Author Topic: The power of the mind?  (Read 2175 times)

Offline Alec Furtado

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The power of the mind?
« on: January 12, 2009, 06:06:32 PM »
So we know quite a bit about health and how the body functions but one thing I've always wondered was how the mind can come into play. I mean there are numerous accounts of seemingly weak people lifting cars to get people out from under them. I've seen people start acting drunk even though the stuff they were drinking that they thought was beer really wasn't beer or even alcohol. The placebo effect as well has had some crazy stuff come because of it.


Have there been any people that have been able to stay perfectly healthy even if they ate a ton of crap?

A scenario I've heard from quite a few people is if you eat all this healthy food but you hate it and it makes you feel like crap and your mental crappiness might (?) lead to physical crappiness. On the other hand, if you eat good tasting food (not terribly bad but some candy and stuff), you are generally in a better mood and your body then functions better. [Disclaimer: totally theoretical and based off nothing scientific. It is recommended that you don't follow this without reading the following discussion]

Of course this doesn't mean anybody can flip over cars and make themselves skinny or ripped just by thinking about it hard enough but I simply want to explore the concept.

This is another one of those open topics like the "Thoughts on alcohol" that I started a while ago. I don't care where you all decide to lead this discussion, as long as it makes sense with the topic. It's an aspect of health that I've always wondered about but never actually got into it: how does mental health/attitude influence the physical body?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 06:08:03 PM by Alec Furtado »
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Offline Jake Vigil

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 06:29:49 PM »
I believe very strongly in the power of mind.

Your brain controls your body, all of it. There have been cases of people preforming extraordinary feats, either by sheer will power or when fueled by fear. I still think that you need to eat healthily and all that, but I believe that it is possible to tap into and enhance those hidden corners of the mind, which control the rest of your body.

And on top of the power of mind deal, science has proven that "paranormal" exists in respects to our minds. Heres an example. A computer was set to display and record numbers randomly. It would quickly scroll them on the screen, making a sort of document of all the numbers. When the machine was set to do its thing, after a little while, the results were checked. As you would expect, the numbers were pretty even, each number being picked about the same number of times. But here's where the experiment got interesting. A human was sat in front of the computer, making no contact with the machine. The participant was instructed to focus on a certain number, and try to transmit it to the machine. What happened? It worked. Many participants were tested, different machines, and the results showed that the number selected by the human was shown slightly more times than the rest of the numbers (Talking numbers like 1,100,000 to 1,000,000.

Cool eh?
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Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 07:07:39 PM »
I don't know if this counts, but I have an inexplicable blood disorder. My white blood cell count is so low that doctors who don't know me see my chart and ask my hematologist how long I have to live. My hematologist has been puzzled over this for years (they first caught it about 6 years ago, by accident, and haven't been able to ever explain it despite numerous tests). What makes it weird is that I'm in great health. I miss maybe one day of work per year due to illness. I work in a school, in a cold climate, and I'm perpetually stressed and sleep-deprived as many of you know. So you'd think I'd be down with colds and flu all the time, but strangely I'm not. I don't know if it's the power of the mind or not, but I certainly feel strongly that part of what kept me well all that time before they caught the low WBC was simply that I didn't realize I "should" be sick.

I usually just tell my doctor (and any number of residents, colleagues, interns, etc. that he trots out to look at me during visits) that it's my superpowers manifesting. :P

As to weak people lifting cars off other people, etc; usually that's attributed to mothers saving their children. With adrenaline added to Maternal Instinct, there really isn't a whole lot that can stop that.

As they say, though, attitude is everything. And like the Henry Ford quote says, "Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right."
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she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
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Offline Jake Vigil

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 07:14:30 PM »
I couldn't agree more. I can add easily a foot to my jumps when I spend a bit of time meditating before I jump. I spent a lot of time researching the paranormal, things like Psionics and Reiki and the like, and I apply a lot of the tricks I learned from practice to Parkour, with quite impressive results, like the Jump i mentioned before.
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Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 07:15:07 PM »
Sure it counts. ;D

As to weak people lifting cars off other people, etc; usually that's attributed to mothers saving their children. With adrenaline added to Maternal Instinct, there really isn't a whole lot that can stop that.
Well those are not the only cases I've heard of but yea. You might even be able to leave out the adrenaline part...  :P

"Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right."
That is.... so tight.


