Author Topic: The Wrong Idea  (Read 1180 times)

Offline Todd1

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Karma: +17/-2
    • View Profile
    • Darkburg (Harrisburg Parkour)
The Wrong Idea
« on: March 16, 2009, 07:43:01 AM »
Last night my friend and I went out for our Sunday run.  We condition by ourselves all week, then get together on Sundays to run through the city.  Last night we were out when I hear from somewhere, "Look freerunners!"  I turn my head and spy two kids approaching.  My friend and I are both 36, and these kids were around 14ish.  I have no problem with kids, I have a nearly 14 year old son myself.  They introduced themselves and said that they were freerunners.  I said that was cool, but we were training parkour.  They had never heard of it.  I did my best to try and explain the difference.  They seemed uninterested, and relentlesly told both of us that we should be doing freerunning because, and I quote, "flips are cool."  I said, "Great.  Flips are cool, but I'm not interested."  Now here's the part that is really interesting.  These kids proceeded to go with us on our run.  You name the flip and they could do it.  After climbing up a 12' wall they would do back and side flips off of it, no problem.  Of course it took them like 30 seconds to get to the top of the wall, but once up there, they could do anything off of it.  The thing that amazed me was when we got to the point of balancing on rails and doing precision jumps about 5' from rail to rail, they were frozen with fear and wouldn't even attempt it.  That's all fine and good, I don't expect anyone to try anything they're not comfortable with.  But the fact that a 12' backflip is less scary than a measly 5' precision just blew me away.  I asked the kids how often they practiced and conditioned, they told me that they did no conditioning whatsoever, and their idea of practicing FR was to throw rocks at cop cars and then see if they can outrun the cops.  Wow.  I was almost speechless.  My friend and I both tried our best to explain a few things:  1. If you don't condition, you'll blow your knees or ankles or something and you won't be freerunning long.  2.  If you rush into flips and stuff without a basic understanding of the fundementals, you will reach a plateau and find it hard to overcome.  3.  Not only is running from the cops a bad idea for yourselves, but it paints a really negative image of PKFR for all of us. 
We could've gone on all night lecturing these kids, but I could tell right away it was lost on them, they simply didn't care.  My point for posting this is to ask all of you two things:  1.  Have any of you encountered people like this?  And 2.  Do any of you have any ideas or tips that may help in dealing with people like this in the future?  We're supposed to meet up with them again next Sunday, and I really want to try and turn it around for them. 

Thanks in advance for any help.
"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

Offline Mechutu

  • Oryctolagus Cuniculus
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +2/-1
  • Preston Mills
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 08:08:45 AM »
They were serious about throwing rocks at cop cars..... that's crazy :o
At first I thought you were joking. Fortunatly I have never met anyone like that.
They sound like they don't really care about their lives or anyone elses for that matter. crazy
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity." 1 Timothy 4:12

Bowdz

  • Guest
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 08:10:06 AM »
That is pretty discouraging to come across people with that mindset, especially if they are trying to provoke the law enforcement just for some thrills. I don't know if I have met anyone who specifically thinks freerunning exclusively involves evading the police, but many people in my area seem to have the notion that freerunning is SOLELY performing flips and jumping off of high buildings.  I think it mainly comes from a lack of information on their part and considering many of the videos on youtube (which probably get people into freerunning and parkour in the first place) consist mainly of flips and drops, that can heavily influence their perspective on the art.  My only advice for dealing with them is just trying to inform them about the history and origins of parkour again and if they still seem uninterested, then try pointing them in the direction of this website. I feel like if more people learned about what parkour truly is, then they would start taking it slower and possibly avoid injury.

Offline Dylan Antonsen

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: +4/-1
  • Have efficiency, will travel.
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 08:34:35 AM »
Wow.

Explain to them just how dangerous blowing your kneecaps can be, and explain to them how much free running they can do in jail.
Ten pushups, twenty crunches, twenty squats.
^My version of the ten pushups club.

Offline Adam "Echo" C

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Karma: +5/-26
  • I jump over stuff.
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 09:50:46 AM »
That's mainly why I'm afraid to do parkour in the public -- law enforcement. It's the knuckleheads like them who give us a bad name.

And about throwing rocks at cops -- they're fourteen years old, obviously immature, betcha fifty bucks they were saying it just to sound bad-ass. If they are actually chucking rocks at the police, let's see them sideflip after they've been tased.  ;D
"Hi! I'm Mark Toorock from American Parkour. Today, we're going to be showing you parkour."

I will crush my mental blocks into a fine powder, and then I will construct a fabulous Zen garden.

