Author Topic: How many calories is safe?  (Read 2450 times)

Offline tombb

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Karma: +59/-34
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2009, 09:46:05 AM »
Tombb: If I may, where did you get that 16-30 number?
By US law all ingredients are listed in order sorted by amount. So you can estimate the amount of one ingredient by looking at its position, in this case it was placed between two other ingredients with listed quantities, 30 micrograms and 16 micrograms.

Offline Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2009, 09:48:10 AM »
If your diet is sound and you are at a good place with body comp, finish your bottle of centrum and switch over to a better multivitamin, if you can.  Centrum is like the bottom of the barrel, but its good to get people used to taking them so they get used to taking pills in the morning...and if you are going to take one, it should be a multi-vit!

A generic brand, say, from Vitamin Shoppe/GNC/Vitamin World etc should be a fine next step up.  Examine the ingredients on the brand you choose.  You will see Centrum has a lot of ingredients that suck (like "modified corn starch") so you will want to switch to one that doesn't have anything that is blatantly obviously bad for you to start.

Get intimate with your ingredients sections!
I'll have to strongly disagree with this.

There can be better vitamins, in terms of additional ingredients etc, but definitely centrum is not bad in any way, especially not for the reason you mention.
Corn starch is -NOT- a bad thing. Some people might not like the word 'corn'. It's not even really 'corn'-like, it's just plain starch, which chemically is just a chain of connected glucose molecules, which are something your body absolutely needs and can put to very good use.

But in particular, look at the amounts!

The amount of starch in each pill is somewhere between 16 and 30 -MICRO-grams. That's less than you could really see with the naked eye. Your brain would have already burned up that glucose just reading this sentence.  Plus it's obviously used for some practical purpose in assembling the pill itself rather than being used for it's almost negligible nutritional effect.

From a look at the ingredients, I would actually rate centrum or any generic imitation of it higher than GNC or similar, which are also unnecessarily more expensive.

On the other hand, if you have the money for it I would instead recommend choosing vitamins based on actual relevant factors, like time-release variants (very useful for non liposoluble vitamins), particular variants of minerals that are more absorbable, additional ingredients like provitamins, antioxidants etc.

???
!!!

You don't think bioavailability is important?

Pregeletanized Corn Starch, Modified Food Starch, Alcohols, Dyes, Sucrose (processed sugar), Maltodextrin (sugar), Hydrogenated Palm Oil....this is a list of respectable ingredients?  I didn't go into detail and only mentioned one because, well, I didn't want to :P  Any amount of these in the diet over "0g" is too much, imho.  These ingredients is why Centrum is dirt cheap.

I say to start with centrum for a few reasons:
1) It's cheap
2) It is better than nothing
3) It gets people started off into the habit of taking pills

Most of my methodologies (training, diet, etc) involve progression and "graduation".  Once you got your diet on lock, like it sounds like you do, it is time to branch out and find out more information on other supplements that might be better for you than centrum in the long run.




Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2009, 09:53:01 AM »
One other thing is that these vitamins are not made for people like us.  We need more vitamins than the normal person and even 10 Centrums wouldn't cover our needs on a daily basis.  We need more vitamin C, more iodine, more zinc, more magnesium...more of a lot of things.
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline tombb

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Karma: +59/-34
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2009, 10:16:33 AM »
...On the other hand, if you have the money for it I would instead recommend choosing vitamins based on actual relevant factors, like time-release variants (very useful for non liposoluble vitamins), particular variants of minerals that are more absorbable, additional ingredients like provitamins, antioxidants etc.
...
You don't think bioavailability is important?
I think bioavailability is good, that's why I said so. Why are you quoting the text where I specifically said so and then try to imply I say otherwise?
Having said that, all ingredients in centrum are plenty bioavailable, although as I said you can pay more to have even better.


Pregeletanized Corn Starch, Modified Food Starch, Alcohols, Dyes, Sucrose (processed sugar), Maltodextrin (sugar), Hydrogenated Palm Oil....this is a list of respectable ingredients?  I didn't go into detail and only mentioned one because, well, I didn't want to :P  Any amount of these in the diet over "0g" is too much, imho. These ingredients is why Centrum is dirt cheap.
I totally disagree with this. Saying that -microscopic- quantities of these perfectly normal molecules used in packaging are bad is just completely inconsistent with reality, physiology and biochemistry.
Think of the healthiest natural foods you can think of (fruits and vegetables for example) and they will contain way more of the same exact molecules that make up starch, sugar, and fats you listed.

