Author Topic: Workout Routine Help  (Read 2731 times)

Offline Brett Robert

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Workout Routine Help
« on: July 07, 2009, 09:33:47 PM »
Hey everyone, I'd like some advice and feedback from our "local" experts about my weekly exercise routine.

As for stats, I'm 29, 5'9", 165 lbs.

I work full time, and I'm in school full time too, though it's summer break right now.  Time is limited and of the essence.  Training is my favorite thing, but I have to back burner it sometimes.  After an experiment away from the weight room, testing the PK Gens' suggestions/theories, I've decided I need to be lifting regularly again to get the results I want from parkour.  (As well as the feeling of being strong.)

Also, my job is stressful and sometimes incredibly physical, in short bursts.  I work with emotionally disturbed and special needs kids, sometimes we have to respond to violence.

Anyway, here's my routine, then the questions.

Monday
Work
Modern Dance Class 2-3 hours, includes Pilates-based warmup.
Strength Training, Upper Body Push:
-Bench Press 5 X 5 (Currently at 185 lbs, moving to 190 next week)
-Overhead Press (standing) 5 X 5 (Still testing to find a good weight for this: 40 lb DBs or 90+ on the bar)

Tuesday
Work
Parkour ~2 hours

Wednesday
Work
Modern Dance (same as Monday)
Strength Training, Legs:
-Power Cleans 5 X 5 (This is a new skill for me, so I'm working 3 X 10 @ 89 lbs right now)
-Squat 5 X 5 (I've always avoided these, so I'm at relatively low weight: 215 lbs)
-Dead Lifts 5 X 5 (See above for excuses for why I'm at 185)

Thursday
Work
Rest or Parkour, sometimes Open Gym (flips, rings, planche, etc.)

Friday
Work
Rest

Saturday
No work
Open day, could add strength, but would probably miss it frequently.
Sometimes I do 4+ hours of PK on Saturdays, sometimes I rest, sometimes I hike or swim or whatever.

Sunday
No work
Parkour 2-6 hours.  This is my big parkour day, I like to be rested and fresh for it.

So my questions are:
1) I'd like to get a belt & chain for weighted pull-ups, until then what are two good pull exercises?  Lat pulls?  Seated row?  Pull-ups?  Help!

2) When should I add static hold exercises like planche progression and front & back lever?  Should I do these everyday here and there, whenever I can, like I do with handstands, or target them to land on specific days (i.e. push, pull, leg)?

3) Any other suggestions or points?

As I'm a bit older, I'm committed to only working each "muscle group" once a week with weights. 

Oh yeah, running.  Sometimes I run.  I've run a mile in less than 6 minutes in the last year.  I've run as much as 15 miles.  I love interval training.  I'm not undisciplined with running, I just don't have time for everything I'd like to train and a social life, and writing papers, etc, etc.  I really love running, sometimes I run 3+ miles during parkour training, but right now, I'm not really tracking it, or going out just to run.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this, I hope I was thorough enough without boring you to death.  I really appreciate the quality of advice on this forum.



Offline Jimmy Lee

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 10:07:21 PM »
1) pull-up, L pull-up, frenchies, assisted OAC or OAC negative, front lever pull-up, front lever pull.
2) Before or after the regular workout. 60 sec of appropriate PL, FL, and/or BL variation 3-4 times a week.
3) Do weighted dips when you get a belt and chain. Also work on HSPU and HS press.
Some of the weight exercises can decrease your flexibility significantly so be wary.
You get used to it.

Offline Brett Robert

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 10:31:47 PM »
Thanks Jimmy!

1)  All good suggestions, but I'm looking more for weighted exercises to build strength rather than endurance.  I'll include pull ups and all variations anyway, and F & B lever.
2) Gotcha.
3) I'm not sure when and where I'd work in weighted dips.  On push days I leave the house at 7:30 AM for work and I'm finishing my lifts in the gym at 10 PM or so.  At that time, I'm too exhausted for much more than 2 or 3 exercises.  I know they're a great exercise, but I don't have that many hours a week to devote to strength training.  I was thinking I will try to have two exercises I always do on push and pull days and then rotate in different things for fun and variety as a third exercise when I'm up to it.