I too have had a strong belief in the power of the mind. I forget which Rendezvous episode is was but Danny Ilabaca even talked about how he noticed all of his issues and troubles were really just in his mind and a matter of perception.


The world itself is actually all a matter of perception. I'd say there is certainly one reality but everyone has their own world that is determined by how they chose or are wired to perceive different things that occur in the single reality.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 07:17:53 PM by Alec Furtado »
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Offline tombb

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 09:25:18 PM »
Just to correct this, science has never successfully verified anything in respect to paranormal. In fact in every single instance it has disproved specific instances of things that seemed paranormal but were not.

The example Jake gave of the computer generating random numbers is definitely a urban legend at best.
You wouldn't be able to find it published anywhere in non-rumor form, unlike real scientific research.  You would never be able to replicate the results in that urban legend.  And every detail about it is illogical: random number generators in computers are not random but rather sequences of predetermined numbers that are 'random enough' for most purposes, but don't even change from test to test, plus a human brain and a computer store numbers in completely different ways, there is no interaction between the two etc.

Super-human-like feats are actually not supernatural, they are still explained and completely reproducible by things like adrenaline or heavy drugs or forced electrical contractions, pushing people to use their muscles past normal safety thresholds, but still never ever exceeding the physical limits of their total mass and max theoretical power output. When people come down from drugs they will be able to perceive the pain and physical damage they did to their muscles.

Anything that is reproducible is just part of science, you can observe it long enough to figure out in more details the mechanisms of how it works, what it needs to work, how to make it not work anymore etc.

Mental focusing, preparing psychologically to secrete more adrenaline, speed up heartbeat etc are all normal physiology based techniques without any mystery about them, the brain and nervous system are linked to those glands and systems in a partially controllable way for good reasons. You should keep them in mind and use them to your advantage, but you don't need any type of mysticism to make them work, explain them or use them.

Also in terms of 'tapping unused parts of your brain', something to note is that the more you become adept at doing something and the less of your brain you use for it, because your brain is getting better at processing it. Using more brain is generally a bad thing in neurobiology and neural psychology, and happens for example if you are very confused, with random cell assemblies representing various concepts firing up when they are not supposed to. Similarly, seizures are also an example of why randomly turning on parts of your brain when they are not supposed to be on is just not a good thing.
If a paper has more than 50% ink on it, it actually doesn't contain more information, it contains less, and if it is 100% ink it contains no information.

I would recommend you guys read something like Thinking critically about new age ideas to help you parse through these types of questions better.

Offline Muse_of_Fire

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 09:33:22 PM »
Huh. I guess I interpreted the thread to be about the power of a positive attitude/perseverance more than the paranormal stuff. Maybe I misunderstood the first post.
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Offline Jake Vigil

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 09:46:43 PM »
Here comes tombb to save the day. What would we do without your vast and complete knowledge of all things science? I just spent about half an hour writing a reply to your statement, but it really doesn't matter.


I really appreciate you clearing me up on what I had said. I obviously have no idea what I am talking about. Though most of what you said was irrelevant to the subject, I feel like I learned a lot.
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Offline Derik (QuikSilva) DaSilva

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 09:52:52 PM »
Here comes tombb to save the day. What would we do without your vast and complete knowledge of all things science? I just spent about half an hour writing a reply to your statement, but it really doesn't matter.


I really appreciate you clearing me up on what I had said. I obviously have no idea what I am talking about. Though most of what you said was irrelevant to the subject, I feel like I learned a lot.

It may just be a matter of faith versus science. Which is not something I'm about to open up in a public forum. Potential holy wars aside, some people believe that all actions of the human body can be explained scientifically or faithfully. I think that until we can 100% understand the human body and the human mind and how everything works in conjuction with everything else (near impossible IMO), we should all just focus on positive thoughts and keep a positive outlook, because I know that that alone has helped me, and that's all the proof I need.
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Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 10:11:17 PM »
Huh. I guess I interpreted the thread to be about the power of a positive attitude/perseverance more than the paranormal stuff. Maybe I misunderstood the first post.
Uh no, it was. I guess I'll state my original idea again: how does mental health/attitude influence the physical body?