Physiologically there is absolutely no way that these small amounts of perfectly ok nutrients are detrimental in ANY way.

The reason why these are usually 'bad' in a diet is because they are taken in -large amounts- (Hundreds of Millions times greater) -in place- of alternatively better nutrients (essential fats etc).

As far as different amounts for athletes, that's true, basically different metabolic reactions like energy conversion need more vitamin Bs, and you need more antioxidant vitamins like C, more minerals for electrolyte balance etc. Normal Centrum and such are balanced for the average person and activity.  But the extra food you eat also has many of those nutrients, so something like centrum can still cover your ground (some useful minerals are hard to find in normal food because of soil conditions etc so a pill covers your basis there), and luckily healthy foods that contain energy also usually contain vitamin Bs and antioxidants, and so forth.
But yes getting a more sports-oriented formulation would be a valid reason to pay a bit more for more expensive brands of vitamins. Looking for one pill that doesn't have a microscopic amount of sugar (way less than 1 calorie anyways) would instead not be a good criteria (if you did that with food you could not eat any fruits or vegetables or dairy or honey etc).

Offline Chris Salvato

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3897
  • Karma: +326/-63
  • Eat. Move. Improve.
    • View Profile
    • Eat. Move. Improve.
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2009, 10:26:53 AM »
...On the other hand, if you have the money for it I would instead recommend choosing vitamins based on actual relevant factors, like time-release variants (very useful for non liposoluble vitamins), particular variants of minerals that are more absorbable, additional ingredients like provitamins, antioxidants etc.
...
You don't think bioavailability is important?
I think bioavailability is good, that's why I said so. Why are you quoting the text where I specifically said so and then try to imply I say otherwise?
Having said that, all ingredients in centrum are plenty bioavailable, although as I said you can pay more to have even better.


Pregeletanized Corn Starch, Modified Food Starch, Alcohols, Dyes, Sucrose (processed sugar), Maltodextrin (sugar), Hydrogenated Palm Oil....this is a list of respectable ingredients?  I didn't go into detail and only mentioned one because, well, I didn't want to :P  Any amount of these in the diet over "0g" is too much, imho. These ingredients is why Centrum is dirt cheap.
I totally disagree with this. Saying that -microscopic- quantities of these perfectly normal molecules used in packaging are bad is just completely inconsistent with reality, physiology and biochemistry.
Think of the healthiest natural foods you can think of (fruits and vegetables for example) and they will contain way more of the same exact molecules that make up starch, sugar, and fats you listed.

Physiologically there is absolutely no way that these small amounts of perfectly ok nutrients are detrimental in ANY way.

The reason why these are usually 'bad' in a diet is because they are taken in -large amounts- (Hundreds of Millions times greater) -in place- of alternatively better nutrients (essential fats etc).

As far as different amounts for athletes, that's true, basically different metabolic reactions like energy conversion need more vitamin Bs, and you need more antioxidant vitamins like C, more minerals for electrolyte balance etc. Normal Centrum and such are balanced for the average person and activity.  But the extra food you eat also has many of those nutrients, so something like centrum can still cover your ground (some useful minerals are hard to find in normal food because of soil conditions etc so a pill covers your basis there), and luckily healthy foods that contain energy also usually contain vitamin Bs and antioxidants, and so forth.
But yes getting a more sports-oriented formulation would be a valid reason to pay a bit more for more expensive brands of vitamins. Looking for one pill that doesn't have a microscopic amount of sugar (way less than 1 calorie anyways) would instead not be a good criteria (if you did that with food you could not eat any fruits or vegetables or dairy or honey etc).


I guess we can agree to disagree here -- microscopic quantities can have profound impacts, imho.  Microscopic quantities make the difference between deficiency/disease and wellness in a lot of substances.  These are substances proven to be bad for you - so why make them acceptable in any quantity?
 
