one capacity directly after the training of another capacity so that there is no rest between them. so the body is forced to learn to adapt to moving easily between different capacities. This can be very challenging; each capacity has specific physiological demands, which must shift when moving to a different capacity. Furthermore one should be able to mix capacities to be able to run, swim and balance while carrying for instance, or defend yourself while balancing, or swimming, or while climbing this of course adds yet another layer of challenge.

The Methode Naturelle aims to develop a generalized physical capacity not specializations. That is to say to it is the belief of the Methode Naturelle that the athlete who is able to run fast, but also far, to lift very heavy weights but also to climb, to defend himself but also to swim is more useful then the athlete who is peerless at any one of these activities but incompetent or even just less competent at the others. The Methode Naturelle is expressly non competitive because competitive sport is seen as not useful, friendly games are fine but the expression of excess that is modern sport is contrary to the goal of usefulness both in the aim to win at all costs and in the requirement for excessive specialization. The Methode Naturelle athlete, will never run with speed of the sprinter nor the endurance of the marathoner, he or she will never develop the upper body strength of the gymnast or the fighting mastery of the martial artist, he chooses instead, to be as good as he or she can at all of these things and more because he or she never knows what capacity will be called on, for him or her to be useful. According to the Methode Naturelle the generalist is the most useful athlete.

It seems to me very easy to adapt the Methode Naturelle towards developing specific attributes. I am not sure how Hebert approached this, however Erwan talked about seeking to always train the areas were you are weakest. I think this applies both to a specific capacity and also the duration, volume intensity of the training, so one might need to work on their overall running capacity or might specifically need more endurance, or more speed. This can be adjusted by including shorter or longer periods of relative rest (walking, balancing etc) the key is not to stop moving or rest completely. A Methode Naturelle session composed of lots of relative rest, and many short high intensity movements will develop strength, speed, and power, one were the pace is relatively constant and as hard as possible for the given session will develop cardio respiratory endurance, and stamina. My impression is that the later style of training is considered the more basic and important. The amount of relative rest and intensity of work is just one of the many ways in which you can vary your stimuli to develop a broad overall capacity. For instance perhaps one is very strong but lacking in accuracy and wishes to work on the throwing capacity, for this individual finding the heaviest rock he or she could and throwing it would be much less beneficial then finding rock that was much lighter and casting it at a challenging target. In the Methode Naturelle one should always adapt ones training in such a way as to strengthen your weaknesses.

One of the things Erwan often said about the Methode Naturelle was it was not a conditioning program like Crossfit, or RKC or similar functional fitness programs. The Methode Naturelle is an entire method for the development of the human animal. In modern athletics we often dichotomize practice vs. conditioning, one develops technique the other develops physical attributes. This dichotomy is false though, doing precision jumps will develop strength, power, and stamina for jumping as well as correct technique, while doing dead lifts or squats will not only increase the strength of the legs but also will develop a specific lifting skill. I believe this dichotomy arises because of specialization, for instance sprinting is to specific a physical capacity to develop the entire ability of the human being so in order to be the best sprinter one must also lift, and jump and do various other drills but when one trains for a complete physical adaptation the distinction between skill and condition disappears almost completely, when your goal is simply an overall adaptation does it matter if your ability to climb is more due to finger strength or more due to correct technique? If one continues to train correctly both skill and condition should advance together.

… What I have seen consistently though is that the athlete with a highly developed overall physical capacity will need very little time to learn the skill of the athlete who focuses on technique. Traceurs often seem obsessed with developing the saut du chat technique for instance and there are constantly questions on how to do it. I train gymnasts though and they will do this technique very well with absolutely no training at all simply when given an obstacle to overcome were this is an appropriate technique. In short fundamental training proceeds technical training in importance.

[Gregg]

I've been posting a LOT of MN related stuff. Why?

Unlike Honolulu, most of Maui is unpaved. As much as I love parkour, it just isn't catching on here, yet. So I see 2 ways to go - freerunning for the flippy dance acrobatic people, and MN or MovNat, or some hybrid for me.

I'm going to keep looking for stuff, but don't hold your breath... unless you're underwater, training your dives Grin

http://movnat.com/

Erwan's site is up... how much info? Not much. It's propaganda and $eminar ads.

THIS ARTICLE IN MEN'S HEALTH has way more useful information. Sigh.

Nice article.  Definitely learned a few new things.

I really like this it makes complete sense.

"The Methode Naturelle athlete, will never run with speed of the sprinter nor the endurance of the marathoner, he or she will never develop the upper body strength of the gymnast or the fighting mastery of the martial artist, he chooses instead, to be as good as he or she can at all of these things and more because he or she never knows what capacity will be called on, for him or her to be useful. According to the Methode Naturelle the generalist is the most useful athlete."

Update, just read the Mens Health one.  Couldn't stop reading. The information is really awesome.

http://naturalathletics.blogspot.com/

This is Rafe Kelley's blog -- he was Faelcind over on APK and .net ... one of the "No Competition" toe-running guys from PKWA.
This is good stuff, and inspiring. I want to go out and train MN now.

this was a great read. ill read the links later when i get on my comp

[Gregg]

Video: “MovNat - Erwan Le Corre Barefoot Running”
Natural movement: Erwan Le Corre
Filmmaking: Timothy Kahn
Music: “Sampling Memory” by Tryad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwbzpyterI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmovnat%2Ecom%2Fmedia%2Fvideo&feature=player_embedded

The article had some stuff in sidebars that didn't get onto the net version.

