Topic: Parkour and Chiropractic

[Chris Salvato]

3) Pseudoscience: I've beaten this to death. The ultimate question in science = PROVE IT.

Seriously, if you think that chiropractic isn't a proven practice you are just a moron. What makes you think that the alignment and connections between you bodies nerves and the such not make things work better. For gods sake, it is the same principle as a garden hose, kink it and the water doesn't flow through it, same with the blood vessels and nerves of the body. I mean you wouldn't walk around with dislocated shoulder, and that's the same principle, things out of place.

You need to get a clue are learn to stop throwing rocks at the sun

I don't think that we need to go back and forth with insults here.  Wasabe is clearly not a moron.  He made plenty of great and compelling points.  He even said that his comments may come off a bit brash but that was not how he intended them and the cause of this was because he was short on time...

While I would also say his tone was a bit too harsh for the point he was trying to make, I do think he has the best of intentions here.

I do think that the Pseudo-science argument is a bit lacking, myself.  Some things can only be proven little by little.  Low carb diets, for example, have been beneficial for millenia -- only recently, however, have we seen actual data to support this.  The same goes for fasting.  As I said above, we still have no idea how anesthesia works.  The fact that we know little about these things does not make them less useful.  I am actually at a loss for what needs to be proven(?).  Chiropractic techniques do work...even if we do need to find out why.

[Rafe]

I know there is an argument going on here allready and I don't want to get into that but I wanted to bring up my own problems with the article.

1. The medicalization of movement. The way the article is framed from the start 'Parkour is beyond the human bodies natural capabilities if you want to practice you need medical help' is pure straight out fallacious marketing. Parkour is nothing more then the practice of the human bodies natural locomotive abilities. If practiced properly it is one of the safest physical activities out there far safer then sports which involved interacting with resisting oponents or which involves accelerators of the human body beyond its natural ability which includes almost all other sports. If people are developing health issues due to parkour what we need is not to get them all chiropractors what we need is find better approaches to teaching and learning parkour to rehabilitating the domesticated fat, and physical atrophied majority of species. This idea that for human being to behave in the ways that are natural it needs some sort of medical clearance drives me crazy. I believe it was frank forencich who said before engaging in any program of sedentary living consult your doctor, but I think he still had it wrong because most doctors in my experience are sedentary, obese and grossly unhealthy themselves and this includes chiropractors. Consult history would be my perscription. By starting your article there your engaging in the classic marketing idea of to creating a need and perception of need before it exists why should a human need chiropractic, internal medicine, acupuncture whatever just to practice simple movement? Did our paleolithic ancestors have to consult a team of doctors, chiropractors, physical therapists, and psychologists before running down game or away from a predator. This mindset of dependence on doctors, chiropractors etc who as you admit yourself Ken have only the foggiest understanding of the body just drives me crazy.

2. False advertising, I have seen chiropractors my whole life and never ran into one who properly understood exercise or prescribed it. I have only found a couple who knew how to deal with problems that originated in muscular systems instead of the spine or joints and understood how to distinguish between such problems. A chiropractor who understand how do deal with the muscular system(through massage, ART, Rolfing) who was educated in how to physically develop the body and solve problems through movement training would be amazing tell me where I can find one in my area Seattle washington.

In my experience if you have a broken limb or ripped ligament or tendon see a surgeon, if you had an infection or virus see an MD, if you have kneck or back pain see a chiropractor or masseuse, if have pain in more distal joints or in muscle groups or if your movement is dysfunctional see a PT. I don't trust any of these specialization farther then I can throw them when they are talking outside of that speciality.

To me if you wanted to write a really useful article on chiro for traceur it would not come across as clearly a marketing attempt it would try to show what chiropractors have success fixing, how those expertise can help traceurs what problems to take to a chiropractor and how to find one who can help you because their are tons of bad chiros out there.


In my perfect world medicine would be grounded in and understanding of human nature from a evolutionary standpoint it would look to prevent problems by promoting natural patterns of movement, diet, and stress managment and it would grounded in looking for dysfunctional patterns in one of these areas in diagnosis and in correcting these patterns in treatment.

