Author Topic: Soy  (Read 2300 times)

Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Soy
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »
There's also the big point that most of the soy in the USA is owned and patented by Monsanto...

Yeah raise your hand if you want a corporation controlling all of our food sources!  I just don't see any benefit to eat soy since you would get better results from other foods.  I guess the argument can be made that you could say that about any comfort food but who eats soy as comfort food?!!  Soy can be a huge detriment to people if its given in large portions during developmental parts of their life.  I think its pretty well agreed on that giving kids lots of soy is just stupid and harmful. 

Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Soy
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 01:06:11 PM »
I guess the argument can be made that you could say that about any comfort food but who eats soy as comfort food?!!

I do.  There are a lot of delicious soy-based foods in Chinese cuisine, and many of them are linked to my childhood.


Soy can be a huge detriment to people if its given in large portions during developmental parts of their life.  I think its pretty well agreed on that giving kids lots of soy is just stupid and harmful. 

Got a citation on that?

EDIT:
How do you define "lots of soy"?  How do you define "kids"?  There's a lot of soy-based food in Chinese cuisine, but I hesitate to say that Chinese culture stunts their children with diet.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 01:15:46 PM by Patrick Yang »
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Soy
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 04:07:09 PM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Offline RandJordan

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Re: Soy
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 08:08:10 PM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Sounds it was just an opinionated, biased statement. Rather than an actual citation from pure research.

Offline tombb

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Re: Soy
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 09:10:47 PM »
Quote
That's only an argument based on taste, assuming someone really -only- likes whole milk, which I am assuming is the case for you.

If you like skim milk and not whole milk, instead, there's no reason to drink whole milk, at all. You can have skim milk and if you want butter just add it in places where it's more tasty, like on vegetables or pasta or toast etc.
To people who don't like the taste of whole milk, whole milk is like putting butter in your drink, which is pointless since things will still be digested together anyways.

Wrong.

Skim milk especially is made up of just sugars + proteins which tend to spike insulin.
Steve,
Actually, no.  Skim milk is made up of milk minus butter. That's it. And insulin is spiked almost as much by protein alone. Lactose is a slower-digestion sugar and the ratio of it to proteins is quite acceptable, making it a very good food.

Also as I said, if you are having milk for breakfast and want also some milkfat, which is fine, nutritionally there is ZERO difference in choosing to put it on your toast, in your skim milk or in your coffee, except the middle one is a matter of taste (you seem to really like the taste of whole milk) and the last one just sounds a bit gross.
In addition, the exact ratio of fat to milk in whole milk is not any special magical number that needs to be preserved at all costs. It might be reasonably optimized for growing cows (calves? not sure..) but as adult human omnivores it is just a convenient food we choose to add to our diet and can definitely be optimized to our much different needs.

Also it is not a realistic concern to worry that people might drink skim milk like water (too much), not just because people don't do that, and because it's not even a calorie-dense food, but most importantly because they simply CAN'T.  Have you ever seen someone being dared to drink a gallon of skim milk in under an hour? You can't, and will throw up trying, because milk proteins alone ensure that milk will not clear out quickly enough from your gut (plus they do other good things like suppress your appetite much as fat does).
In contrast you can drink gallons of sugar soda drinks because that clears out almost right away as you know (sugar can be completely absorbed in the stomach).

Aside from those points, I can relate to your preference of a certain % of milk, because I consider what you call "white water" as the delicious normal food, and as I mentioned I find instead whole milk or even 0.5% undrinkable and tasting like a stick of butter stirred in my drink (and note, I really like the taste of butter when I cook, just not in my drink). But those are differences in taste, hence my position that it doesn't matter if you get your butter stirred in the milk or not.

On everything else like the benefits of adding good fats in your diet (and milkfat being one of them), we agree. But actually separating them out gives a bit more flexibility in how you rotate your essential fats and other flavors while cooking, so I think that's another plus too.

I guess the argument can be made that you could say that about any comfort food but who eats soy as comfort food?!!