As far as flexibility, I stretch a lot post-workout and also in my dance classes, and I'm naturally very flexible.  As of last night I can once again do the side splits while suspended between objects, though I need to work on balancing in that position and strengthening that hold.  If I lose a little bit of flexibility, I can live with that.

Offline Shae Perkins

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 02:01:15 PM »
1.) I do not know too terrible much about weighted exercises. Therefor I will not even pretend to and possibly give you misguided information.

2.) I am going to have to disagree with senor Jimmy. In my opinion you should do skill training only at the beginning of your training sessions after the warm up. That way you have the biggest abundance of energy to focus on the skill. Fatigue can lead to bad form can lead to injury.

Buuuuuut... I am definitely an advocate of synaptic facilitation, or "greasing the groove" (GTG for short). Here's a tasty little article you could nibble on.
http://humanmachine.wordpress.com/2007/06/22/grease-the-groove-for-strength/

Basically it's doing 60-80% intensity of any given exercise all through out the day. I like to think this is how I came to be able to bust OAC/OAP and front levers pretty much whenever I want. I worked them little by little all through day. I started nailing FL's after 2 weeks to a month, and OAC/OAP's after only 3 weeks (prior bouldering experience ;D ). So you could, periodically throughout the day, whenever you feel fresh, work on them, as you said you were doing.

3.) Pointers? Well, depending on your goals and/or schedule you could look into bouldering..? Great for a powerful and endurable set of pythons in my opinion... Also you can never be too good at muscle ups! I suggest weighted pistols as a great unilateral lower body exercise if you practice good form. L-sits are great too...


Well, I hope I can be of some assistance. I know some of my info was sporadic hehe :)

EDIT-
Some of the weight exercises can decrease your flexibility significantly so be wary.

Really? Could you please expand on this... I am intrigued! Because most of the info I am finding on that topic states...the exact opposite...
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/weight-training-flexible.html

You can research it for yourself  :D
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 02:12:04 PM by Shae Perkins »
This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)

Offline Brett Robert

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 03:45:20 PM »
Would planche & levers be considered skills?  As holds, I'd think of them as exercises.  I can see OAC as a skill, though.

Thanks Shae.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 05:55:42 PM »
oh jeez

Replying here is going to take a long time.

Think you can IM me on phreaknite (AIM) or phreaknite@hotmail.com (msn) or csalvato@gmail.com (gchat)??
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Offline Shae Perkins

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 06:09:48 PM »
Would planche & levers be considered skills?  As holds, I'd think of them as exercises.  I can see OAC as a skill, though.

Thanks Shae.

Personally I would consider them as skills because brute force alone is not going to do you much- you have to train specifically for these movements. Though this is just my take on the matter. I'm not 100% sure when a something is considered a skill.
This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)

Offline Spencer B

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 06:28:15 PM »
oh jeez

Replying here is going to take a long time.

Think you can IM me on phreaknite (AIM) or phreaknite@hotmail.com (msn) or csalvato@gmail.com (gchat)??

This made me laugh quite a bit. If it helps I know how you feel in terms of writing out essay long posts trying to help someone out with fitness info... But then I learned a lot of what I know from you guys and your essay long posts, so it does help...
www.cracked.com
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There are times when you want to break down and rage at the heavens. Don't. Stay calm, and let the emotions flood in, accept them and then rise above them. Never dwell. Don't fear or worry. Anything worth thinking about is worth talking about. And... Good luck.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 06:32:00 PM »
ugh i guess i will save this as a project for tomorrow.. >.<
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Offline Shae Perkins

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 06:33:40 PM »
I actually look forward to the essays!
This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)

Offline Spencer B

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 06:51:16 PM »
I actually look forward to the essays!