[wasabe4885]

I choose my words very carefully (which leads to many, numerous words, as you've all seen). My arguments regard chiropractic as a whole, and I try not to refer to you, PKChiro, directly because I can only go off of what you've written (it's why I held off on using the pronoun "you" as much as possible). I don't know your methods. I don't know how you are in a clinic. It's a narrow line because, well, you're a chiropractor. I understand that an attack on the profession could be taken as a direct attack on you, but what I'm trying to get at is more like Russell Peters pointing out Indian people's shortcomings even though he's Indian. And the same goes for me because I'm similarly adamant about finding the truth and people being truthful. Fact is, you sound like a smart, helpful kind of guy, and I still wouldn't mind chillin' with you at a jam. Where you and I disagree is on how short chiropractic shortcomings really are and what are the consequences of those shortcomings. This isn't by any means brand new material because chiropractic has been taking hits since it's conception. The arguments do have basis, and I've clearly written the reasons for my skepticism (albeit sometimes scathingly - for this I'll take full responsibility). These are BY FAR the longest posts I've ever made in my life. I normally avoid the Parkour philosophy debates, but this topic regards truthfulness and people's health. I'm concerned about educating a population of young traceurs so they know the whole story before they decide for themselves. I hope others take the time to think, learn, and ask questions about this issue. Hell, ask questions while you're getting adjusted so long as you're thinking "why" rather than accepting "because". I could counter the most recent posts, but seeing how the view count is 400+, I'll assume I've somewhat succeeded in bringing attention to the issue. Hopefully more people will realize that there is a problem here. I wanted to go into the cold-cure thing some more, but I worry it's gonna lead into every other pathology in the world. I'll just provide a link for you guys to read that explains how chiropractors think they can improve people's immune response ( http://www.chirobase.org/06DD/chiroimmu.html ). With that, I'll step down from this soap box that's taken up more time and energy to write than any effort I ever put into a college essay. And thank you, Mr. Savato, for continuing to be an objective mind.

Peace to all.

[Ryan Ford]

It's good to see some good discussion going on here. In Ken's defense, he has been around parkour for over 5 years now and it has clearly made him see chiropractic with a unique perspective. There may be a lot of bad chiros out there, but being a fitness/exercise science enthusiast myself, I can say that Ken is one of the most knowledgeable and genuine people that I know. Thanks for participating everyone.

[Chris Salvato]

I know there is an argument going on here allready and I don't want to get into that but I wanted to bring up my own problems with the article.

1. The medicalization of movement. The way the article is framed from the start 'Parkour is beyond the human bodies natural capabilities if you want to practice you need medical help' is pure straight out fallacious marketing. Parkour is nothing more then the practice of the human bodies natural locomotive abilities. If practiced properly it is one of the safest physical activities out there far safer then sports which involved interacting with resisting oponents or which involves accelerators of the human body beyond its natural ability which includes almost all other sports. If people are developing health issues due to parkour what we need is not to get them all chiropractors what we need is find better approaches to teaching and learning parkour to rehabilitating the domesticated fat, and physical atrophied majority of species. This idea that for human being to behave in the ways that are natural it needs some sort of medical clearance drives me crazy. I believe it was frank forencich who said before engaging in any program of sedentary living consult your doctor, but I think he still had it wrong because most doctors in my experience are sedentary, obese and grossly unhealthy themselves and this includes chiropractors. Consult history would be my perscription. By starting your article there your engaging in the classic marketing idea of to creating a need and perception of need before it exists why should a human need chiropractic, internal medicine, acupuncture whatever just to practice simple movement? Did our paleolithic ancestors have to consult a team of doctors, chiropractors, physical therapists, and psychologists before running down game or away from a predator. This mindset of dependance on doctors, chiropractors etc who as you admit yourself Ken have only the foggiest understanding of the body just drives me crazy.

2. False advertising, I have seen chiropractors my whole life and never ran into one who properly understand exercise or prescribed it. I have only found a couple who knew how to deal with problems that originated in muscular systems instead of the spine or joints and understood how to distinguish between such problems. A chiropractor who understand who knew how do deal with muscular system(through massage, ART, Rolfing) who was educated in how to physical develop the body and solve problems through movement training would be amazing tell me where I can find one in my area.

In my experience if you have a broken limb or ripped ligament or tendon see a surgeon, if you had an infection or virus see an MD, if you have kneck or back pain see a chiropractor or masseuse, if have pain in more distal joints or in muscle groups or if your movement is dysfunctional see a PT. I don't trust any of these specialization farther then I can throw them when they are talking outside of that speciality.