Run without stopping - despite flying sticks, sand, rocks... overcome obstacles without slowing.
Humans can innovate and cooperate... so find creative ways to work together.

Sample workout [repeat cycle 2-5 times]

Evade
QM monkey 20 yards, sprint 50 yards, jog back, QM crab 20 yards, sprint 50 yards

Escape
Long jump, run a few strides [repeat 10x]
Jog to 12" obstacle [step, bench, log]
Jump over it back & forth 10x

Attack
Run to pull-up bar. Pull-up to failure.
20 reps each: punch, knee kicks, elbows
Sprint 50 yards, jog 50 yards [x4]

Balance
Squat til fingers touch ground. Walk 10' line without bouncing. Stand --> squat 5x. Precision a couple feet away. [repeat section 5x]

Rescue
Jog to 50# weight. Lift to waist. Carry 15'. Hoist to chest. Push-throw it. Sprint to it. Repeat.

But his own workouts are nothing like this.

Nice examples.

Im guessing his is much more extreme?

You think we should put the MOVNAT vids in the pic/vid section?

Not sure if you guys know but we do already have a MOVNAT thread HERE If anything this should go on the fitness section.
Plus we now need to combine the two threads. The other one has more vids to.

On the vid,

How did they keep the camera so steady. I remember Gregg you told me once we need a steady cam (after you saw the falls vid)
Is that just a camera that stays steady no matter what?

I remember Ian made a MN thread but forgot where. Thanks.  I agree we should combine and move to fitness.
Gregg's translate of the MN manuals are pretty useful too.

I was wondering about the cam work too. At first I thought maybe they were on a bike or something motorized, but the rocky part changed my mind, and it is just way too steady for something like that.  That would be a really useful function to have...

I noticed he has a wide angle lens on. What type/size of wide angle/fisheye lens do you guys use? I just ordered a x.5 for $25... Good enough?

We have yet to get one of those 

Hmm I thought you already had it. Your videos look pretty wide.  My camcorder probably just isn't as good.  I need upgrade with wat I can. 

The MOVNAT vids should be in the vids thread, but the discussion about MN and MovNat theory and practice shouldn't be in the video thread.

A Steadi-cam has gyro stabilizers in the assembly that fits over the camera operator. It resists movement, at least up and down. They're really expensive.

[Gregg]

from $200-2,000.  Google action

[Gregg]

MovNat - Training at Wildfitness                                   
I now have some fresh MN training ideas  .

Video

Inspiring.

UnNatural Method

1:02 of yesterday's training. I was going to do every element of MN [walk, run, jump, climb, lift, throw, attack] on the garbage pile [and swim after]. After my first fridge flip, I concentrated more on lifting, pushing, etc.

[Gregg]

Yea! haha. That was awesome G.

Unnatural method. lol   It would be so funny to see a cops expression if one were to just pull up.  To see his expression after you tell him that you're just working out... lol   

That was some uncoventional training, way to work with the surroundings.  Thinking in the future - traceur walking down the city street picking up empty abandoned appliances to fill his MN urges. lol  Nice change up G

Nice, awesome stuff. Like the way you basically helped the community while training. Awesome stuff.

Thanks, ya?
I figured it was the best way I could inspire you guys.
I'm glad the cops didn't come. I might have scared them - and got shot  Shocked

[Gregg]

I'm trying to pick up the tidbits that Erwan drops on his MovNat.com site... not that he drops a lot

World's Most Annoyingly Fit Man article

I've copied out some of his comments... I would say I'm still in the exploratory stages of understanding Methode Naturelle. I take what I can, and play with it how I can. Erwan has expanded MN to TWELVE basic exercises:

Walk, run, jump, climb, BALANCE, QUAD MOVEMENT, lift, CARRY, throw, CATCH, natural combat and swim. They're natural expansions... I think Hebert had already added balance and QM by WW2.

#
Erwan Le Corre
May 28th, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Teenagers can have a beautiful energy and thirst of life, but also totally lack of objectiveness. There is often some sort of “hero complex” in the need to film and exhibit oneself for the sake of it. I guess it is probably part of a personal journey that helps to get to know oneself better, just that it doesn’t help when it contributes in spreading misconceptions that can tend to dilute a meaningful and well-defined concept and turn it to a vague, meaningless one.

It can be convenient to train indoors for instance if weather conditions are really bad. You have to understand that training in nature is not a golden rule, it is training natural movement that is. If for any practical reason it is more convenient to train inside, it makes sense to do so, can be because of lack of suitable outdoors location in big cities, because of extreme cold, pouring rain etc…Indoors places also offer the advantage of full scalability, means safety especially in beginners, though it’s also possible to have this kind of purpose-build area outdoors. It can greatly help your progress than it is possible to adapt the context to fit your current skills. In nature, you don’t have that. It’s a take it or leave it deal all the time, you have to adapt to nature, not the only way round. That’s the ultimate stage.