I do.  There are a lot of delicious soy-based foods in Chinese cuisine, and many of them are linked to my childhood.


Soy can be a huge detriment to people if its given in large portions during developmental parts of their life.  I think its pretty well agreed on that giving kids lots of soy is just stupid and harmful. 

Got a citation on that?

EDIT:
How do you define "lots of soy"?  How do you define "kids"?  There's a lot of soy-based food in Chinese cuisine, but I hesitate to say that Chinese culture stunts their children with diet.
Patrick, I agree with you, there is no such studies or evidence.

I think there were some concerns in poverty-stricken places because it's harder to fully extract all nutrients from soy (due to fibers and a few extra things) and if you were barely surviving and only ate soy you might eventually get some nutritional deficiencies.
Still you would be better off trying to live off of only soy compared to almost only anything else. Only milk or only meat or only eggs etc will give you health problems much more quickly (e.g., pirates' scurvy etc).

Aside from that, it's very difficult to eat "a lot of soy" and even harder to eat too much soy, because it tastes like beans. They are good occasionally as a side to other dishes, but you can get tired of it very quickly.
But while too much of anything is bad, in normal amounts (for example the same amount as any other veggie you rotate in your diet), there is no negative side effect, and it's actually one of your best legumes/beans, although variety is still the spice of life and a good practice.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Soy
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 10:37:26 PM »
I never really looked into it too heavily but I heard the same thing as Sat about soy and children.

A quick google search brought up this article with several references:
http://www.hpakids.org/holistic-health/articles/125/1/Soy-Unsafe-for-Children

Now, I am not saying I agree or disagree...I only skimmed and haven't looked at the references...mostly because I am tired of reading scientific papers tonight.  But it may be good food for thought for others willing to do the reading.

AFAIK it is not nutritionally sound to suggest soy based proteins unless...

Because of these concerns, soy based baby formula should only be used when indicated, including:

    * babies who have galactosemia or hereditary lactase deficiency
    * parents who wish to raise their term baby as a vegetarian
    * infants with true lactose intolerance (a lactose free formula might be a better alternative in this case though)
    * infants who have an IgE mediated allergy to cow milk proteins (although these babies may need a hypoallergenic formula if they are also allergic to soy formula)

The basis for this is that there is very little data on soy based formulas and infants....and if you do not know it is better to not put a baby's life/development in danger especially since events that occur in youth resonate throughout a lifetime.
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Offline tombb

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Re: Soy
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 11:47:13 PM »
I never really looked into it too heavily but I heard the same thing as Sat about soy and children.

A quick google search brought up this article with several references:
http://www.hpakids.org/holistic-health/articles/125/1/Soy-Unsafe-for-Children

Now, I am not saying I agree or disagree...I only skimmed and haven't looked at the references...mostly because I am tired of reading scientific papers tonight.  But it may be good food for thought for others willing to do the reading.

AFAIK it is not nutritionally sound to suggest soy based proteins unless...

Because of these concerns, soy based baby formula should only be used when indicated, including:

    * babies who have galactosemia or hereditary lactase deficiency
    * parents who wish to raise their term baby as a vegetarian
    * infants with true lactose intolerance (a lactose free formula might be a better alternative in this case though)
    * infants who have an IgE mediated allergy to cow milk proteins (although these babies may need a hypoallergenic formula if they are also allergic to soy formula)

The basis for this is that there is very little data on soy based formulas and infants....and if you do not know it is better to not put a baby's life/development in danger especially since events that occur in youth resonate throughout a lifetime.
Nobody ever suggested depriving infants of milk and feeding them bean juice. It would be just as unreasonable to feed infants, say, beef juice instead of breast milk or infant formula.
Those points listed are words of caution regarding that, which again nobody here suggested. And there are many reasons why depriving infants of breast milk causes problems.

However, when you reach an age when you can eat solid foods, there are no disadvantages to consuming soy as any other vegetable, no suppression of anything etc.

We can look at any study in more detail  some other time but that's basically the conclusion, as far as I've seen any other claim of the sort is just based on taking something out of context and confusing causes (for example, effects that are not related to consuming soy but rather choosing not to consume something else, like breastmilk for infant etc).