I do too. It's like school but awesome!


ugh i guess i will save this as a project for tomorrow.. >.<

It's probably stuff we've heard many times before so there is no real need to actually make a giant essay if you don't think it would help more.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 07:40:24 PM »
its not just an essay - i actually have to think about it :P
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Offline Spencer B

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 08:27:56 PM »
its not just an essay - i actually have to think about it :P

Okay... Short Essay like length... Happy?  ::)
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There are times when you want to break down and rage at the heavens. Don't. Stay calm, and let the emotions flood in, accept them and then rise above them. Never dwell. Don't fear or worry. Anything worth thinking about is worth talking about. And... Good luck.

Offline Brett Robert

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 09:15:13 PM »
Ha ha, thanks guys.

To make it worse, I didn't give any goals.  Pretty much because I'm generally apprehensive about setting specific goals.

Here's some skill goals:
1) Land 3 back-tucks in a row on flat ground by the end of the year

2) Get that big (12-13'?) wall at UC Berkeley 3 times consecutively by the end of the year (Done it twice in a day before, but 3 times in a row, with little rest would be a good challenge)

3) Work on longer parkour runs through the woods without stopping.  Get to 10 minutes(?) continuos running parkour through challenging terrain, with obstacles.

4) Get 6 consecutive kipping muscle ups on bar by the end of summer (9/1).  Currently at 4.  I got dead hangs before kipping m/u's because I kip poorly.  (Power cleans were recommended to me to improve kipping.) (Long term goal is to get 10)

5) Improve broad jump from 8'1" to 8'6".  I don't know what a good time frame for this goal would be.

Strength goals:
1) Bench: 200 lbs 5 X 5 by the end of the year (185 currently)

2) Deadlift: 300 lbs 1 RM.  I don't know when I should reasonably try to make this by.

3) Squat: 300 lbs 1 RM.  Same as above for timeline.

As far as goals, I think those are reasonable.

If you need/want more info, here's my training log on SFPK.  I started it about a year ago, so it's long and varied.  But it will give you an idea of how I train (hard, lots of pk, swimming, running, outdoor, dancing, etc., etc.)

Anyway, once again I really appreciate all the help, and I don't mind waiting for good advice.  Thanks guys.

Offline Spencer B

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 07:39:46 AM »
On my! No overhead press...
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There are times when you want to break down and rage at the heavens. Don't. Stay calm, and let the emotions flood in, accept them and then rise above them. Never dwell. Don't fear or worry. Anything worth thinking about is worth talking about. And... Good luck.

Offline Shae Perkins

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 10:10:05 AM »
This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 12:46:41 PM »
I work full time, and I'm in school full time too, though it's summer break right now.  Time is limited and of the essence.  Training is my favorite thing, but I have to back burner it sometimes.  After an experiment away from the weight room, testing the PK Gens' suggestions/theories, I've decided I need to be lifting regularly again to get the results I want from parkour.  (As well as the feeling of being strong.)

I am glad that more people are catching on that PK Gens' workouts are kind of...bullshit.

Also, my job is stressful and sometimes incredibly physical, in short bursts.  I work with emotionally disturbed and special needs kids, sometimes we have to respond to violence.

If you are going to go heavy on lifting (as I will recommend below) then you will need to keep chronic stress levels in mind as this will hurt performance some days.  It is something to keep in mind because you don't want to get discouraged by bad performance especially if it was caused by a bout of high stress a day or two prior.

Anyway, here's my routine, then the questions.

Knowing your existing routne is useful in that I now know when you have classes/obligations.  What you were doing previously is not useful for now, but thanks for posting it.  It at least helps me to identify some misconceptions you have that can be fixed now.

1) I'd like to get a belt & chain for weighted pull-ups, until then what are two good pull exercises?  Lat pulls?  Seated row?  Pull-ups?  Help!