There is no reason for me to de-popularize Hebert that is so much my inspiration, but only to explain where he comes from, beyond the romantic legend. Also, I refrained myself from turning this essay into an encyclopedia so I kept it simple, essential.
By the way, we have no real clue what were Hebert’s personal skills, he was rather skinny but muscular, which is actually the natural athlete body type, but for some reasons I have never found images of him performing movement and real account of his physical skills, just that he was pretty in shape. It leaves us with the conclusion that what truly matters about him is to remember what was his ability to inspire people and his qualities as a physical education leader more than him as an athlete. Same goes for Amoros.
I would say the same about myself, I have displayed some of my movement to inspire others, and to also show that “the video matches the audio” or in others words that I walk the talk, but in the end, what matters is my ability to spread the concept of natural movement training and education on a solid and lasting basis.
Because my intent is to “produce” new generations of natural athletes that will also inspire others, and generations of MovNat coaches that will provide a solid natural movement education to people.
This is what matters rather than my personal level of fitness.
Like I said, we can be admiring the past, be impressed by what others can do, but we also need to inspire, impress and admire ourselves!
Honoring the legacy is good, but it’s even better to make it alive again, means make it evolve and move forward. That’s the direction of life itself: always forward.

Sean, thanks. My true drive, my entire purpose behind MovNat is education in natural movement and then sharing the True Nature philosophy, to be strong, healthy, happy and free.
It all will unfold step by step. Rome wasn’t made in day.
In the next post, I will underline and explain why MovNat is not just Methode Naturelle with a new name.

Per, I will deliver as promised, and what I promised is basic training tips somewhere in June, likely to be by the end of June. Basic because it’s important to be realistic, nothing replaces direct coaching. So I will rather focus all my energies in teaching others how to teach others. i.e certifying professional trainers in MovNat, rather than let people think they can learn everything in just a few clicks. It has to be real. The tips will help you get started indeed, but think that the more you will use them, the more thirst for knowledge and experience it will generate ;-).
#

Erwan Le Corre
May 28th, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Matt, indeed, I have started writing a book about MovNat, the philosophy and practice of natural movement. It obviously takes time to write a book and at the moment, I lack of it because of all the practical side of the development of MovNat, but for sure it is on its way.
Both sides of the coin truly matter, a meaningful practice stems from a meaningful philosophy and no there is no meaningful philosophy without actual application and experience through practice.
As for possible plagiarists, the key here is to be always a step ahead so that it is clear who leads from front and who’s only trying to jump on the bandwagon.
I am not talking here about the rather few people that have been out there already, and sometimes for years, trying to push a similar orientation in the fitness milieu and which approach and efforts I obviously highly respect. Everybody involved in the shift to the natural that is coming in health and fitness, that they are there as early initiators or leaders genuinely driven by a sense of mission or just followers, will positively contribute in any case. You can be a follower, and become a leader. You see, the only thing that doesn’t change is that everything always changes, according to the ancient wisdom . Nothing’s static in this world.
So it doesn’t matter what the “bad guys” do, in fact they will participate in the overall revolution of natural movement, that they do it with noble intentions or not.

Per, it is amazing how many people have got in touch with me the past 3 months and from a lot of different countries, even tiny ones!
I understand your point totally though and you understand mine, some tips will help you get started and think “great!” and you will make progress as well as understand “hey, there is only so much I can learn on my own”. I am well aware there is only so much I can convey online and that’s why I prefer to warn people that I cannot deliver something that is unrealistic.
There is already half thousands people that have filled out the MovNat pro form so far, mostly fitness professionals, so you can also be sure than in not a too long time there will be an army of MovNat coaches to spread the practice on a solid, professional basis and hopefully there will be one in your area .

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback, which helps me to better understand your questions, concerns or expectations.
#

Erwan Le Corre
May 29th, 2009 at 2:44 PM

That’s an interesting point Damien, actually MovNat can be trained just anywhere and anytime and this is a big aspect of the philosophy and training method.
“The Workout The World Forgot” video was shot in the summer in Corsica, same about the barefoot running one, and same about most of the photos in the gallery (a few in Kenya where I recently worked), not in the green, dense Brazilian jungle. Corsica is not at all anything of tropical and fancy destination, nature there is gorgeous but tough, rugged, dry and you could find kind of similar areas in the USA that are amazingly beautiful natural locations, in about every state, and that are very accessible. You don’t need to go to a tropical island. You can train in the winter as I do to, with clothes on and shoes on, or in a city, a park, a yard, it is a very opportunistic and adaptable training.
You can check out 2 posts there at http://barefootted.com/ if you scroll down where there are photos of winter running in the surroundings of LA with my good friend Barefoot Ted.
As for “paradise”, my paradise is everywhere nature is, whatever the season and I have never heard that going to nature is only for wealthy people, which I am personally not at all ;-).
I hope it helps .
#

Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Cloud, the ability to defend oneself ranges from the most primal to the most technical way. So you want to train both, from hyper simple close range moves to elaborated techniques that you need to learn and refine.
So basically, depending on the situation, you want to respond in the most primal manner first and as soon as possible go for more complex moves.
I believe that styles like Thai Boxing, elements of Kravmaga are good for the primal, stand up side, but I also believe that when it comes to ground game the Gracie jiu-jitsu has arguably the best combative program because it’s 100% on realistic street application.
Of course, MMA schools are excellent, I think it’s fantastic that the sport grows so much, men are fighters at heart and training hard betters us and gets us more balanced in life I think.
#
Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Hey Lane, the book will cover the whole philosophy of natural movement and will be a practical guide to get started.

Lane, please don’t take what follows personally because I know you’re a nice person (Lane is…a Zookeeper, yes people), but I will use the comment you made to express some of my thoughts.
Regarding unaffordable trips, many people have asked for training directly in Brazil and are impatient to be able to sign up so it means many people are willing to finance this, I don’t know if they are wealthy or not, I know some told me they just would save because they want this experience. Well, the Men’s Health article is all about my training program in Brazil and if I didn’t hold some of them there then people would keep on ask for them.
Many have also expressed their concern to not be able to travel that far and this is why I have announced seminars directly in the USA. Many have also told me that they could attend only if there is an event held in their own state. And many others have asked if there is a book or a DVD they could buy.
I deeply respect that some of us are financially challenged and it is actually currently my case, but what can I do? I am really not well-off myself at the moment, as I need to spend or save whatever to move further with MovNat as my ambition is to develop the concept and practice widely and essentially on a professional basis. I guess everyone needs to deal with their own agenda or means.

