Author Topic: Analysis of peanuts  (Read 2260 times)

Offline Patrick Yang

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Analysis of peanuts
« on: December 03, 2008, 08:37:31 PM »
Chris has advised against eating peanuts in the past, or at least advising to use actual nuts in their place.  Why is this?  How do peanuts compare nutritionally against nuts, seeds, and other legumes?
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 09:20:22 PM »
Quote from: Robb Wolf
Peanuts actually have a nice fatty acid profile for the most part, mainly Mono-unsaturated. The problem with peanuts is that as a legume they carry a potent load of lectins that have a high atherogenic potential. Loren Cordain looks at the atherogenic potential of peanuts in this paper:

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles...%20Article.pdf

Atherogenic - developmental process of atheromatous (see definition below) plaques

Atheroma - an accumulation and swelling (-oma) in artery walls that is made up of cells (mostly macrophage cells), or cell debris, that contain lipids (cholesterol and fatty acids), calcium and a variable amount of fibrous connective tissue. [Wikipedia]


Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 10:02:30 PM »
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles...%20Article.pdf

Thanks for the quick reply.  I'm having trouble with this link, though.  Doesn't work for me.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Offline Chris Salvato

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Offline tombb

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 02:07:45 AM »
I am really not sold on negative effects of peanuts.

First off I agree that spoiled moldy foods are bad and you shouldn't eat them. Aspergillus is particularly bad as people mentioned because of aflatoxins, and you don't really see it with the naked eye.
But you would always easily know whether it's there or not. If you buy peanuts in an industrialized country, they are mold free, the container they are in is sealed to prevent moisture from getting in.
If however you open them, then don't eat them within the first couple of weeks, and then leave peanuts in a dark and humid place for a long time, and later find them again, just throw them away, don't risk it. If it was a bunch of apples or oranges they would all be moldy by now, and you should assume the same possibly happened to those peanuts.
Follow this, and you can consume as many peanuts as you want and never worry about aflatoxins or other mycotoxins.

The next thing is the link to someone getting indigestion from suddenly eating half a jar of 'organic' peanut butter, which is supposed to somehow prove that they must be bad for you.
My first thought was, half a jar of peanut butter in one sitting? You should be getting sick, I mean especially if you were coming from a low-fat diet, your body only produces enough lipase and other enzymes as you usually need. That's like a person on a normal diet suddenly eating 5 sticks of butter, and then wondering why they have indigestion and why most of that fat is passing through their digestive system undigested and giving them the ol' Olestra effect...
Never assume that if you have trouble digesting something you are not used to it must mean that it was bad for you. It may or may not regardless of that. People rescued from concentration camps couldn't tolerate more than the most miniscule amounts of food, any food, because of the prolonged starvation. That doesn't mean that all food is bad for you. It just means that you need to produce various enzymes in sufficient quantities to properly digest various foods, and making sudden changes has that type of side-effect.

The final thing is whether fats in peanuts can give you atherosclerosis. This is based mostly on peanut oil (not whole peanuts), but people care a lot about peanut oil because it's apparently very commonly used in asian and developing countries. But the evidence is still mixed, for example, look at
Alderson LJ, Hayes KC, Nicolasi RJ. Peanut oil reduces diet-induced atherosclerosis in cynomolgus monkeys. Atherosclerosis 1986;6:465-474.
and
Pearson TA, Etherton TD, Moriarty K, Reed R, Kris-Etherton PM. High-MUFA diets with peanuts-peanut butter or peanut oil lower total cholesterol and LDL-C identically to a Step 2 Diet but
eliminate the triglyceride increase. Presented at the Experimental Biology Meeting, 1998.
and the more recent 2006 journal article
Effects of peanut oil load on energy expenditure, body composition, lipid profile, and appetite in lean and overweight adults.
Basically in all these studies the 'bad' cholesterol lipoprotein was lowered, and diet-induced atherosclerosis was -reduced-, not increased.