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Soy
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2009, 08:33:31 AM »
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Soy
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2009, 12:02:28 AM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Sounds it was just an opinionated, biased statement. Rather than an actual citation from pure research.

seems like a logical conclusion.  well lets do this I know Chris already did a quick search so I'm gonna do something.  After I type this, I'm gonna spend 30 seconds on google and see what i come up with.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/544436

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html

http://pediatrics.jwatch.org/cgi/content/citation/2008/618/2

I haven't actually read any of those just because proving you wrong isn't worth the time since I've already wasted enough.

Offline tombb

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Re: Soy
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2009, 12:53:20 AM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Sounds it was just an opinionated, biased statement. Rather than an actual citation from pure research.

seems like a logical conclusion.  well lets do this I know Chris already did a quick search so I'm gonna do something.  After I type this, I'm gonna spend 30 seconds on google and see what i come up with.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/544436

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html

http://pediatrics.jwatch.org/cgi/content/citation/2008/618/2

I haven't actually read any of those just because proving you wrong isn't worth the time since I've already wasted enough.
Sat,
what is puzzling is that you would still believe something even knowing there is no basis for it (as all the articles you pulled just talk about breastmilk, which was never in question).

If you really wanted to both save time AND give advice to others about this, you should just say "I don't know anything about the topic, aside from rumors that were actually about a different topic and I extrapolated to this because I wasn't thinking about it carefully", and then yes you wouldn't have to look more into it.

Or if you actually looked into it and therefore realized that there is no such negative effect of soy, that wouldn't be wasted time as you would have good reason to actually give advice to others about it.

Otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and that's never a good idea, even if just out of apathy or laziness.
 
All you have done so far was support Rand's and Patrick's point, and just reinforced your unwillingness to check your facts for incorrect views you still seem to really want to believe in.

Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Soy
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2009, 09:55:03 AM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Sounds it was just an opinionated, biased statement. Rather than an actual citation from pure research.

seems like a logical conclusion.  well lets do this I know Chris already did a quick search so I'm gonna do something.  After I type this, I'm gonna spend 30 seconds on google and see what i come up with.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/544436

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html

http://pediatrics.jwatch.org/cgi/content/citation/2008/618/2

I haven't actually read any of those just because proving you wrong isn't worth the time since I've already wasted enough.
Sat,
what is puzzling is that you would still believe something even knowing there is no basis for it (as all the articles you pulled just talk about breastmilk, which was never in question).

If you really wanted to both save time AND give advice to others about this, you should just say "I don't know anything about the topic, aside from rumors that were actually about a different topic and I extrapolated to this because I wasn't thinking about it carefully", and then yes you wouldn't have to look more into it.

Or if you actually looked into it and therefore realized that there is no such negative effect of soy, that wouldn't be wasted time as you would have good reason to actually give advice to others about it.

Otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and that's never a good idea, even if just out of apathy or laziness.
 
All you have done so far was support Rand's and Patrick's point, and just reinforced your unwillingness to check your facts for incorrect views you still seem to really want to believe in.


Tom, maybe you didn't read my earlier post.  I said that giving soy milk to kids (i guess I should've specified infants) can be harmful and detrimental soooooooo yeah I guess two of the articles don't work but the middle one seems to support my statement pretty well.  I still fail to see how I have no basis for it.  Me having a soy bias is also almost as far as you can get from the truth.  I ate tons of soy product for 16 years of my life thinking it was healthy.  My parents gave me tons of soy as a child because they didn't think it was bad. 

Offline tombb

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Re: Soy
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2009, 11:10:53 AM »
I honestly can't find the motivation to dig it up, and it may be old information anyway.