I am still in the process of applying for an O-1 visa to move to the US, it is a slower process that I thought and it just delays everything, since I cannot announce seminars if I don’t have enough guarantee that I will be able to work legally.
Remember, I am a French citizen, and despite the amazing support of so many Americans (through emails) it’s all about dealing with red tape.

As soon as I get that visa, I should be able soon to travel around the States to coach people where they are, with short clinics and for a decent price. I am about education. My goal is to spread my natural movement education program. It goes beyond fitness and beyond a so-called confidential business in tropical paradises for an elite of wealthy people, even though there will be punctual events of this type and even though I could just do that, it is not where my heart and vision is. I train anyone whoever they are and it can be anywhere, I don’t do it for free, but you don’t have to be a billionnaire.
Last Saturday, I trained a group of 10 people 7 hours non-stop in a London park and gave my best given…I had been sick like hell for two days with malaria. A very tough tropical disease.
But I had an engagement and some people came their way down from Scotland. I just told them I was not feeling so well today and then carried on.
I was rushed to hospital the day after and just got out from hospital today, completely weakened.
It’s not about the money.
#
Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Yosapayan, MovNat has not much to do with parkour. First off, MovNat is extremely comprehensive as it derives directly from Methode Naturelle, while parkour, also originated in Methode Naturelle, is deprived of any element of lifting, carrying, throwing, catching, fighting or swimming.
That’s a LOT missing when you think with a situational mindset and then understand the necessity of broad movement skills to be able to face broad situations. If you have this situational mindset that is truly realistic, a broad training is a no-brainer, but if you don’t have it you just keep on refining a few moves over and over, which is what most parkour guys do, which is what every sport specialist does. They are not many to complement their training with what parkour is lacking of.
Secondly, the MovNat program has several training types to obtain specific results while parkour training is fully undefined, it is up to everyone to figure out basically, and how do you learn? You watch youtube video and try to do the same, with its share of trial and error and injuries.
You need to be very young and have a lot of free time to go this way.

There are thousands of parkour videos on youtube, but in the end, who practices parkour? 95% teenagers and 90% males. I believe something is very wrong here. It tells you something about a crucial and key point: this practice is failing in reaching a truly broad audience because it is way too intimidating to people and because it is still stuck in its rebellious underground image that male teenagers love but that just scares everybody else away.
There are many local parkour communities around the world that do a truly fantastic job in helping beginners to train the right way and provide lots of guidance, but why is that? Because they have no official coaching system and no professional coaches or very few so far.
This is why all my energies will be as soon as possible fully focused on MovNat certification seminars, as I intend to entirely base the development of MovNat thanks to professional coaches, not amateurs.

As regarding Ross Enamait and Gymjones, absolutely excellent programs, I also recommend them, even though our approaches differ, but that’s what makes the world richer.
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Aaron Brown
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Hiya!
I was introduced to MovNat via the MH magazine article and have been highly interested in it ever since. The article sparked my interest because during the summer, I typically don’t have access to a gym and so it sounded interesting. It is my hope that if I don’t go abroad to study in the fall, that I might save up enough to come to one of your seminars. Until then, I’m trying to get the hang of the workout listed in the article. It became a killer when I increased the distances. -_-

I also tried to improvise my own for a little variety. It mostly takes advantage of the elementary playground near my house. It went something like this yesterday:

*Jogged about a half mile
*Shimmied up a light pole (that garnered a few “wtf” stares… -_-)
*Jogged some more
*Leapt over the school fence back and forth 10 times
*Did 10 dips, followed by 10 upside down situps hanging from a horizontal bar, as well as lifting my legs up to wrap around the pole and back down 5 times
*Climbed on top of horizontal bar (by taking advantage of the vertical poles on the sides, I don’t have the upper body strength to hoist myself up a horizontal pole)
*tightrope walked pole
*jumped down from there twice
*used horizontal bar as monkey bars

…and that was the best I could do. I haven’t gotten it down yet, exactly, but it’s my hope to get it down better, and maybe eventually be able to pull myself up that hor. pole. I have no idea if I’m following the concepts of MovNat properly or not, and I hope I am. I like your idea of functional strength over just developing “show muscles” and the idea of developing a “smart body.” Keep up the good work and I hope one day to be able to train with you! ^_^
#

Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:45 PM

Aaron, no you’re not following MovNat training principles, you’re doing basically “a little of everything” in an exploratory manner which is all good stuff tough, and actually if for some reason the list of moves you’ve described was just what you could afford to do at a given time because of lack of space and time, then it could be called “MovNat” as the method always follow the principle which is to do what you can, where you are, with what you have (Roosevelt, US president).
You have at this stage to be exploratory and opportunist indeed, so keep up with these experiences.
#

[Gregg]

Steve started a MN thread at NEPK, so I invaded it.  x:D

Ahoy, hawaiipk! Prepare to be boarded!   

I'm pretty sure that with a decent knowledge of how human musculature works, conventional (gym-based) workout knowledge, and a little experimentation, you could probably crack Erwan's secrets with little to no problem, especially if a bunch of people sit down and think about it for a while.

