Author Topic: Calorie dense foods  (Read 1963 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 03:45:31 PM »
No offense intended, but you have some misunderstandings regarding the behavior of the bioenergetic pathways (read: how your body makes energy/ATP)

Your body doesn't "switch" from using carbs to using fats.  Rather, it is using fat (oxidative pathway), carbs (glycolytic pathway) and creatine phosphate (phosphagen pathway) simultaneously at all times.  When we are at rest, most of our energy is produced by the oxidative pathway (read: fat). 

If this was not the case, we would not need to breathe and could live on the moon pretty easily without any space suits.

That said, when we are always using all 3 pathways at the same time.  In high intensity exercise, we start with creatine dominating, then it depletes...when it depletes, we slow down as our glycogen stores start to dominate (since it is faster than using fats/oxidizing nutrients)....when that is depleted we switch to fats dominating the picture (which is why our performance approaches our performance at rest...meaning nothing).

A long distance run is not a high intensity exercise.  All 3 pathways are in use for a majority of the run so long as you are not at maximal intensity.  When we are at a SUSTAINABLE intensity, glycogen stores may never fully deplete...but this does not mean we are not using our fat stores...

Realistically speaking...the only nutrient one NEEDS in their diet is protein.  The rest is optional (loosely speaking).  Carbs can be changed to fats and fats can be converted to carbs so the point here is moot.  When we eat a lower carb diet the cells become more sensitive to sugar in the blood stream which is much more desirable for any athlete.  Distance runners may want to eat slightly more carbs, more often, to make sure they have their glycogen for the longer efforts but making them 60% of the diet is a bit much...

The goal of an athlete's diet is to create insulin sensitivity....u can't really achieve that with much efficacy if you eat large amounts of pasta and potatoes regularly.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:48:39 PM by Chris Salvato »
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline Andy Animus Tran

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
  • Karma: +146/-44
  • The Invisible Man
    • View Profile
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 04:57:25 PM »
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
Lead Parkour Instructor
Urban Evolution
Parkour Virginia

Offline Liset Reep

  • Oryctolagus Cuniculus
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 06:19:03 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up Chris. I guess maybe I was generalizing too much.  :-[
My wedding anniversary is the same weekend as the CO National Jam.
This makes me very sad, and if I didn't already have everything booked, it'd be a hard decision.

Offline Steven Low

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 5493
  • Karma: +281/-55
    • View Profile
    • Eat, Move, Improve
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 07:48:32 PM »
Liset:

Read this.... it's my summary of the energy pathways and how they all relate during exercise ESPECIALLY running.

http://eshlow.blogspot.com/#ENG




Hmmm, my textbook says otherwise, but I'll defer to your better judgment. (In regard to protein classifications)

What textbook?

(you better not say "essentials of strength and conditioning"...)
Posts NOT medical, training or nutrition advice
Site // Overcoming Gravity Book

Offline Andy Animus Tran

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
  • Karma: +146/-44
  • The Invisible Man
    • View Profile
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2009, 10:02:33 PM »
Steve, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't say that.  He and I have discussed how we dislike the standards set by the NSCA.  But that made me laugh pretty hard. :D
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
Lead Parkour Instructor
Urban Evolution
Parkour Virginia

Offline tombb

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Karma: +59/-34
    • View Profile
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 10:53:11 PM »
No offense intended, but you have some misunderstandings regarding the behavior of the bioenergetic pathways (read: how your body makes energy/ATP)

Your body doesn't "switch" from using carbs to using fats.  Rather, it is using fat (oxidative pathway), carbs (glycolytic pathway) and creatine phosphate (phosphagen pathway) simultaneously at all times.  When we are at rest, most of our energy is produced by the oxidative pathway (read: fat)

If this was not the case, we would not need to breathe and could live on the moon pretty easily without any space suits.

...

Realistically speaking...the only nutrient one NEEDS in their diet is protein.  ...
Chris, a few important corrections on your statements above (I bolded the incorrect ones for clarity).

It sounds like you are equating carbs just with the glycolytic pathway and equating the oxidative pathway just with fat. Both of those are incorrect.  Sugars and carbs in general do give you some quick ATP anaerobically in the first step of glycolysis but the large majority of their energy is extracted later from the extra pyruvate produced in the process, starting with its oxidative decarboxylation, passing through the usual citric acid and ending with a whole lot of oxidative phosphorylation.
So while it's certainly true that fat metabolism also uses citric acid and oxidative phosphorylation after going through lipolysis and beta oxidation, it is certainly not the only or even the major substrate for it, both carbs and fats get to the same acetyl-coA molecule as an intermediate for aerobic energy pathways.

Similarly, fat metabolism is not as you seem to claim the reason why we need to breath, and in fact you can grow cells on just a substrate of pyruvate/sugar and a few aminoacids alone and they will still live indefinitely only provided they are allowed access to oxygen.