There are many ways to scale up pullups without weight.  Lat pulldowns and seated row are not exercises I would prescribe to...well, anyone who isn't injured or EXTREMELY weak.

My site has an article on this that goes over alternative pullups as well as other pulling goals.

You may want to consider front lever progressoin pullups, L pull-ups, OAC variations, ice cream makers, front lever pulls, yewkis or Inverted Hang to Hang as slow and controlled as possible while maintaining straight body.

2) When should I add static hold exercises like planche progression and front & back lever?  Should I do these everyday here and there, whenever I can, like I do with handstands, or target them to land on specific days (i.e. push, pull, leg)?

Static holds are very intense techniques.  Despite some other advice here, they should only be done as part of high intensity strength work -- preferably before any dynamic work while the muscles are still fresh and able to learn proper synchronization/activation to maintain the hold.

Doing the holds more frequently is going to be better but when you incorporate weight lifting and other gymnastics movements into the mix you need to be careful with recovery - especially at age 29 (compared to, lets say, a 6 year old or 16 year old).  Listening to your body is going to be crucial and doing too little will be more beneficial than doing too much, hands down.

As I'm a bit older, I'm committed to only working each "muscle group" once a week with weights.

Entirely unnecessary no matter what your age.

Oh yeah, running.  Sometimes I run.  I've run a mile in less than 6 minutes in the last year.  I've run as much as 15 miles.  I love interval training.  I'm not undisciplined with running, I just don't have time for everything I'd like to train and a social life, and writing papers, etc, etc.  I really love running, sometimes I run 3+ miles during parkour training, but right now, I'm not really tracking it, or going out just to run.

That's fine, it can still fit into your lifestyle.....now on to your goals which were included in a different post...let's identify what aspect of your fitness needs to be developed to achieve each of these goals:

1) Land 3 back-tucks in a row on flat ground by the end of the year

Power - powerful hip extension (i.e. improve jumping capability) to ensure the ability to jump high and land in full extension for an easy set into the next back tuck.
Technique - this requires a lot of skill work...drilling back tucks over and over to get the proper technique. 

In short, you will need to focus on more "lower intensity" backflip work to nail this goal in addition to the "higher intensity" power development (which entails things like cleans, snatches, maximal jump training, plyos, etc.)


2) Get that big (12-13'?) wall at UC Berkeley 3 times consecutively by the end of the year (Done it twice in a day before, but 3 times in a row, with little rest would be a good challenge)

Power - powerful hip extension (i.e. improve jumping capability) to ensure the ability to jump high and rebound off of the wall in your wall run.
Reactability - You need to train your muscles to react to the force of the foot-plant on the wall optimally for increased power off of the wall.
Technique - this would come a bit faster with a lot of skill work...drilling the run regularly to measure progress and practice specifically for what you are training.

In short, you will need to focus on more "lower intensity" wallrun work to nail this goal in addition to the "higher intensity" power development (which entails things like cleans, snatches, maximal jump training, plyos, etc.) as well as Plyometrics to train the muscle reaction you are looking for in wall runs.


3) Work on longer parkour runs through the woods without stopping.  Get to 10 minutes(?) continuos running parkour through challenging terrain, with obstacles.

Metabolic Conditioning.

Short duration (10-20 minute) bouts of exercise with minimal rest similar to a CrossFit workout will help you achieve this level of metabolic conditioning easily.


4) Get 6 consecutive kipping muscle ups on bar by the end of summer (9/1).  Currently at 4.  I got dead hangs before kipping m/u's because I kip poorly.  (Power cleans were recommended to me to improve kipping.) (Long term goal is to get 10)

Cleans won't really help your kipping too much.  They will help the amount of POWER you can generate with your kip but you really should learn better kipping technique.  Even those who are horribly untrained can learn kipping pullups well enough to get at least a hop off the bar (I can kip up high enough to clearly clap in front of my chest and, oftentimes, high enough to clap behind my back....Steve can pull that high and clap on his thighs in L position without even kipping O.o)

Back to the point at hand:

Technique - Need to practice your kipping from the ground up.
Power - Explosive pulling work is necessary here to supplement the kip.