Offline Todd1

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Karma: +17/-2
    • View Profile
    • Darkburg (Harrisburg Parkour)
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 09:54:01 AM »
It was very discouraging indeed.  I felt like there was no way to get through to them.  They didn't care about blowing their knees out or going to jail (they felt that the cops could never catch them.)  I do agree with Bowdz though, I feel that YouTube videos are all they know about PKFR.  They feel if they can do the big stuff they see in the videos, then they are just as good as them.  Frequently during our run last night, the one kid especially kept reflecting an attitude of competition amongst us.  "I can do this, I can do that, Can you do that, that sucked, who's better me or my friend, etc."  It was frustrating, but I kept reiterating that we weren't being graded, and that ultimately it doesn't matter what I can or can't do, or who is better.  PK for me will always be a work-in-progress.  Then I tried like hell to explain the origin and history of PKFR.  They didn't want to hear about Belle, Foucan, or the Yamakasi.  They didn't care about Methode Naturelle.  And they really didn't want to hear about moral philosophy.  I think altruism was the last thing on their minds.  I feel like these kids are bad, and would be getting into trouble no matter what, but I don't want to be like that.  I want to do what I can to reverse this negative and potentially dangerous attitude.
I do think it's a good idea about directing them here, so I will give them the APK site address next time.  But I am hoping there is something more I can do personally for them as well.

P.S.  I agree Adam.  I feel it was probably a lie to make them feel like bad-asses, but the impression they left on us was that of dumb-asses.
"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

Offline Adam "Echo" C

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Karma: +5/-26
  • I jump over stuff.
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 10:03:19 AM »
They obviously need to watch more "Cops". The police are so incredibly synchronized that if you do something stupid enough, they will catch you. They can spot which direction you're going and have three other patrol cars head you off and chase you down. They won't give you grace because you're a "kid". You'll be cuffed and chucked in the back seat like everybody else.

as the inner circle says at the  beginning of cops "Police nah give you no bruh-ake, police nah give you no break."

But yeah, that's what you call immaturity todd. Glad that you took a shot at breaking through their ignorance.

"Hi! I'm Mark Toorock from American Parkour. Today, we're going to be showing you parkour."

I will crush my mental blocks into a fine powder, and then I will construct a fabulous Zen garden.

Offline David M.

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
  • Karma: +20/-4
  • Awesome
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 10:50:15 AM »
I do not know whether you can change them or not. It is obvious that they are concerned with looking "cool" and impressing people. Sometimes it is easier just to forget about people like this although if you keep pushing them to realize the real reason to practise parkour and free running, it is possible they will change.
Quote from: Jim Wendler
Is what I'm doing awesome? If I ask myself that and the answer is no, then I don't do it

Offline Muse_of_Fire

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Karma: +519/-42
  • middle-aged man in mom's basement eating Fritos
    • View Profile
    • madisonparkour.com
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 10:51:32 AM »
Todd, good for you for trying to take these guys under your wing! As someone who works all day long with that age group (and knows how challenging they can be) I applaud you for taking the time. Not many people would.

My suggestion to you would be, instead of telling, try asking. Kids this age are figuring out how to be adults and a lot of times that involves them doing things that seem "adult" to them, and trying them on for size. For most boys this involves trying to be badass. :) For kids that age in general, it involves experiencing freedom (without really considering the responsibility part that goes along with it--that comes in time as maturity develops). They also consider themselves indestructible and so any talk of blowing out their knees really, truly will be lost on them. They genuinely do not believe it will happen to them; mostly because they have Hulk levels of testosterone fueling their actions (and flooding their reptilian brains) so they genuinely feel like they are invulnerable. :)

They are used to adults telling them what to do all day long, and as teenagers who are indestructible and "know everything," more adults telling them stuff is not going to be effective. Peer reactions are also very important to them, and figuring out their identity means they are constantly engaging in social behaviors that will help them understand where they are in the pecking order. This explains their obsession with trying to compare themselves to you, etc. For them the world is very simple: according to them, a dude who can do a backflip is obviously way cooler than a dude who can't, and is obviously better-skilled. Developmentally and experientially, they have not even figured out how to see the small stuff, or the long-term relationship between hard work and success. In essence you trying to tell them is like trying to describe a rainbow to a blind person. They're just not there yet.

But they are probably so thrilled to find other people who train, which is why they're excited about meeting up with you guys again. Plus, you're adults, which (whether they want to admit it or not) makes what they do "cool," and automatically also makes you "cool" because most adults wouldn't do something as "edgey and cool" as FR (how naive they are) :P So you are in a good position to leverage that and get them to come around. But you have to do it by asking, not by telling. They are not going to come around just because you say so. Instead, find out what their motivations are. How did they learn about PKFR? Why do they do it? What do they like about it? Did they/do they do other sports? Have they ever heard of David Belle? The Yamakasi? You have to find out about them to find out where you can find entry points to redirect their thought process. But you can't pull them down that path, you just have to show them and encourage them to take the steps on their own.