So again I think the important thing not to confuse is the actual end pathway (e.g., oxidative pathway) with the initial available substrates (sugar/carbs or fat). Carbs just happen to have a few more 'emergency' options available in a pinch like anaerobic lactate energy pathways.
And in terms of switching between fuels, your body does indeed use various combinations of these pathways and generally uses multiple energy sources to different degrees but it does have preferences and ranking orders and will not bother with much beta oxidation or fat metabolism while it still has large amounts of the same substrate for oxidative metabolism from carbs/glycogen. People have been trying many strategies to try to change that but had very limited success.

Also I should point out that technically you don't 'need' proteins more than you need other nutrients. Speaking about survival alone you can go for very extended periods of time without any protein just as you can do for carbs or fat (it's not good for you of course but you can live through it fine). As long as you have air and water, you just need things like vitamins,minerals and the 8 essential aminoacids (plus other molecules that are very good for you but not quite life-or-death good, like essential fats) to survive well and an energy source, either sugar/carbs or even just fat stores from your body. Everything else can be made from anything else, you can make all other aminoacids and therefore any protein from just sugar and nitrogen recovered from other pathways. That's one of the reasons that allows you to survive for so long on just water (and vitamins) if you are overweight, something that was quite an evolutionary advantage in times of famines (or for animals hybernating several months every year).

Offline KC Parsons

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
  • Karma: +78/-13
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2009, 11:00:18 PM »
No offense intended, but you have some misunderstandings regarding the behavior of the bioenergetic pathways (read: how your body makes energy/ATP)

Your body doesn't "switch" from using carbs to using fats.  Rather, it is using fat (oxidative pathway), carbs (glycolytic pathway) and creatine phosphate (phosphagen pathway) simultaneously at all times.  When we are at rest, most of our energy is produced by the oxidative pathway (read: fat)

If this was not the case, we would not need to breathe and could live on the moon pretty easily without any space suits.

...

Realistically speaking...the only nutrient one NEEDS in their diet is protein.  ...
Chris, a few important corrections on your statements above (I bolded the incorrect ones for clarity).

It sounds like you are equating carbs just with the glycolytic pathway and equating the oxidative pathway just with fat. Both of those are incorrect.  Sugars and carbs in general do give you some quick ATP anaerobically in the first step of glycolysis but the large majority of their energy is extracted later from the extra pyruvate produced in the process, starting with its oxidative decarboxylation, passing through the usual citric acid and ending with a whole lot of oxidative phosphorylation.
So while it's certainly true that fat metabolism also uses citric acid and oxidative phosphorylation after going through lipolysis and beta oxidation, it is certainly not the only or even the major substrate for it, both carbs and fats get to the same acetyl-coA molecule as an intermediate for aerobic energy pathways.

Similarly, fat metabolism is not as you seem to claim the reason why we need to breath, and in fact you can grow cells on just a substrate of pyruvate/sugar and a few aminoacids alone and they will still live indefinitely only provided they are allowed access to oxygen.

So again I think the important thing not to confuse is the actual end pathway (e.g., oxidative pathway) with the initial available substrates (sugar/carbs or fat). Carbs just happen to have a few more 'emergency' options available in a pinch like anaerobic lactate energy pathways.
And in terms of switching between fuels, your body does indeed use various combinations of these pathways and generally uses multiple energy sources to different degrees but it does have preferences and ranking orders and will not bother with much beta oxidation or fat metabolism while it still has large amounts of the same substrate for oxidative metabolism from carbs/glycogen. People have been trying many strategies to try to change that but had very limited success.

Also I should point out that technically you don't 'need' proteins more than you need other nutrients. Speaking about survival alone you can go for very extended periods of time without any protein just as you can do for carbs or fat (it's not good for you of course but you can live through it fine). As long as you have air and water, you just need things like vitamins,minerals and the 8 essential aminoacids (plus other molecules that are very good for you but not quite life-or-death good, like essential fats) to survive well and an energy source, either sugar/carbs or even just fat stores from your body. Everything else can be made from anything else, you can make all other aminoacids and therefore any protein from just sugar and nitrogen recovered from other pathways. That's one of the reasons that allows you to survive for so long on just water (and vitamins) if you are overweight, something that was quite an evolutionary advantage in times of famines (or for animals hybernating several months every year).
This is some good stuff.
I'm curious, though..
Now how could one be able to apply this awesome information practically into their diet practice in relation to their performance desires?

Offline Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2009, 10:57:45 AM »
I apologize for not being 100% accurate because I was oversimplifying for the sake of clarity.

To be frank, though, your post confused the hell out of me and I needed to consult with a few different people to understand what you were talking about lol
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline MrMeticulous

  • Oryctolagus Cuniculus
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Live Free, Run Free
    • View Profile
Re: Calorie dense foods
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2009, 11:31:04 AM »
This is some good stuff.
I'm curious, though..
Now how could one be able to apply this awesome information practically into their diet practice in relation to their performance desires?
"There is only do or do not, there is no try." - Jedi Master Yoda