tombb, of course the stuff is explainable. I am a scientist and engineer. However, you can't just do this stuff. It doesn't work that way. If it did, everybody would be doing it constantly. It takes an extreme situation or extreme amount of concentration to be able to reach those points. Duh they're not supernatural. Duh computers aren't actually random. I left this topic free to roam but not to an area that would obviously kill it (e.g. crap that isn't real, no offense Jake lol). Let's bring it back. How about the scenario I originally mentioned:
A scenario I've heard from quite a few people is if you eat all this healthy food but you hate it and it makes you feel like crap and your mental crappiness might (?) lead to physical crappiness. On the other hand, if you eat good tasting food (not terribly bad but some candy and stuff), you are generally in a better mood and your body then functions better. [Disclaimer: totally theoretical and based off nothing scientific. It is recommended that you don't follow this without reading the following discussion]



And, actually, I would argue that you can use "mysticism" to make these things work. Any weird practice that can help to put you in the correct mental state to do these things is good. Call it whatever the hell you want, but it worked and that's what matters. If you want to call it "mysticism," then who cares. It's all about perception, not actuality. No, it's not literally magic but that's not the point.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 10:17:09 PM by Alec Furtado »
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Offline tombb

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 11:05:39 PM »
Huh. I guess I interpreted the thread to be about the power of a positive attitude/perseverance more than the paranormal stuff. Maybe I misunderstood the first post.
Uh no, it was. I guess I'll state my original idea again: how does mental health/attitude influence the physical body?


tombb, of course the stuff is explainable. I am a scientist and engineer. However, you can't just do this stuff. It doesn't work that way. If it did, everybody would be doing it constantly. It takes an extreme situation or extreme amount of concentration to be able to reach those points. Duh they're not supernatural. Duh computers aren't actually random. I left this topic free to roam but not to an area that would obviously kill it (e.g. crap that isn't real, no offense Jake lol). Let's bring it back. How about the scenario I originally mentioned:
A scenario I've heard from quite a few people is if you eat all this healthy food but you hate it and it makes you feel like crap and your mental crappiness might (?) lead to physical crappiness. On the other hand, if you eat good tasting food (not terribly bad but some candy and stuff), you are generally in a better mood and your body then functions better. [Disclaimer: totally theoretical and based off nothing scientific. It is recommended that you don't follow this without reading the following discussion]
Alec, I agree. 
Your immune system and endocrine glands for example are all things that can be taxed by continuous stress and negative states of mind, and prolonged unnecessary secretion of certain hormones can then cause other damage to organs and tissues. Those are all known and measurable effects and stem from the fact that the brain has some direct control of these systems (for important things like fight or flight reactions, if you are in severe fear your bowel movements will stop, your heart rate will increase, you will secrete all sorts of hormones, etc).
Even for the immune system, initial stress actually causes an increase in immune response. But if stress continues uninterrupted, the immune response actually returns to normal (sort of as a 'false alarm' reaction), and then can continue to decrease even further causing a sort of immune suppression due to stress.

And using techniques like visualization, mood and breathing control, focus etc can also be used strategically and improved with practice to improve body control and awareness and therefore sport performance.

For your example specifically, there are influences both ways. For example if you eat healthy foods you hate, there might be additional body-related reasons (not just personal taste) why you feel that way about them.
Regarding your example, if you are feeling a craving for a different type of food, that might be a sign you should listen to (depending on context and assuming you are not sort of in a 'detoxing' phase from some bad habit) and a manifestation of various hormonal balances and imbalances (ghrelin, leptin, insulin, cortisol etc).
If you feel tired of eating the same type of food it can also be a sign that your diet is imbalanced and your body is reacting to that and craving what is missing.

On the other hand it also goes a bit the opposite way too as you are suggesting, if you are stressed, emotionally unhappy etc it can affect your appetite, your health etc.
There is a bit of adaptation to consider, where for example you might miss candy and fried foods initially but you might also get used to and happy with other foods once you get past an initial adjustment.
In general, I would say yes you should try to be both happy and healthy, and not just one or another, because being unhappy can affect your diet (for example having depression or poor self-confidence and low body image can all lead to bad physiological consequences), and eating anything that makes you happy but becoming unhappy can even make you depressed and tired (chemical imbalances can do that, like the ancient Romans used to say, sit mens sana in corpore sano, a healthy mind in a healthy body).  Usually it's good to have some allowance and flexibility to allow you to enjoy the good things in life, for example using moderation to control amounts and frequency to offset things.