In short, you need to practice kipping pullups and train weighted and/or unweighted pullups explosively...sternum or abs to bar instead of chin to bar.


5) Improve broad jump from 8'1" to 8'6".  I don't know what a good time frame for this goal would be.

Power - Explosive hip extension ... again.
Technique - Must practice proper jumping technique to hit this goal.


1) Bench: 200 lbs 5 X 5 by the end of the year (185 currently)

Bench - linear progression.


2) Deadlift: 300 lbs 1 RM.  I don't know when I should reasonably try to make this by.

Deadlift - linear progression. (This skill will help your hip extension for those skills listed above.)

3) Squat: 300 lbs 1 RM.  Same as above for timeline.

Squat - linear progression. (This still will help your hip extension for those skills listed above).


---------------------------------

Holy balls this is long...

I would suggest, based on your schedule and lifestyle, that you have MWF as strength days and TRSu as "active rest" or "technique days".  Saturday can be full-on rest...drink a beer or two and read a book or something.  PK would be fine but remember to keep it light at least two or three days a week, depending on how you feel.

Ok...back to the task at hand.  Let us go back and look at the list we compiled.

Techniques
- Lower Intensity
Backtuck Technique - Done at open gym or on parkour days. (TRSu)
Wall Run Technique - Done on Parkour Days (TRSu)
Kipping Technique - Done on any day that it fits in best for you...probably best as a warmup before pullups work on str. days
Jumping Technique - Done on any day that it fits best for you...probably best as part of PK training.

Strength and Conditioning
Metabolic Conditioning - Done on Strength Days (MWF).  Done after strength work limited to 5-20 minute bouts.
Plyometrics - Done on Strength Days (MWF)
Explosive pulling work - Done on strength days (MWF)
Explosive hip extension - Done on strength days (DL, Squat, Plyos, Cleans, Snatches, etc.) (MWF)
Bench - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)
Squat - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)
Deadlift - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)

If it were ME, I would organize the routine like this:
Workout A
Squats
Deadlift
Weighted/Explosive Pullups

Workout B
Squats
Bench
Power Cleans
Weighted/Explosive Dips (will help with the MU goal substantially)

Plyometrics and Metabolic Conditioning can be added in on EITHER day depending on your recovery and what you did that day.  For example, if dance class was really easy and you feel like a champion one Monday, you may want to do a MetCon after your strength work....or Plyos before your strength work.  If dance class was brutal and you just feel like crap then you may want to stick to the just the strength skills that day and not push it too hard.

Every day just alternate the workout.  So Monday would be Workout A, Wed would be B, Fri would be A, the following Monday would be B and so on.  This keeps it somewhat varied but you will have a high frequency on the work you are doing to reinforce maximal strength gains.

I suggest picking either 5x5 or 3x5 (Sets x Reps) and sticking with it on MOST exercises.  I prefer 3x5 because it allows you to load more weight on each work day.  The exception to this is that you shouldn't DL more than 1x5 (3x5 or 5x5 is very stressful and will hinder recovery).  Another exception is that cleans (and all maximal intensity explosive movements) should be done in sets no higher than 3.  If your clean form needs a lot of work you can just replace cleans with plyos...just remember to do plyos first before anything else (and after a warmup, of course).

Every time you go into the gym add weight each time.  For example, maybe the first day you start squats with 100#.  The next time you squat add 10# so that you do 110#.  Keep doing this until 10# jumps are too much -- then drop it to 5# jumps, then 2.5# jumps, then 1# jumps, etc etc.  You can make a lot of progress in this way.  I got up to 295x3x5 within 4 months like this from a sub 150 squat.