I would say whole peanuts are better than peanut oil (they actually reduce your appetite/cravings and can actually help people -lose- weight), plus I tend to prefer different types of oil for cooking, like extra virgin olive oil, although I guess peanut oil can handle a lot higher temperatures so it's probably easier to cook with it, I am not an expert on cooking.
I imagine part of the difference people might observe is based on difference between well-regulated or at least self-regulated consumption vs forced administration, so while it's interesting that rabbits get different types of leasions with peanut oil vs other vegetable oils (fibromuscular vs fatty lesions respectively), I don't know that this translates to anything bad about peanut oil, for example it could just mean that it's so good at avoiding fatty plaque lesions (which you get from overfeeding with other oils) that you see the other possible outcome.
The bottom line however is, you shouldn't overfeed so much on ANY type of oil anyways, who cares if a rabbit develops ARTErosclerosis (from any other oil) or ATHErosclerosis (from peanut oil). Monkeys are more similar to people than rabbits anyways so it might also be a rabbit-specific thing (like how crazy is it that dogs don't get to eat chocolate).

Comments? Thoughts? Feedback?

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 07:10:21 AM »
Comments? Thoughts? Feedback?

I would reall like to provide you with all 3 but your response was too massive.  I am already WAY behind on work and I don't have the time to read, analyze and respond.

I suggest you bring your questions to the Performance Menu (www.performancemenu.com/forums) and see what the highly intellectual people there have to say since they usually have more time and knowledge to analyze a post like that.

Offline tombb

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 11:35:07 AM »
Comments? Thoughts? Feedback?

I would reall like to provide you with all 3 but your response was too massive.  I am already WAY behind on work and I don't have the time to read, analyze and respond.

I suggest you bring your questions to the Performance Menu (www.performancemenu.com/forums) and see what the highly intellectual people there have to say since they usually have more time and knowledge to analyze a post like that.
Can you (or someone else here) maybe do it for me, if you already have an account there, and maybe tell them to cross-post any valid argument here? I wouldn't want to have to start checking two forums if I make another account, one is already distracting enough ;)

As you can imagine since my answers especially on technical verifications/refutations are massive, and do take me at least as much to write as they take others to read them.  And like you I am making sure it's not time taken from my work and research.
I don't mind of course because it's important to figure this stuff out conclusively, I wouldn't want to misguidedly blame peanuts or other things because of popular misconceptions or myths.

But just from looking at the post you linked from that forum (which nobody ever corrected there) I get the impression that I might get caught up having to write long corrections there too which would take too much time :P

Besides, Chris, I would think in reading my comments on this you would want to find out about why exactly this idea about peanuts being bad didn't get checked more, or whether there is any actual argument that still stands on its own to support it but hasn't been discussed yet, since I assume you are interested in finding out whether or not it's true too at some point.  :(

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 12:21:53 PM »
Yeah, at some point -- but i have a really full plate right now and peanuts are on the bottom of my list :P

The people at PMenu are way more in depth about this kind of thing.

If I were at your level of knowledge and ability, I would post there as opposed to here, if you had to choose one.  They go in depth on a lot of studies very often and I think you would benefit from speaking with them more than speaking with me here...because I am not as knowledgable at all. 

People with Ph. Ds, MDs, DOMs, NDs, etc all post there quite regularly so you get a wide range of knowledge and insights.

EDIT - If I do get a chance, I will make sure to bring the question up.  I am fairly certain there is more to this story aside from alfatoxin.  Also, peanut oil is a major component of actual peanuts...and peanuts very makeup is very similar to poison oak which puts people at a great risk of developing a fatal allergy that can just sneak up on you.  Peanut allergies are the leading cause of food related death in the nation (maybe world)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 01:05:54 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 01:05:26 PM »
But just from looking at the post you linked from that forum (which nobody ever corrected there) I get the impression that I might get caught up having to write long corrections there too which would take too much time :P

I would be delighted to see you post your "corrections" there.  I put the quotes because I am sure that the people there will be glad to see your view point and will likely be able to defend their view point (or accommodate their view point) when contrasting it to yours....it won't necessarily be a "correction" since they are more well versed than I am.


Offline tombb

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 07:52:14 PM »
But just from looking at the post you linked from that forum (which nobody ever corrected there) I get the impression that I might get caught up having to write long corrections there too which would take too much time :P

I would be delighted to see you post your "corrections" there.  I put the quotes because I am sure that the people there will be glad to see your view point and will likely be able to defend their view point (or accommodate their view point) when contrasting it to yours....it won't necessarily be a "correction" since they are more well versed than I am.