For example; any repeated movement will drill that movement into your muscle memory, and as long as there is resistance and it provides a challenge to your muscles, they will grow. You can develop slow-twitch muscles by doing slower exercises, and develop fast-twitch muscles by doing quicker, more explosive exercises.

With that said, you'd probably want a good ratio (1:1) of slow-twitch muscle exercises and fast-twitch muscle exercises. I'm assuming it's beneficial, in the case of MovNat, to utilize a full-body exercise in order to train all of your body's muscles to be used to being worn out and to drill them in moving together. But, you'd need plenty of rest (1 full day of recovery at least) for every 1 or 2 days you train, depending on intensity.

Also, keep moving. If you do enough resistance training and keep the intensity high, it counts as cardio as well as resistance training...increase your endurance, burn fat and build muscle all at once! Maintaining motion will develop great endurance, push your body past its strength limits, and give you an absolutely killer workout in 20 or 30 minutes.

You should think of movements that come naturally to people: running, pushing, crawling, jumping, throwing, catching, etc, and find ways to incorporate these into a multi-part exercise. For example, you could do an explosive sit-up, push a ball, rock, or another heavy object away from your chest as if you're going to throw it (but still hold onto it), drop the rock and flip onto your chest, bang out a pushup or a few, segue into a side plank, turn that into a bridge (if you have the flexibility), and then flop on your back again for another rep.

Or you could begin crawling with your chest relatively high off the ground and after 5 "steps", drop the height so you're closer to the ground, take another 5 "steps", drop so your belly is brushing the grass, take another 5 "steps", and then commando crawl for 5 steps, then repeat. If you're feeling adventurous, you could all of a sudden rise and bust out a few burpees or rise by doing a jump squat, roll when you land, and then continue your crawling.

The rationale for this thinking is that in a survival situation, you're not going to be doing chest-flys or even just running in a straight line. You're probably going to need to run, crawl, jump, roll, climb, maintain balance and hold positions for half an hour or so without rest. Sure, you might even have to throw things, catch objects, or defend yourself. Just incorporate a ton of different motions into a non-stop workout and go from there. If you're training as a group and one person's trying to climb onto a bar suspended in the air, the rest of you could do a multi-stage workout while waiting for your turn.

So, keep moving, do multi-part exercises, and stick to movements that you'd be doing in a survival situation. That's my assumption.

EDIT: Gregg, I just saw your MovNat workout breakdown in another thread...pretty good! I'll be stealing some of that (with proper attribution of credit).

[Gregg]

http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2009/01/erwan-le-corre.html
An interview with Erwan.
--- --- --- ---

from http://www.cannovan.com/

I was fortunate enough to attend a MovNat Clinic in London last Saturday with Erwan Le Corre. It was a fantastic experience and I highly recommend that anybody who is interested in fitness to attend one of his courses if they have the opportunity.

Erwan was assisted by MovNat certified coach Colin Holding. There was a group of 10 of us and the clinic started at 9:30am and finished at approx 6:30pm. It was a long hot sunny day and Erwan crammed as much MovNat training as he could in the time available - however, by the end of it I was still inspired to learn more. The training took place at various areas of Hampstead Heath park, which considering we were in London was an ideal location for an introduction to MovNat.

For the first hour or so Erwan talked about MovNat – what it is, what natural movement is and talking about different types of training e.g. CrossFit, Yoga, specialising in sports, etc.

He then took us through a MovNat warm up consisting of: walking then running forwards, backwards & sideways. Moving onto walking in a crouched position, getting as low as possible. Moving on all 4’s forwards, backwards & sideways. Squatting & standing up, kneeling with attention to the flexibility of ankles & knees. Forward rolls, sideways rolls & backwards rolls then ending with some light sparring. I’d never done a warm up like it before – completely different to what you’re taught in a commercial gym. It wasn’t easy, but it was fun.

For the rest of the day Erwan demonstrated and had us practice some of the key movements in MovNat:

    * Walking
    * Running
    * Jumping
    * Balancing
    * Walking on all fours
    * Climbing
    * Lifting
    * Carrying
    * Throwing
    * Catching
    * Defending


Unfortunately, there wasn’t enough time to learn about the twelfth MovNat key movement – Swimming - but I was pretty tired by then, after trying out all the other movements, so probably best that we left swimming for another day.....

The training ended with Erwan explaining how to combine different MovNat key movements into a combination that you could use for a workout. Each of us created our own combo and went through a number of circuits. Mine consisted of walking along some fallen tree branches (balance), jumping between logs, vaulting a fallen tree, running to another tree and climbing one of its branches - repeating this approx 5 times. It was quite tough, especially climbing the tree branch (similar to doing a muscle up).

Erwan then created another combination for the whole group - a workout consisting of running, vaulting a fallen tree, moving on all fours & crawling under some fallen branches, jumping between small logs, running, then climbing along a rope between two trees, then running back to the start – repeated as many times as possible in 10 minutes. By this time I was exhausted, but it was a great example of how you can use the environment around you for a really good workout.

The Frenchman Erwan speaks perfect English and is an excellent coach. He had recently returned from Tanzania in Africa and had been ill for a few days before the MovNat clinic – he said he wasn’t sure what was wrong with him – some tropical bug perhaps?? But he had fasted for a couple of days and was determined to turn up for the clinic.

It was only a few days later that I heard Erwan had actually been very ill after the clinic – he ended up in hospital the next day & was treated for malaria. He was admitted into hospital for tropical diseases for several days. Last I heard he has been let out, which is good news – hopefully he will make a full recovery.