All of your technique stuff, including kipping and muscle up stuff can be done on technique days.  Your technique days will likely become less appealing as you get stronger because the strength work will be considerably more taxing....either that or the strength work will take a back seat.  In short, you will have to tone down the amount you are doing sometime in the future...but this routine or similar should work fine for 6-8 weeks.  Remember, every 4-8 weeks you want to take a week off to fully recover...and that is a good opportunity to reevaluate your workout routine and goals.
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Offline Steven Low

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 04:14:10 PM »
2x5/3x5 is better. 5x5 volume (usually ascending sets) is better in intermediate phase. Your strength is more along the lines of novice right now so low volume with linear progression.
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Offline Brett Robert

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 05:33:19 PM »
2x5/3x5 is better. 5x5 volume (usually ascending sets) is better in intermediate phase. Your strength is more along the lines of novice right now so low volume with linear progression.

Haha, ouch!

Chris, thanks!  I have a few questions in response.

I noticed you removed the overhead press from the workout schedule, whereas this was recommended to me by another traceur and Crossfit instructor (Rafe Kelley from WAPK).  Is there a reason why, and should I train HSPU's instead?  (I can get 15 against a wall, but barely 1 or 2 freestanding.)  When would HSPU's fit in?  I'd think workout B or skill days.

1) I'd like to get a belt & chain for weighted pull-ups, until then what are two good pull exercises?  Lat pulls?  Seated row?  Pull-ups?  Help!

There are many ways to scale up pullups without weight.  Lat pulldowns and seated row are not exercises I would prescribe to...well, anyone who isn't injured or EXTREMELY weak.

My site has an article on this that goes over alternative pullups as well as other pulling goals.

You may want to consider front lever progressoin pullups, L pull-ups, OAC variations, ice cream makers, front lever pulls, yewkis or Inverted Hang to Hang as slow and controlled as possible while maintaining straight body.

Alright, all my reading on here has either paid off, or I've become brainwashed by y'all ;) because I was thinking of pull-ups, OAC progression and F & B lever as my pull exercises before I even posted this thread, I just wanted confirmation I guess.  In fact, I've read that article at least twice, as well as Steve's Goal Setting article.  Sorry if I'm asking questions covered in either one. 

(Speaking of reading, I'm going to get Starting Strength with my next paycheck.)

I have to laugh because I always did lat pulls before, and all the dudes working out to get "ripped" (rather than improve ability) at the gym do them all the time.  I really want to add weight pulls as OAC is a long-term (as many years as it takes) goal.
2) When should I add static hold exercises like planche progression and front & back lever?  Should I do these everyday here and there, whenever I can, like I do with handstands, or target them to land on specific days (i.e. push, pull, leg)?

Static holds are very intense techniques.  Despite some other advice here, they should only be done as part of high intensity strength work -- preferably before any dynamic work while the muscles are still fresh and able to learn proper synchronization/activation to maintain the hold.

Doing the holds more frequently is going to be better but when you incorporate weight lifting and other gymnastics movements into the mix you need to be careful with recovery - especially at age 29 (compared to, lets say, a 6 year old or 16 year old).  Listening to your body is going to be crucial and doing too little will be more beneficial than doing too much, hands down.

As I'm a bit older, I'm committed to only working each "muscle group" once a week with weights.

Entirely unnecessary no matter what your age.

As to the static holds, I guess I was thinking of Front & Back Lever as holds.  So, what you're saying is do them as dynamic exercises?  Like this front lever?  And this back lever?

Other static holds I do are flag, L-sit, and handstand (skill or hold?).  I'll add planche work, but I'm confused as to when I should do them.  Skill days (T, Th, Sa, Su), or strength days (M, W, F)?

My comment about working each muscle group once a week was due to the principle I've heard around the gym and online (in books, too?) that as we age we need more recovery time.  I'd be interested in learning more about this principle.  Does Starting Strength cover that kind of thing, or should I look elsewhere?