The "corrections" I refer to are ones that people would make -regardless of their stand and conclusions on an issue-. 

In the post you referenced from that forum, the OP titled it "more proof that peanuts are garbage" and tried to claim that his one time indigestion from eating a sudden unusually high amount of fat, which would normally result in an indigestion regardless of food type as I explained, said something bad about peanuts (it doesn't).

Knowledgeable people on that forum should have caught it and corrected it but didn't, perhaps because it wasn't disagreeing with their views, but that's a bad way to go because even for things that are true it is never a good idea to add crazy reasons which are incorrect and unnecessary (e.g.,"cheese is good for you also because it makes your lost teeth regrow after you turn 30 (wrong/crazy and unnecessary, cheese is good for other valid reasons)")

They should have said something like "well, no, that's actually normal and not any proof or reason for this, and you should avoid indigestions in general.  The actual valid reason we think peanuts are bad is much more logically sound and is ..."

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 08:28:51 PM »
lol jeez, im sorry I posted it as a small anecdote...after i posted it I realized you were going to have that very critique but alas, i was too late to remove it :P

the people there are GROSSLY aware of the facts you are stating, it was just a friendly, short discussion....trust me, post there if you don't believe me.  your analysis will get ripped to shreds :)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 08:31:45 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline tombb

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2008, 09:11:42 PM »
lol jeez, im sorry I posted it as a small anecdote...after i posted it I realized you were going to have that very critique but alas, i was too late to remove it :P

the people there are GROSSLY aware of the facts you are stating, it was just a friendly, short discussion....trust me, post there if you don't believe me.  your analysis will get ripped to shreds :)
Since you used the term ripped to shreds I should point out that is never what happens in scientific discussions, and tends to fit more with rhetoric popularity competition with a feel more like:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154479
If you find yourself that way after hearing one side of a discussion, it's more likely because they used psychological and advertisement (and dance?) tactics rather than actual facts and reasons  ::)

If all science and thinking did was shredding things they wouldn't be of much use to anything. You should expect that if people are really interested in knowledge and correct thinking they should end a discussion with all points of a critical analysis addressed and resolved, and leave with a better explanation which is not subject to the shortcomings that were pointed out in the previous round of critical analysis.

Analysis statements don't get ripped to shreads in science, they get clarified, corrected, or improved upon based on well-reasoned arguments and additional supporting evidence.

If there is a legitimate concern, it would be addressed by a legitimate answer to address it rather than say ignore it or trying to dismiss it. If an interpretation is given, you respond by showing an example of where it doesn't fit the data or known mechanisms and proposing a better interpretation.

That's exactly what I have been doing as well, I haven't been ripping people's explanations to shreds and ignoring them, but simply looking more carefully at the ones presented so far, explaining where there were problems and faulty inferences or what was not supported by evidence, and presenting more sound interpretations and more supporting data.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2008, 09:18:02 PM »
ahh jeez!

you took what i said much too literally...

If you don't want to post on PMenu where people can discuss things with you as you wish to discuss them, then don't.  It just sounds like you are making that decision based off a prejudice.

Trust me, PMenu is the kind of forum you are looking for...I am not knowledgeable enough, nor do I alone have the time to get into these extremely engaging discussions.  People on the PMenu will be able to better discuss these with you and I honestly think if you post there we will ALL learn more because I read there all the time -- I won't have to do my own research since I can go off the research done by DOZENS of other people there with more qualifications and experience than I have.

Offline tombb

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2008, 09:45:26 PM »
I never implied anything negative about that forum or people posting there, and it's not the reason why I am reluctant to make a second forum account and have to start checking, reading and posting in two places (that is the main reason, and it seems like someone else cross-posting would be less work and less long-term commitment).

I only mentioned the example of the post you referenced just to clarify what I meant by corrections, I would never use it as an argument to discount other people's views (I analyze arguments, not people), only to correct that particular point.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Analysis of peanuts
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2008, 09:48:52 PM »
there are few people here with much experience, and those that do (like me) are still limited.  you will just benefit more by posting there as opposed to here, for the type of discussions you are interested in, imho...

the potential to teach here, at your level, is great...
the potential to learn here, at your level, is not so great...

The opposite is true at pmenu.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 09:50:41 PM by Chris Salvato »