Sounds it was just an opinionated, biased statement. Rather than an actual citation from pure research.

seems like a logical conclusion.  well lets do this I know Chris already did a quick search so I'm gonna do something.  After I type this, I'm gonna spend 30 seconds on google and see what i come up with.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/544436

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html

http://pediatrics.jwatch.org/cgi/content/citation/2008/618/2

I haven't actually read any of those just because proving you wrong isn't worth the time since I've already wasted enough.
Sat,
what is puzzling is that you would still believe something even knowing there is no basis for it (as all the articles you pulled just talk about breastmilk, which was never in question).

If you really wanted to both save time AND give advice to others about this, you should just say "I don't know anything about the topic, aside from rumors that were actually about a different topic and I extrapolated to this because I wasn't thinking about it carefully", and then yes you wouldn't have to look more into it.

Or if you actually looked into it and therefore realized that there is no such negative effect of soy, that wouldn't be wasted time as you would have good reason to actually give advice to others about it.

Otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and that's never a good idea, even if just out of apathy or laziness.
 
All you have done so far was support Rand's and Patrick's point, and just reinforced your unwillingness to check your facts for incorrect views you still seem to really want to believe in.


Tom, maybe you didn't read my earlier post.  I said that giving soy milk to kids (i guess I should've specified infants) can be harmful and detrimental soooooooo yeah I guess two of the articles don't work but the middle one seems to support my statement pretty well.  I still fail to see how I have no basis for it.  Me having a soy bias is also almost as far as you can get from the truth.  I ate tons of soy product for 16 years of my life thinking it was healthy.  My parents gave me tons of soy as a child because they didn't think it was bad. 
Sat, I think I realize where you are coming from (an upbringing of sort of the opposite extreme), and I don't disagree with you in that sense, that just substituting soy for everything is not a good way to go (just like it wouldn't be for any other food), and that soy doesn't necessarily mean healthy (just like it doesn't for any other food), that should be obvious to almost everybody.

(Which reminds me of a joke by the stand-up comedian Sarah Silverman, about how the events of a terrorist attack affected her, while pretending to be a superficial and not very smart person being more impressed by a different type of 'tragedy':
"They were devastating. They were beyond devastating. I don't want to say especially for these people, or especially for these people, but especially for me, because it happened to be the same exact day that I found out that the soy chai latte was, like, nine hundred calories. (shocked tone) I had been drinking them every day. You hear soy, you think healthy. (sad tone) And it's a lie.")


But the point is that soy is not the culprit and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Depriving infants from the best nutrition for other weird and not well-thought out reasons is the problem. If you only fed lettuce to infants instead of breastmilk/formula, that would also be very wrong and cause all sorts of health problems. Yet there is nothing wrong with lettuce as a food, and you don't need to warn other adults of the danger of lettuce based on the fact that you can't have babies survive on just lettuce juice.

If, say, when you were an infant your parents only fed you soy milk because they had a dislike of any technology or science and thus against formula (which is made to be more like breastmilk), had something against breastmilk too, and were strict vegans, clearly that was a bad choice. But if that happened it was because they were believing things without looking into them, which is the same thing you are doing now and equally wrong.

There is nothing wrong with soy, not a single health consequence from taking it, even as an infant, as long as they already moved to solid foods and they still have a balanced nutrition. And you should not assume it is automatically healthy or automatically unhealthy, just like, say, green beans, tomatoes, eggs, milk, soy, etc are all good but won't make anything healthy or unhealthy just by their inclusion alone.
They are perfectly normal and good foods and should all be integrated in a balanced and varied diet that considers your physiological needs rather than some oversimplified notion of always healthy or always bad.

And if you are never willing to look back carefully at your arguments and reasons for believing one position or another, how can you ever correct potentially wrong views? You end up being at the whim of whichever wrong opinions, incorrect correlation or rumor you hear first.

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Soy
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2009, 04:43:04 PM »
Giving soy to kids isn't detrimental.  To infants, sure, but I mean, that goes without saying.  I also wouldn't be throwing soy at kids, either.  My family, being Asian, consumed quite a bit of soy, but "quite a bit" is actually four days out of the month because of a cultural tradition.  I think consuming soy regularly, at the expense of other foods, for anyone is a bad idea, but that pretty much goes for anything else, as well.
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