Ok...back to the task at hand.  Let us go back and look at the list we compiled.

Techniques
- Lower Intensity
Backtuck Technique - Done at open gym or on parkour days. (TRSu)
Wall Run Technique - Done on Parkour Days (TRSu)
Kipping Technique - Done on any day that it fits in best for you...probably best as a warmup before pullups work on str. days
Jumping Technique - Done on any day that it fits best for you...probably best as part of PK training.

Strength and Conditioning
Metabolic Conditioning - Done on Strength Days (MWF).  Done after strength work limited to 5-20 minute bouts.
Plyometrics - Done on Strength Days (MWF)
Explosive pulling work - Done on strength days (MWF)
Explosive hip extension - Done on strength days (DL, Squat, Plyos, Cleans, Snatches, etc.) (MWF)
Bench - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)
Squat - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)
Deadlift - Clearly done on strength days (MWF)

If it were ME, I would organize the routine like this:
Workout A
Squats
Deadlift
Weighted/Explosive Pullups

Workout B
Squats
Bench
Power Cleans
Weighted/Explosive Dips (will help with the MU goal substantially)

Okay, I will follow the above to the best of my ability.  I'll do 3 X 5 (1 X 5 deadlift) and add weight every week.  One problem for me is I'm not sure I have anyone to use as a spotter, I usually just grab someone for the last set.  If I find that going to 3 X 5 means lifting heavier than I'm comfortable lifting without a spotter, I'll drop weight and add sets.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, with deadlift, I'm doing this, not this.  Should I keep doing the bent leg DLs or switch to straight leg?

Chris, Steve, Shae, Spencer: thanks.

Over the years I've learned that in the gym everyone has some fancy idiotic shit they preach, and that just because they're "ripped" doesn't mean they're strong and that just because a program is effective doesn't mean it's the most effective.  I really appreciate you guys and trust your advice.  Thank you, thank you, thank you!

+1's all around!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:41:49 PM by Beretta »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Workout Routine Help
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 06:09:02 PM »
I noticed you removed the overhead press from the workout schedule, whereas this was recommended to me by another traceur and Crossfit instructor (Rafe Kelley from WAPK).  Is there a reason why, and should I train HSPU's instead?  (I can get 15 against a wall, but barely 1 or 2 freestanding.)  When would HSPU's fit in?  I'd think workout B or skill days.

Rafe is a very smart guy and should be a good instructor based on the workouts i have seen him do for himself in his log so listening to what he has to say is a good thing, for sure.  If you will kindly notice, though...I did not remove anything! :P  In the posts I looked at (and I may have missed one) you had not stated any OH pressing or handstand goals.  I think OH pressing/HSPU are important but if its not a goal, then there is no reason to work it.  Plus, your workouts are pretty packed right now.  We got 3-4 movements on strength days (which sometimes consists of dance class, as well) with several hours of PK training and you like to run and you have to be physical for your job.  There is only so much you can work on at one time and I already fear that the workout plan we put together for you may be too much given how much you like to do.

You can work OH Press, HSPU or both next cycle.  I would suggest that you throw up handstands whenever possible though.  This is the only way to get a solid hold for a long duration (30-60+ seconds).  It will also prep you for the next cycle where you may do OH press/HSPU.

This brings up a very important point -- this routine is ONE CYCLE.  Your cycles should change and be varied with different workouts and goals -- every 4-8 weeks.  This is something that is often overlooked so DO MAKE SURE YOU REALIZE THAT!!! :) :D :)

(Speaking of reading, I'm going to get Starting Strength with my next paycheck.)

This is a good idea -- you may even want to hold off on the core lifts and work on other goals until you read the book in full.  Just my opinion, though :)


2) When should I add static hold exercises like planche progression and front & back lever?  Should I do these everyday here and there, whenever I can, like I do with handstands, or target them to land on specific days (i.e. push, pull, leg)?