And, actually, I would argue that you can use "mysticism" to make these things work. Any weird practice that can help to put you in the correct mental state to do these things is good. Call it whatever the hell you want, but it worked and that's what matters. If you want to call it "mysticism," then who cares. It's all about perception, not actuality. No, it's not literally magic but that's not the point.

Well I said you don't need to, not that you couldn't. If visualizing energy flows helps you control muscle tone and movement flow while doing martial arts, nothing wrong with that. But the same visualization will work even if you don't really believe in it and use it as a technique.

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 11:31:04 PM »
Thanks for the extra detail on my scenario. That just makes things so difficult too :P. In the end, it all seems to go back to just experimenting with your body (within reason). A good health-educated person would be a great help to interpret responses correctly. I don't think there is enough of that which is why people can reach these really weird conclusions.

Well I said you don't need to, not that you couldn't. If visualizing energy flows helps you control muscle tone and movement flow while doing martial arts, nothing wrong with that. But the same visualization will work even if you don't really believe in it and use it as a technique.
Yea k then exactly ;D. Kinda read the mysticism part and left out the rest :-[


Don't we still know like barely anything (relatively) about the brain or is it actually pretty well understood?
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Offline tombb

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 12:34:05 AM »
Thanks for the extra detail on my scenario. That just makes things so difficult too :P. In the end, it all seems to go back to just experimenting with your body (within reason). A good health-educated person would be a great help to interpret responses correctly. I don't think there is enough of that which is why people can reach these really weird conclusions.

Well I said you don't need to, not that you couldn't. If visualizing energy flows helps you control muscle tone and movement flow while doing martial arts, nothing wrong with that. But the same visualization will work even if you don't really believe in it and use it as a technique.
Yea k then exactly ;D. Kinda read the mysticism part and left out the rest :-[


Don't we still know like barely anything (relatively) about the brain or is it actually pretty well understood?

We really know quite a lot about the brain, especially for things that the average person might think mysterious (often the harder questions are the more detailed and fundamental ones).
A lot of these are things we were able to learn by looking at the weird changes that happen from brain injuries.
For example things like people with separated left and right sides of the brain, weird situations where thoughts or colors actually get wired into other senses too so colors and shapes start having a taste, or from multiple personality disorders, brain injuries that force other parts of the brain to compensate and force people to relearn things anew etc.
Yet other clues came from interesting demonstrations like optical illusions.

We also learned a lot from various effects of neurotransmitters on mood, thoughts and performance, and even of various unexpected side effects of other drugs, like anti-depressants that completely prevent dreaming, or things like date-rape drugs, alchool abuse or even electrical shocks that erase short-term memory (sort of like the fictional "men in black" portable memory erasers).

Other more fundamental details have come from animal studies, although some of these are not very pretty... In one of my graduate level neurobiology classes they showed us a kitten that was trained to do complex counting and coordination tasks, which was very cool; then just when you were about to say "I wish I could have a pet that smart", they showed the same cat looking a bit more unkempt and said "here is the same cat after chemical lobotomy of specific areas of the cerebellum, as you can see it can still understand the task but as hard as it tried it can no longer coordinate its movements properly", which was kinda sad to see and a bit unexpected at the moment hehe :(

Basically we know very well how each cell in the brain acts, and we know the mechanisms that shape it, form new memories, consolidate knowledge, make connections etc and we can trace and explain pretty much any behavior.
But it's still a super mess of highly connected cells where little details can be very different and hard to map (since they can depend even on things like in which order you learned and memorize two facts), but ultimately the results are basically the same and generally well understood. It's also one of the fastest growing and exciting areas of research now, with new questions being raised and more and more advances helping to answer them often shortly after.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 05:38:13 AM »
I skimmed -- so excuse me if I repeat or seemingly totally ignore some things that were already said.

The random number generator with human psychokinetic powers or whatnot is total crap.  Sorry Jake, I just can't believe that crap.

In terms of raeki - I do believe it has "power" but nothing supernatural.  Physical contact has been proven to have a great effect on one's psyche.  Behold the power of a hug.  Being touched, or "laying of the hands", is nothing special -- humans are social animals -- as such, we enjoy interaction.  Human contact activates the pleasure and reward pathway.