He had mentioned to the group that he was not feeling 100%, and with hindsight it was remarkable that he was able to complete a full days coaching – talking & demonstrating for hours. A testament to his high levels of fitness.

This one day MovNat course has inspired me to learn more. Hopefully I will be able to attend a MovNat seminar later this year or early in 2010. There was only so much that Erwan could teach in one day, and only so much information that I was able to absorb in one day, so a week long seminar would be great - I can’t wait....

[Gregg]

MovNat training: He has 2 levels - "Awakening", for people who aren't in shape, and "Expansion". It's interesting to see what he considers the requirements. $1290 for 5 days of living in a tent? You've got to be kidding. And this isn't even Cert... and MovNat Cert level 1... A MovNat level 1 certification will enable you to initiate any beginner to the practice of Natural Movement and help the “Zoo human” reconnect to their True Nature! I thought I was already doing that. For free.

‘Expansion’ Program: August 25th to the 29th OR September 8th to the 12th

You are physically active and consider yourself fit to very fit and want to expand your training regimen and make it more functional and real.

You are looking for a comprehensive training system designed to prepare you to real-world challenges and acquire practical and adaptive movement skills.

By attending this course, you will have the opportunity to optimize, broaden and equalize your natural movement skills and to experience the primal and natural feel of the MovNat practice.

Self-assessment for this course:
You can run 10 kilometers (a 10k) in under 50 minutes easily (an 8 minute mile pace)
You can easily perform 10 explosive pull-ups in a row
You can deadlift more than your own bodyweight
You can comfortably swim freestyle and backstroke
You have some martial art experience
You have some barefoot experience
You don’t have injuries to work around
You can hold your breath at least 1?30?
You don’t suffer from vertigo
You have no serious health issues

[Gregg]

Decided to do some catch up with the reading.

"Aaron Brown
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Hiya! --- EDITED OUT THE LONG AARON BROWN/ ERWAN LECORRE QUOTE

I am not sure why he says that is not following the training principles of the MovNat. It seems to me hes teaching MovNat karate style (yu have to stand like this, put your hand here etc)

 I understand he wants people to follow a main idea, but for what I understand MovNat is about, well, natural movement, natural human skills. Why is he trying to set that into an specified way of doing it?

Enough reading, going for a run with roxy!!!

Here's what I understand:

0: There's working out in ways that aren't functional. Sit-ups, bench press, flips...

1: There's moving naturally, exploring, trying things.

2: There's Methode Naturelle, Hebert's system. You move naturally, or you plan out what you're going to do. You try to include as many of the 8-10 elements, and train chaining these elements without any significant rest. There are 12 tests so you can see how you measure against yourself, what progress you are making, and have goals to shoot for. It's a focused version of #1 - "Be strong to be useful."

3: There's MovNat^tm which is Erwan's secret training method. It's an update and revision of #2. He added martial arts and love for nature, and took out Hebert's slogan and replaced it with "Explore your true nature"^tm...

So now there are a couple problems. Erwan hasn't said what MovNat^tm is. He's said what it ISN'T: It isn't 0. It isn't 1. It isn't 2.

Here's why:
0 isn't functional. MovNat is based on 12 functional exercises.
1 is basically random and unstructured.
2 is focused on getting results, and is structured. However, it's 100 years old, and was written before oriental martial arts became popular. So some of it is out of date. Also, it seems that somebody "owns" MN, and doesn't want to update it, or let other people update it.

SO:
0+1 = HIPK video, because it has movements that aren't functional, and the training was basically unstructured, taking advantage of the surroundings, but not chaining or combining them in the most effective way [sprints combined with power moves].

1+2 = my training, because while I'm influenced by MN, I also adjust my workout by whatever I find. I PLAN to use all the elements, but I don't always chain them in the most effective ways, and I'll often skip the Defense, because it feels stupid doing it alone.

My other problem is with Erwan's philosophy. "Find your true nature."^tm Me, me, me. It's selfish, pointless, and in the long run, counter-productive. If a group of people are trained by MN, they learn to look for ways to help each other. In MovNat, you're on your own.

[Gregg]

I believe Erwan commented that Aaron's training wasn't MovNat because Aaron was doing reps of one exercise, and then moving on to another exercise altogether. From what I can see, Erwan stresses MovNat as a system where you'll do something like run for a while, jump over some obstacles along the way, shimmy up a tree, throw some rocks around and then do combative training for a few minutes, followed by lifting a heavy log and finally beginning to run again while carrying a heavy rock that you will discard a minute into the run.

Then repeat, or mix up the exercises. Maybe quadrupedal movement across a log next time, followed by a swim.

So, no real "reps;" just flowing through whatever's in your environment. Of course, training for functional movements such as muscle ups, balancing, quadrupedal movement, throwing and lifting rocks would help if you eventually progress to a true MN workout.

I thought self defense was part of the original NM.

Defense is one of the 8, 10, or 12 basics... I don't do it much, because I don't like throwing shadow punches, and I train by myself 99% of the time. I may tie a sandbag to a tree one of these days. I've used banana trees as targets, but I feel sad when they "bleed".

Some of the basic karate kicks look like they're in the book - roundhouse, side, and front... but the hands look like all Euro boxing moves. The grappling looks mostly Euro, except some of the pics when they're in clothes looks like judo. I'm guessing karate and judo were "brand new" in 1912.

Steve... I feel like I answered this already, but maybe in the other thread? Yeah. Serious deja vu.