They should be avoided -- but if they were THAT bad I wouldn't have recommended Centrum in the first place.  Prolonged use isn't desirable - especially when, if you spend maybe a dollar more per bottle and do some research - you can get the same micronutrient profile elsewhere without any of the negative aspects of this brand - no matter how large or small.
Eat. Move. Improve.
My Training Log

The little I know I owe to my ignorance.
—Orville Mars

Offline tombb

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Karma: +59/-34
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2009, 10:46:42 AM »
I guess we can agree to disagree here -- microscopic quantities can have profound impacts, imho.  Microscopic quantities make the difference between deficiency/disease and wellness in a lot of substances. 
Microscopic quantities of certain things (vitamins, minerals for example) do have profound impacts. The molecules you listed however are absolutely not in that category. Additional microscopic quantities of sugar, or water for that matter, do not have any practical effect.

These are substances proven to be bad for you - so why make them acceptable in any quantity?
 
They should be avoided -- but if they were THAT bad I wouldn't have recommended Centrum in the first place.  Prolonged use isn't desirable - especially when, if you spend maybe a dollar more per bottle and do some research - you can get the same micronutrient profile elsewhere without any of the negative aspects of this brand - no matter how large or small.
As I mentioned these have -not- been proven to be bad, rather all the scientific evidence shows the opposite, they are well-known to be good for you unless in excess or replacement of other things (just like water is bad if in excess) and your body will even produce them as needed even if you don't ingest them.

When you ingest starch it breaks down into glucose, same for sucrose, etc. When you ingest a green pepper or an onion it also breaks down into glucose and other things, by the time they get to your bloodstream there is absolutely no difference between a molecule of glucose coming from a centrum pill or an onion, except that the number coming from a centrum pill is so low it's inconsequential.

So again, all the scientific evidence clearly shows it's not that these molecules are bad, but as I said they are not to be taken in excessive amounts and should not replace other more essential and useful nutrients (neither is a risk at all with centrum pills).

Now, if centrum contained, say, butane, then I would agree that's bad, it's a toxic compound with no good biological function other than helping you get cancer.  But that's quite different from arguing that the most useful and common sugar molecule on the planet, which your body will even create or store as needed, is bad.

Offline Bret [Soundcrafter]

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Karma: +5/-2
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2009, 08:32:12 PM »
Now, if centrum contained, say, butane, then I would agree that's bad, it's a toxic compound with no good biological function other than helping you get cancer.  But that's quite different from arguing that the most useful and common sugar molecule on the planet, which your body will even create or store as needed, is bad.

Ironically, McNuggets contain butane, as do Kellogg's snack bars or whatever those shit things are. Look for THBQ. Then die laughing.

Offline tombb

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
  • Karma: +59/-34
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2009, 11:05:38 PM »
Now, if centrum contained, say, butane, then I would agree that's bad, it's a toxic compound with no good biological function other than helping you get cancer.  But that's quite different from arguing that the most useful and common sugar molecule on the planet, which your body will even create or store as needed, is bad.

Ironically, McNuggets contain butane, as do Kellogg's snack bars or whatever those shit things are. Look for THBQ. Then die laughing.
Actually that's incorrect. TBHQ is an antioxidant used for oil. I am not sure if it's used by McDonalds specifically other than it's used in oil in general and McDonalds uses oil.

It's -NOT- the same as Butane, completely different formula, completely different chemical. It's more alike something like Co-enzyme Q10 or similar antioxidant/vitamins, except it's not as good but it's cheaper and works well as a food preservative.

In normal doses (especially the very low doses used in food as antioxidant) it does not cause any problem and in fact actually helps prevent some cancers (it has been shown to have a chemoprotective role, as you would expect from antioxidants).
In excess it -could-cause problems including potentially cancer, just like most things, but it would be very difficult to get it in excess, you would become morbidly obese from the fat before you ever had any side-effect from this antioxidant.

It's perfectly fine, and it's probably in every bottle of oil you have at home, listed as E319 or generically as 'antioxidants'. Consuming spoiled fats, on the other hand, has much more marked health consequences.

Offline Soundcrafter

  • Oryctolagus Cuniculus
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: How many calories is safe?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2009, 03:02:38 PM »
Damn, my sources were way off...