Author Topic: Glucose  (Read 1668 times)

Offline Steven Low

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2009, 07:49:52 PM »
Generally, it's best not to eat before a workout.

Banana = sugar rush = body responds by being hyperactive... sometimes.

Could mean that you're very carb tolerant to be honest.
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Offline mospunk

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 04:16:47 PM »
Steve, when you say that not eating before a workout is best, you mean right before a workout, right?  It seems that eating would be good to have enough fuel, somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour at least beforehand (probably not much closer to the workout than that, but I'm throwing out numbers that have worked for me - I usually don't eat at least 2 hours beforehand).  I'm thinking of Bjorn Daehlie, arguably the best cross-country skier in history, who ate a banana 45 minutes before every race.  Maybe it just worked for him and he was used to it, I don't know.  It makes sense to me somehow though.

On a similar note, I was re-reading an article from Outside magazine from May 2001 which interviewed Ed Burke, an exercise physiologist and distance biker who worked with some of the greats like Lance Armstrong and Greg Lemond, and he helped to construct a more effective PWO recovery utilizing the glycogen window, which you've probably heard of.  The amount of time for this window varies in the recent Googling I've done, but regardless, the idea states that between 45 minutes and 4 hours (depending on who you believe), you should consume one gram of carbs for each pound you weigh, along with one-fourth your body weight in protein.  Burke developed an energy drink to help with this, called Endurox R4.  Now I'm not huge into all those fancy drinks and such, but I gave this a shot, and personally it has become a staple of my PWO recovery.  I rarely feel sore the next day when I take it within one hour after a hard workout.  I will qualify this, however, in saying that this worked more effectively when the workout was more cardio-based, like running, biking, or skiing.  After rock climbing, it only made me gain weight, and not useful muscle either.  I also scaled down on the requirements.  I didn't need the full 1g carbs/lb body weight and 1/4xbody weight in protein. 

For rounding things out (and spurring future discussion I hope), this was the general diet plan that Burke suggested:
PWO - as I mentioned, including lots of water to rehydrate
1-3 hours after workout - follow-up meal consisting of 65% carbs, 20%fat, 15% protein (and water)
for the rest of the day/night - follow the 65-20-15 plan, adjusting caloric intake to your needs, but don't overdo it.  Continue drinking lots of water.

Additionally:
3-4 hours before workout - Pre-race/workout meal following 65-20-15, focusing on low glycemic foods
15-20 min before workout - 6-10 oz. of carb-rich sports drink to spike blood-glucose level

Now, from all the reading I've been doing in the diet forum here, most seem to think that spiking blood-glucose level is bad, and I can see the value in that.  All the up and down would logically seem unhealthy, but as a serious athlete on the other hand, it seems intelligent to prepare for the burning of so much energy, so that the downturn of blood sugar levels during the workout isn't as dramatic, particularly so that you don't bonk.  That's not fun.  Mr. Burke also qualified his theory with the idea that the PWO food should be high-glycemic in order to quickly replenish blood-sugar levels, but after that for the rest of the meals, they should focus on low glycemic foods, particularly from the outer edges of the grocery store (i.e. natural foods like fruits and veggies, whole grains, natural dairy, etc.). 

I don't pretend to be a nutritionist or exercise physiologist, but I wanted to relate this, because I find it interesting, and it has worked for me.  Now that I've read more on the bread and paleo diet forums, however, I may reassess the whole carb issue. 

Any thoughts?  How does this idea of 65-20-15 compare to the 40-30-30 research?
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 04:25:08 PM »
Steve, when you say that not eating before a workout is best, you mean right before a workout, right?  It seems that eating would be good to have enough fuel, somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour at least beforehand (probably not much closer to the workout than that, but I'm throwing out numbers that have worked for me - I usually don't eat at least 2 hours beforehand).  I'm thinking of Bjorn Daehlie, arguably the best cross-country skier in history, who ate a banana 45 minutes before every race.  Maybe it just worked for him and he was used to it, I don't know.  It makes sense to me somehow though.

On a similar note, I was re-reading an article from Outside magazine from May 2001 which interviewed Ed Burke, an exercise physiologist and distance biker who worked with some of the greats like Lance Armstrong and Greg Lemond, and he helped to construct a more effective PWO recovery utilizing the glycogen window, which you've probably heard of.  The amount of time for this window varies in the recent Googling I've done, but regardless, the idea states that between 45 minutes and 4 hours (depending on who you believe), you should consume one gram of carbs for each pound you weigh, along with one-fourth your body weight in protein.  Burke developed an energy drink to help with this, called Endurox R4.  Now I'm not huge into all those fancy drinks and such, but I gave this a shot, and personally it has become a staple of my PWO recovery.  I rarely feel sore the next day when I take it within one hour after a hard workout.  I will qualify this, however, in saying that this worked more effectively when the workout was more cardio-based, like running, biking, or skiing.  After rock climbing, it only made me gain weight, and not useful muscle either.  I also scaled down on the requirements.  I didn't need the full 1g carbs/lb body weight and 1/4xbody weight in protein. 