It's cause Aaron was just doing whatever he could with what was around. That's a good beginning, but as you start to train, you may need something slightly more structured... to work on weak points and overcome plateaus.

You keep moving the whole time, but that doesn't mean you can't loop around and repeat. For example, in the article, one of the exercises was passing rocks from one guy to the next. The guys were in a circle. Erwan added rocks until there were 5 rocks for 7 or 8 guys. They did that for a while. Then they moved on to running/ tossing driftwood.

I see at least 3 different methods of training:
1. Free exploration, which you do at all times.
2. Mini obstacles, where you combine 50m sprints with one of the other exercises, perhaps in 1 or 2 ways. You vary the intensity in order to give yourself more of a challenge, or to catch your breath. You cycle through the different "stations" non-stop, for at least 20 minutes.
3. Major obstacles. This is like his final test - he has a course of 5 [to 10] minutes, with specially designed and planned obstacles. Your goal is to flow through the course 4 [or 2] times in 20 minutes.

[Gregg]

Sigh... "MovNat basic training tips: it will be delayed as I am extremely busy at the moment (1-2 weeks) thanks for your understanding and patience."

http://steelicarus.vox.com/library/post/movnat-london-seminar---review.html?_c=feed-atom

Another blog about his London seminar. Not so much new info.

Erwan just hooked up with Frank Forencich "Exuberant Animal". What... has he been reading our forums? Like he says, they're a good fit. Erwan's a bit more at the extreme end, and Frank is more playful and social.

Although... Erwan DID joke about selling MovNat^tm leopard print loincloths, and looking for a supplier of wooden clubs.

Today Erwan posted about the philosophy of MovNat. I still think he's secretly reading our forums

I understand "Explore Your True Nature". I understand why he wants to get people moving. I feel better when I'm able to get outside and play.

I wish he had written about the basic training tips. It would have been more useful. Oh wait -- "be useful" -- that's Methode Naturelle, not MovNat. LOL

Erwan, I'm just teasing, ok? I do REALLY want to read your basic training tips.

Where is the link to the philosophy he wrote?

http://movnat.com/archives/486

I love you 

[Gregg]

Just in case you missed it on the Indiana "Methode Naturelle v. Weights" thread. Mostly so I don't have to go searching for it in 2 years

As has been pointed out this is a false dichotomy. Methode Naturelle involves weights, specificially lifting, throwing, catching and carrying them, it patently ridiculous to consider a handsatnd push up more natural then lifting something heavy overhead which were our ancestors more likely to need to do?

Furthermore to the best of my knowledge George Heberts training involved designed objects like barbells as much as it did natural found objects like logs and rocks.

Before you start trying to argue for the superiority of Methode Naturelle you might want to research it a bit more.

Now in reality the specific way that Methode naturelle used weights is probably inferior to more modern methods of weight training notice I say weight training not body building, body building muscle isolation and Machines are completely useless athletically and not part of this debate. Weight training is the use of barbells dumbells and other similar training devices to produce progressive overload of the body to force physiological adaptions to increased strength, power, stamina etc.

Modern studies show you can not gain strength as effectively in fatigued state as when rested, the requirement for continous work in methode naturelle is contrary to the way our bodies work and the best methods for developing strength that have sense been developed.

Methode Naturelle was good system back then, and the basic insight of training in way derived from the way our bodies have been adapted by the natural world around us is as true now as it was then but MN is not the perfect system we should be trying to understand the principles of good physical practice in general and looking at what has made athletes succesfull in sports in general. A big part of that is progressive scaled weight trained with plate loaded barbells and dumbells using major natural compound movement patterns like the squat, deadlift and press.

Finally I have had the oppurtonity to train with Erwan when he was trying to ressurect Methode Naturelle, and when he was formulating his own approach and had many discussions with him as he made the transition. He is very clear if you have not trained with him directly you are not training his MovNat and he has trademarked the name for the very purpose that he can make that distinction. MovNat is his unless your qualified to train with his system you should not claim that is what you are doing.

My opinion is simple, squat, deadlift, and press using barbells for safety and scalability and rocks, logs, and training partners for the development of broad functional capacity, if you find weight training boring your doing it wrong.

  Hebert's "Practical Guide to Physical Education" [2nd ed] shows them lifting large metal "bricks" - probably the 40kg weights they used for testing. The pics also show old style dumbbells with the black iron spheres on each end, light and heavy bags, ladders, and people.

  The throwing pics show 7.25 kg shot put, large and small rocks, ropes, and discus.

Right. Lifting and throwing were in the early part of Hebert's workout, right after the warm-up. There were 3 major two-hand lifts: developpe [press], jete [jerk], and arrache [snatch]. For the heavy bag, they show a combination of deadlift, plus using leverage to get it up on the legs, and over the shoulder. So those lifts would fit right in at CrossFit. 

Erwan said he'd be coming out with pointers on developing a MovNat^tm workout. However, he's also working on a book, and has his seminars this summer, which I can't afford to go to

So until then... here are some training tips from his Twitter feed.

  Training tip: you don't always need to be in nature to move naturally. Do what you can, where you are, with what you have. Be opportunist! 3:15 PM May 25th from web
  Training tip: invest more attention in your inner sensations. It is not just what you do on the outside, it is how it feels in the inside. 7:06 AM May 25th from web
  Training tip: forget the classic muscle isolation and body parts approach. Go for natural movement patterns. Move the primal way. Explore. 2:53 AM May 24th from web
  Training tip: change your approach first. If you go on with a conventional approach, you will end up with the same conventional experience. 7:24 AM May 23rd from web

[Gregg]

Again - from the other thread - sigh...