Encourage them to Google David Belle, Yamakasi, Jump Westminster, Pilgrimage, etre fort pour etre utile, etc. In your conversations while training, talk about what is important to you in parkour. But keep it short. Lead the training session, go ahead and tell them what to do without being bossy. It's clear they don't know how to train, they will probably be grateful (without realizing it) that you're willing to tell them what to do. When everyone shows up, start off with your normal warm-up, and just say, "When we train, we always start with (X) because (Y)." That's it, one sentence. Keep it short and focused on the movement and why you do it. If they start griping, reassure them that you will get to the "flips" eventually (don't call it "fun stuff" or "cool stuff" because by contrast you are making the conditioning/training "not cool/fun"). Try appealing to their macho/competitive side by offering challenges such as, "How fast can you make it up that wall?" Record everyone's time, and agree to all beat your own times by 5 seconds in a month or something. This engages their competitive side while subtly shifting the competition to competing against themselves rather than others. Also the challenge is something besides flips. :)

The most important thing you need to get them to reflect on is WHY. Ask them why they do freerunning. They will probably give you some answer like, "to get away from the cops" or "to be badass" or whatever. Accept it without approving of it, for now. It's just where they're at. But by being a good example yourself, and presenting the best options for them to choose to follow, eventually they will come around as they discover more about the "right" idea. If they've heard of Levi, and Ninja Warrior, you can get a ton of mileage by letting them know you know Levi and he's a really nice guy, and he trains 6 hours a day on just conditioning stuff, or whatever. I don't know how accurate my facts are, there; but hopefully you get my meaning. If you can connect what they perceive as "cool" to the real deal somehow, it could open their eyes and get them started seeking out the right ideas. Simply directing them to APK would help too if they're not familiar with it.

They are probably actually really intimidated after meeting some "real" traceurs and are covering it up with bravado (see above re: peer approval, pecking order, etc.) so by showing that you are really nice and validating their practice you will get farther than if you are all lecturey and stuff. You have to make it safe for them to admit (without admitting) that they were on the wrong path and didn't really know what they were doing. Eventually they will "admit" it by simply exhibiting changes in their thinking and their approach, and you just have to lead by example, and by acceptance of them, to get them there.

Just remember: ask more, tell less. The more you can find out about what PKFR means *to them*, the better equipped you'll be to help them.

I hope that made sense... I have a hard time articulating this stuff sometimes. But I know how kids that age tick. Hopefully there is some useful stuff in there for you. Good luck!
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Todd1

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Karma: +17/-2
    • View Profile
    • Darkburg (Harrisburg Parkour)
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 11:25:55 AM »
Actually, I think you articulated it quite well, and I think you're right.  I didn't feel I was being preachy or anything, but I definitely was telling them, more than asking them.  All-in-all fantastic advice, thank you so much.
"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

Offline Muhammad

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
  • Karma: +145/-57
    • View Profile
    • PARKOUR HORIZONS
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 11:26:51 AM »
Well, there pretty much isn't anything left to say after that last post! Allisa covered it better than probably any of us could have, LOL. Thanks for putting the thought and effort into it :)
(Relocated from Columbus, Ohio to Birmingham, UK, in September, 2011)

Offline Wenxin Yang

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 565
  • Karma: +19/-9
  • Muffin Button
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 11:58:27 AM »
I just turned fourteen, this is the reason why I don't go around trying to get everyone to try Parkour. Some kids just don't understand or are complete jerks. When someone seems like them might like it and do it "correctly," I go talk to them.

Offline max eisenberg

  • New Kid!
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Karma: +136/-274
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 01:05:26 PM »
and THIS is why i keep a separation between parkour and free running.

let them do what they want, two less idiots off the streets after not being able to escape the cops.


my mind is constantly moving, one day my body will be strong enough to keep up.

Offline Ben Stampahar

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • Karma: +26/-12
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 01:31:18 PM »
I'm tempted to say let them mess up their knees so they can't do that crap anymore(might not be the worst way to deal with this).  Its doubtful that they will change. 

I didn't even know it was possible to be a freerunner and not know what parkour is. 
If I can't speed vault it I can monkey vault it.
If I can't monkey vault it I can kong it.
If I can't kong it I can kash it.
If I can't kash it I can climb it.
If I can't climb it there's another way around it.