I don't know who brought up untapped parts of the brain -- but this is another thing I agree with tombb on.  As you get better at doing something you think about it less and less -- this first transfers control from the cortex (conscious thought) to the mid or hind brain (motor control).  In many cases, some tasks don't even use the brain once you get good enough at them.  But how does this apply?  When you are really good at - say, piano, clean & jerk, back flips, whatever - you will find that you perform these tasks better when you forcibly DON'T think about them and clear your mind.  We are intelligent beings, unfortunately, and like to use our cortex -- but thats just another level on the processing that interferes with efficiency.  Compare this to your computer having to access your hard drive every time you click the mouse as opposed to keeping this totally separate from the hard drive and using only processing power.

Positive attitude, even from a scientific standpoint, will make or break a patient, salesman, date, friendship -- pretty much everything.  Positive attitude allows you to work harder, love more unconditionally, have a will to survive, and be closer to your friends.  Compare the positive vs. negative attitudes of your friends.  Hell, some nights I am having a terrible time at the bar and no one seems to want to be around me -- I then decide to just smile and "pretend" for 10 minutes that I want to be there and everything is OK.  Within 15 minutes I feel like I am the life of the party and usually have a great time for the rest of the night.  The power of a positive attitude will help you in everything.

To work on your positivity, I suggest you play "Mission: Mango" with your friends.
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Offline tombb

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 12:13:48 PM »
...
To work on your positivity, I suggest you play "Mission: Mango" with your friends.
I must admit you found something I don't know anything about... what's this Mission:Mango thing?
The only thing that comes to mind is the SNL sketch ("You can not have-a the mango!" ) hehe... :o

Offline Eric Kropp

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 12:39:42 PM »
I think genetics plays a big part in your ability to eat crappy and still be healthy.  My german teacher at school always tells us about her mother.  She has been smoking for 70 years, 1 1/2 packs a day, and is 89 years old with no coughing or any signs on smoking.  I think genetics determines if you can get away with things like this.  So while crappy food may make some people really unhealthy, I think that some people can live this way and not have as many negative effects.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 03:29:18 PM »
...
To work on your positivity, I suggest you play "Mission: Mango" with your friends.
I must admit you found something I don't know anything about... what's this Mission:Mango thing?
The only thing that comes to mind is the SNL sketch ("You can not have-a the mango!" ) hehe... :o

"Mission: Mango" is a game used to reduce negativity.  I learned it at the TX jam but I don't know where it came from.

Basically, negative words have code words:
Impossible = Mango
Banana = Never
Coconut = Can't

You can add other words and codewords as well for other things aside from negativity...Charlie added in that if you use the word "like" inappropriately you are also penalized.

When you say the word without the code word -- that is, if you say "That's impossible!" instead of "That's Mango!" you are punished.  Punishments I have seen are things like 10 pushups, 10 squats, etc for each infraction.  You don't need to do the punishment right away - but if you sleep on it, it doubles.  Watch for cat naps on trips after a long training day...

The point is that it makes you be very conscious about being negative and helps your positivity by removing negative words from your though process.  It is easier to remove them than to think around them by being cognizant of replacing them with a code word.
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Offline TraceuseDS

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 03:44:02 PM »
Haha, I think I like your version better. In ours, there aren't any codewords. You just have to do pushups if you say any of the forbidden words. :P
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 03:47:04 PM by TraceuseDS »
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 03:55:07 PM »


The point is that it makes you be very conscious about being negative and helps your positivity by removing negative words from your though process.  It is easier to remove them than to think around them by being cognizant of replacing them with a code word.

He says that...but really it's just hilarious to make someone do push ups   :P

Offline tombb

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Re: The power of the mind?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 06:34:43 PM »
...
To work on your positivity, I suggest you play "Mission: Mango" with your friends.
I must admit you found something I don't know anything about... what's this Mission:Mango thing?
The only thing that comes to mind is the SNL sketch ("You can not have-a the mango!" ) hehe... :o

"Mission: Mango" is a game used to reduce negativity.  I learned it at the TX jam but I don't know where it came from.

Basically, negative words have code words:
Impossible = Mango
Banana = Never
Coconut = Can't
Ah I see.
But what do you do if something is actually truly mango, even theoretically, and you just physically coconut do it?  Or do you banana talk about those types of subjects in the first place?
It seems that in those cases it's not really a matter of being negative or self-defeating but just being accurate in order to move on to better solutions so you wouldn't need to use these strategies... Anyways, I see how it could work or be fun, it's similar to a drinking game except you probably coconut catch people making mistakes as often if they are banana drunk.