Static holds are very intense techniques.  Despite some other advice here, they should only be done as part of high intensity strength work -- preferably before any dynamic work while the muscles are still fresh and able to learn proper synchronization/activation to maintain the hold.

Doing the holds more frequently is going to be better but when you incorporate weight lifting and other gymnastics movements into the mix you need to be careful with recovery - especially at age 29 (compared to, lets say, a 6 year old or 16 year old).  Listening to your body is going to be crucial and doing too little will be more beneficial than doing too much, hands down.

As I'm a bit older, I'm committed to only working each "muscle group" once a week with weights.

Entirely unnecessary no matter what your age.

As to the static holds, I guess I was thinking of Front & Back Lever as holds.  So, what you're saying is do them as dynamic exercises?  Like this front lever?  And this back lever?

Steve swayed me a while back into training the static holds as dynamic movements.  I must say, it is much more fun and you get strength through a full ROM as opposed to juts in the ROM where you hold that position.  Doing your BL and FL like this are beneficial -- but if the hold alone is your ultimate goal then you may want to also incorporate some time of just practicing the holds.  Do this practice on strength days before anything else and just after your warmup, if possible.  Another option would be to do it after dance class if it is not TOO grueling.


Other static holds I do are flag, L-sit, and handstand (skill or hold?).  I'll add planche work, but I'm confused as to when I should do them.  Skill days (T, Th, Sa, Su), or strength days (M, W, F)?

As stated above, do them on strength days unless they are "lower intensity" meaning they aren't hard and don't absolute rack you -- in which case you can do them on technique days.  I find flags, HS and L-sit to be much less demanding than planche, V-sit, manna and FL.  With that in mind, I do the former on technique/active rest days or just anytime I am bored whereas I will only do the latter on strength days so that I can manage my recovery.


My comment about working each muscle group once a week was due to the principle I've heard around the gym and online (in books, too?) that as we age we need more recovery time.  I'd be interested in learning more about this principle.  Does Starting Strength cover that kind of thing, or should I look elsewhere?

You certainly do but you don't necessarily need to micromanage your muscles.  You may take a longer time to recover than someone who is 6 or 16 or even 26 but as a novice you STILL recover quite quickly.  If you want further reading on this I suggest getting Practical Programming.

To reiterate, individual muscle groups rarely need to be micromanaged unless you are an advanced athlete/bodybuilder.  For example, on Monday I did weighted P-Bar dips and Pseudo Planche pushups on my rings.  On Wed I did Rings-Turned-Out (RTO) Dips and some planche work.  This coming Friday I will be doing heavy weighted dips and PPPU again.  I am making stellar progress on all of these movements without taking more than 1 day of complete rest in between.  I am only a few years younger than you [24] so maybe that will help inspire you (?).  This mostly has to do with the glory of being in the novice stage where movements are inefficient and don't really tax whole muscles since motor recruitment is not ideal just yet.

Okay, I will follow the above to the best of my ability.  I'll do 3 X 5 (1 X 5 deadlift) and add weight every week.  One problem for me is I'm not sure I have anyone to use as a spotter, I usually just grab someone for the last set.  If I find that going to 3 X 5 means lifting heavier than I'm comfortable lifting without a spotter, I'll drop weight and add sets.

You shouldn't need a spotter for anything but the bench press.  Most guys in big gyms get a huge hardon for helping other guys bench so finding a spotter is no big deal.  On your squats you should be in a power rack with safety bars or on some platform where you can bail the weight behind you by just dropping it and jumping forward.  Deadlifts require no spotter.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, with deadlift, I'm doing this, not this.  Should I keep doing the bent leg DLs or switch to straight leg?

Do DLs like in the first video.  Straight legs serve a different purpose and are surprisingly counterintuitive even when done properly.  Read SS and it will be more clear, as well.


Let me know if there are any other questions!
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