Offline Muse_of_Fire

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Karma: +519/-42
  • middle-aged man in mom's basement eating Fritos
    • View Profile
    • madisonparkour.com
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 01:39:50 PM »
It's frustrating, yes, but they're like that because they don't know any better. I think they should at least be given the opportunity to change/learn. No  need to be spiteful. :)
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline max eisenberg

  • New Kid!
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Karma: +136/-274
    • View Profile
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 03:02:23 PM »
It's frustrating, yes, but they're like that because they don't know any better. I think they should at least be given the opportunity to change/learn. No  need to be spiteful. :)

i think we need to stop giving our youth excuses.

thats why we have most kids their age doing stupid things like throwing rocks at cop cars.

the whole "they dont know any better" thing works to certain extents. at that age they should know when to listen to someone who is clearly older and more experienced then they are. from your story it sounds like they just felt like being dick heads.


my mind is constantly moving, one day my body will be strong enough to keep up.

Offline Muse_of_Fire

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Karma: +519/-42
  • middle-aged man in mom's basement eating Fritos
    • View Profile
    • madisonparkour.com
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 03:16:11 PM »
Reasons are not the same thing as excuses. I can understand a child's reason for doing something, which puts me in a position to help correct the behavior. This is not the same thing as excusing the behavior. They should be given a chance to change/learn (which Todd is clearly giving them). If, after that, they still don't listen, well, they are responsible to the consequences of that choice, whatever it may be. Just like if they do listen, the are responsible to the consequences of those choices as well. It's how they learn. The question is whether or not you are the type of person who is willing to go out of their way to help a kid make a better choice or not. Being willing to help a kid make a good choice is quite often exactly in line with NOT giving them excuses. I don't think there is any excuse for these kids' behavior. But there are legitimate reasons for it, and if I'm in a position to help them behave differently, I'm going to take it. Kids that age do stupid crap, it's a fact of life. As adults we can either ignore it and let them get worse and worse until the consequences are so great that their lives are ruined (wrecked knees, police records, whatever), or we can put ourselves in a position to try to guide them into not doing stupid crap. That's what kids need from adults. And quite often that process is pretty painful/unpleasant for kids as we make them face consequences. But better they face small consequences on a small scale, and learn from it, than to be condemned to making bigger and bigger mistakes because there wasn't an adult responsible enough to help a kid through the process of learning from those unpleasant consequences. Kids have zero judgment. They haven't been on earth long enough to put together the pieces of their experience in a meaningful way yet. Hence the need for adults to be present in their lives. Basically they need someone, when they are whining about how the cops are after them, to say, "Yeah, that really sucks. And they're after you because you made a dumb choice. Now face up to it, accept the consequences, and make a different choice next time. Here are some options for some better choices. Up to you." Rather than, "Yeah, that really sucks. Dumbass. End of discussion."
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Ryan Nicolai

  • Ambassador
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
  • Karma: +36/-47984
  • Notorius Buttmunch
    • View Profile
    • Hehehe
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 03:18:53 PM »
Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one eisenberg. However, we also need to hold the parents accountable. From my time in a leadership position with my scout troop you can tell who disciplines and teaches their kids and who doesn't. So we need to give some time to these kids and help guide them in the right way since we typically don't know their situation. However, if you know their parents and the way they were raised, then by all means drop the hammer.


“The character that takes command in moments of crucial choices has already been determined by a thousand other choices made earlier in seemingly unimportant moments." ~ Ronald Reagan

Offline Muse_of_Fire

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Karma: +519/-42
  • middle-aged man in mom's basement eating Fritos
    • View Profile
    • madisonparkour.com
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 03:25:44 PM »
I would like to add to that ^^ that very often, scout leaders, teachers, parkour club leaders, etc. are the only "parents" in some kids' lives. Their actual parents give them too long a leash, or are simply not present in their lives, and the kids are fumbling around in the dark trying to raise themselves. So yes, we have to show them the right way, and make them face up to consequences, and give some "tough love." But we have to do so in a way that is conducive to their learning the right choices, and learning to be self-sufficient, not in a way that is simply punitive. All that teaches them is that adults are "jerks who don't understand them" (which every teenager believes anyhow), and they will continue on their way learning nothing for a very long time, and just getting into deeper and deeper trouble.

She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Todd1

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Karma: +17/-2
    • View Profile
    • Darkburg (Harrisburg Parkour)
Re: The Wrong Idea
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 03:47:31 PM »
Quote
it sounds like they just felt like being dick heads.
Sorry if it sounded that way in my post, but I never intended that.  They were never nasty or truly disrespectful to us.  They had some ignorant and negative views on things, but they were never as you say, "dickheads."  They were interested enough in what we were doing to stop them from what they were doing and come with us in the first place.  I don't pretend to know who they are or what background they come from.  There could be a million reasons why they are the way they are.  I just don't feel this is as important as the fact that it doesn't have to be this way for them.  They are so close to finding parkour.  They are knocking on its door.  Sure tricking around town and running from cops isn't parkour.  But if you can get a few lightbulbs to go off in their heads, they could not only become really talented freerunners, but maybe have a better outlook on life as well.   
"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."