For rounding things out (and spurring future discussion I hope), this was the general diet plan that Burke suggested:
PWO - as I mentioned, including lots of water to rehydrate
1-3 hours after workout - follow-up meal consisting of 65% carbs, 20%fat, 15% protein (and water)
for the rest of the day/night - follow the 65-20-15 plan, adjusting caloric intake to your needs, but don't overdo it.  Continue drinking lots of water.

Additionally:
3-4 hours before workout - Pre-race/workout meal following 65-20-15, focusing on low glycemic foods
15-20 min before workout - 6-10 oz. of carb-rich sports drink to spike blood-glucose level

Now, from all the reading I've been doing in the diet forum here, most seem to think that spiking blood-glucose level is bad, and I can see the value in that.  All the up and down would logically seem unhealthy, but as a serious athlete on the other hand, it seems intelligent to prepare for the burning of so much energy, so that the downturn of blood sugar levels during the workout isn't as dramatic, particularly so that you don't bonk.  That's not fun.  Mr. Burke also qualified his theory with the idea that the PWO food should be high-glycemic in order to quickly replenish blood-sugar levels, but after that for the rest of the meals, they should focus on low glycemic foods, particularly from the outer edges of the grocery store (i.e. natural foods like fruits and veggies, whole grains, natural dairy, etc.). 

I don't pretend to be a nutritionist or exercise physiologist, but I wanted to relate this, because I find it interesting, and it has worked for me.  Now that I've read more on the bread and paleo diet forums, however, I may reassess the whole carb issue. 

Any thoughts?  How does this idea of 65-20-15 compare to the 40-30-30 research?


This article doesn't cover PWO, which is a different ball game all together, but its very good for understanding carbs...

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohdyrates-do-you-need.html

Really, you only need 0 carbs a day to survive...like, basic survival.  Not good but possible.  Individual carb recommendations vary WIDELY with the individual...

PWO, as I said, is a whole other animal.  Going overboard with 150-170g carb for most men seems like overkill to me especially with the benefits of consuming ample protein after a bout...

If you want to eat a lot of carbs, imho, it should be done PWO.  Else, its really not necessary unless you are a super-endurance athlete.  65-20-15, in my opinion, for the general population, is just going to lead to a fat society -- oh wait, it already has...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 04:27:32 PM by Chris Salvato »
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Offline mospunk

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 04:33:01 PM »
Yes yes, I forgot to mention that this whole thing was for more serious athletes, not for the common individual.  My goodness, that would be ridiculous!  I agree about your fat comment, and I would agree about the carb thing with normal meals.  The research from Burke mostly dealt with PWO, which is where I believe imho carbs should still be considered by the athlete.  If the research is there (and it's qualified by several researchers dating back to the 60's I believe, but more refined in the 80's), it seems viable and worth consideration.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 05:43:13 PM »
Yes yes, I forgot to mention that this whole thing was for more serious athletes, not for the common individual.  My goodness, that would be ridiculous!  I agree about your fat comment, and I would agree about the carb thing with normal meals.  The research from Burke mostly dealt with PWO, which is where I believe imho carbs should still be considered by the athlete.  If the research is there (and it's qualified by several researchers dating back to the 60's I believe, but more refined in the 80's), it seems viable and worth consideration.

Higher carb concentrations PWO is well proven to be beneficial in many ways.  Necessary?  Thats a different story.  Beneficial, though, sure.

Personally, I make sure i get in a higher concentration of carb PWO.  I avoid high carb foods at all other times.
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Offline tombb

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2009, 05:41:04 PM »
Most things are not really 'necessary' or essential, but they can still be extremely useful especially if you look beyond mere survival and are interested in improved or optimal performance.

Take exercise, for example. If you follow the criteria of necessary or essential that has been used in this thread, it's -completely- unnecessary as you absolutely do not require it for survival. Yet we know better, and in fact we know that many things that are not strictly necessary for survival can significantly increase your health, performance and quality of life. Exercise and carbohydrates are both good examples of this when used properly.

In fact carbohydrates are really important in properly amplifying adaptation to exercise, which is one of the reasons why coupling them together properly with proper timed intake is so beneficial.

While it's unfortunately easier to go overboard with too little exercise and too much (many?) carbs than the other way around (which is also bad but rare today) or than striking a proper balance, carbs have unique and very important advantages over proteins and fat.

Basically almost every problem that can be caused by carbs when overeating and sedentary is actually a positive mechanism when exercising and eating properly. Carbs help hormonal levels go in the right direction quickly after exercise, help actually prolong insulin sensitivity after exercise, they facilitate inflammatory responses during exercise which actually help your body better adapt and produce and maintain higher levels of antioxidant molecules (improving future endurance and strength output and reducing inflammation and free radicals when trained).

On the other hand, if you don't care about optimizing performance and improving your response to training, for example if you never train and have a very sedentary lifestyle, then yes carbohydrates are not so important there, and instead you will still need small amounts of essential nutrients like essential fats, vitamins, minerals and proteins to maintain your health.  But I would still recommend to try to incorporate some exercise and carbs even in that fully sendentary scenario to further improve both health and performance, a little exercise can be very useful to keep you in peak condition, and right after it is the best time to consume carbs and proteins to improve its effectiveness.

Offline mospunk

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Re: Glucose
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 07:48:05 PM »
Here Here.  +1
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