To build strength, or increase stamina, the best methods are those which take into account lessons learned from modern science.  High-intensity interval training, Tabata and barbell weight training (compound & Olympic lifts) are the best ways to increase the body's abilities.  This type of training is also very enjoyable to some people, including me.

Olympic lifts are Clean/Jerk and Snatch. [Used to also include Clean/Press but wiki says it was discontinued because it was difficult to judge proper form]. MN lifts are... press, jerk and snatch. No problem there.

Tabata [20 sec work, 10 sec rest [x8]]. MN = no significant rests... instead alternate with a derivative exercise - like walking on the 'points' of the feet. So you could lift for 20 sec, walk a 15 m loop, and repeat that [x8].

  A HIIT session consists of a warm up period of exercise, followed by six to ten repetitions of high intensity exercise, separated by medium intensity exercise, and ending with a period of cool down exercise.
  A MN session consists of a warm up period, exercise of increasing intensity, alternating with low or medium level exercise, and ending with a period of cool down exercise [walking] and breathing exercises.

[At least in theory]

Thanks for reminding me of Tabatas and HIIT. I was doing interval training, but lately I've been doing some longer distance slower beach runs, because it feels good, and reduces my stress. I've noticed that my running speed and jumping heights and distances suffered last month. For August I'll try throwing in more of the short intervals.

[Gregg]

Again from the other thread. I wish they'd move it over here...

The Methode Naturelle principle of relative rest is great for certain types of training but was not based on any strong logic or deeply practical reason as far as I can tell, that just the way Hebert wanted it to be done. The best studies plus the experience of the best strength coaches through the years to show for maximal strength and power activity full recovery is neccesary and that means rest, and rest means rest like laying on your back rest. If want get moderately strong or have have a good conditioning effect and get your work out done fast, accesory drills, super setting, relative rest are all great, if you want true maximal strength and speed adaptions you need to rest fully.

BTW here is great article on tabatas http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/effects-of-moderate-intensity-endurance-and-high-intensity-intermittent-training-on-anaerobic-capacity-and-vo2-max.html

There is no reason to think 20 and 10 is magic, there are lots of ways to play with intervals don't limit yourself to one interval ratio because its a big fad.

Rafe - that's a great article on Tabatas. [by Lyle McDonald]

Over a 6 week period: On stationary bike:

Control group: 10 minute warm-up + 60 minutes at 70% VO2 max x 5 days/ week. [350 min work/ week]
Tabata group: 10 minute warm-up + (20 sec at 170% !! + 10 sec rest)x8 x 4 days/week plus
                    10 minute warm-up + 30 minutes at 70% + 4 sets of Tabata. [98 min work/ week]

Results: Control group - 9.6% increase in VO2 max, basically no anaerobic improvement
            Tabata group - 11.6% increase in VO2 max, 28% increase in anaerobic, but most in the first 4 weeks.
            They were in worse shape than the control group the entire study = started at 92%, finished at 96%

"High-intensity interval training and the Tabata protocol specifically are one tool in the toolbox but anybody proclaiming that intervals can do everything that anyone ever needs to do is cracked. That’s on top of the fact that 99% of people who claim to be doing ‘Tabatas’ aren’t doing anything of the sort."

"Because 8 sets of 20″ hard/10″ easy is NOT the Tabata protocol and body-weight stuff or the other stuff that is often suggested simply cannot achieve the workload of 170% VO2 max that this study used.  It may be challenging and such but the Tabata protocol it ain’t."

Lyle was implying there was basically no difference between the 2 groups. I think this is a faulty conclusion, because he wanted to show there was no difference.

What are the REAL results?
Control group = 9.6% increase in VO2 max, no increase in anaerobic.
Tabata group = 11.6% increase in VO2 max, 28% increase in anaerobic IN 28% OF THE TIME!

If anything, this is a huge advertisement IN FAVOR of doing real [170%] Tabata training. To me, being stuck on a stationary bike in a gym for 6 weeks would be HELL!

I'm still learning about MN. I learn something new every day. For August, I'm going to try to run Tabata sprints. We'll see at the end of the month the improvement in my 100 m, 500 m, and 1500 m times.

Since I started training MN, my 100 went from 15 to 15.1 to 16.3 to 15.56  . My 500 went from 1:57 to 1:35 to 1:49 to 1:43  . My 1500 went from 6:35 to 5:56 to 6:05 to [testing today]. What doesn't show is that now I can run 6 miles at a good pace, and still sprint and kong a picnic table at the end. 

I know 20/ 10 isn't a magic number. I've been doing more distance, or fast runs, but not sprints. The few "sprints" I did this month were usually 60m or so, with a 60m jog or some other fairly long recovery. They obviously didn't help much.

[Ozzi]

Ill suggest Going natural for a man board on its on section, yeah?

[Gregg]

Right now it's flying barely under the radar. It's here, and some people know it. Pilou, Indiana thread, New England PK. Some other people. But nobody's giving me a hard time about it.

It's giving me just the time I need to play catch up, and bring the rest of HIpk along... if only a bit. Anybody who's interested in this kine stuffs is going to see it eventually.

BionicGrape is scanning the missing pages for me. I should be able to fill that in pretty soon. Rafe from WAPK and Beretta from SFPK are giving me some interesting ideas.

[Ozzi]

I need to catch up reading all this stuff my man.