To me if you wanted to write a really useful article on chiro for traceur it would come across as clearly a marketing attempt it would try to show what chiropractors have success fixing, how those expertise can help traceurs what problems to take to a chiropractor and how to find one who can help you because their are tons of bad chiros out there.


In my perfect world medicine would be grounded in and understanding of human nature from a evolutionary standpoint it would look to prevent problems by promoting natural patterns of movement, diet, and stress managment and it would grounded in looking for dysfunctional patterns in one of these areas in diagnosis and in correcting these patterns in treatment.

It sounds to me like your beef is not with Chiropractors but the shitty chiropractors you have seen your whole life.  Sorry to hear you have had such bad experience but you have probably been looking in the wrong places.  Just like with regular doctors, it is quite easy to keep going to really shitty ones without ever finding one that understands the demands of an athlete's lifestyle -- that is what we are, after all, more than the typical human -- we are athletes.

With regards to your point #1, I am far from compelled.  While I agree that our sport/discipline/lifestyle (whatever word you like at the moment to describe parkour..) can be extremely safe, it is beyond a shadow of a doubt VERY high impact.  Most of us in the states have been doing parkour for under 5 years.  The most experienced have been performing high impact parkour movements for 20.  Both of these time frames are very short and NO ONE in the WORLD has performed parkour throughout their whole life from the earliest stages of development like our prehistoric ancestors.  To think a 22 year old man like myself can just start training in parkour and that this will be the "natural order of things" is somewhat ludicrous.  I am 22 years behind the level of conditioning I need to be at to do what I want to do. 

Don't you think it is a bit ignorant to think that you can perform sport/sport movements for any significant length of time and never get injuries that need to be addressed or, in an ideal case, prevented?

Let's also not mention that we can't go back and ask our ancestors what they were feeling or what their most common injuries were.  I am sure if you were to examine the bushmen or our paleolithic counterparts you would see a fair share of untreated overuse injuries (e.g. tendinitis) that would likely never be cured - just tolerated - since the pain is manageable and just "flares up" never really gets too much in the way.

Any athlete, no matter what their sport, should be very intimate with their medical entourage.  You should have a good relationship with all of them - this is so that they understand the nature of your sport, understand what you need from them and understand what you are prone to.  A good doctor-athlete relationship allows for you to work in hormonal testings and a higher degree of intimacy with the "particulars".  For example, knee pain is going to mean a whole lot more to you than it would to your coach potato neighbor.  This is why it is important to find good doctors and/or chiros to make sure you get the most out of your training and your visits with them.

You even say this:

A chiropractor who understand how do deal with the muscular system(through massage, ART, Rolfing) who was educated in how to physically develop the body and solve problems through movement training would be amazing tell me where I can find one in my area Seattle washington.

Sounds to me like you believe chiropractic can be helpful but you have only had experience with shitty chiros.

Start here: http://www.activerelease.com/providersearch.asp

I have had a great experience finding my chiro that specialized in ART therapy from this site and we have made a lot of progress on my tendinitis.

As far as your beef with the article -- it is far from perfect...but nothing in our community is perfect yet.  We can only take steps in the right direction.

[David Glass]

I had two chiropracters misdiagnose my shoulder issues

They diagnosed me with CR tears when all I had was impingements. They never did MRIs, and basically had me do some movements to diagnose me.

The second guy kept asking me to come back for follow-ups, but after the second one, where I missed a day of work and all he did was ask me how I felt (and when I said "better" then all he did was say "keep up the treatment"), and then sent me back home after making sure the receptionist charged me $250

I just couldn't believe I learned more about what was actually going on through the internet than by visiting 2 different chiropracters.

And, although the treatments for CR tears and impingements are the same, I discovered that part of what was causing the issue was the fact that I slept with my arms overhead, something neither of them brought up (it was actually pointed out by the vet that does crossfit with me).

I know it's against all advice, but next time I'm just going to take Ibuprofen, and lay off the affected limbs... that's what they'll all tell you to do anyway

END RANT

[Ken PKChiro]

haha, well this HAS been a great discussion.

sorry wasabe if I got a bit irritated last post.  I've just dealt with so many people out to bash chiropractic just because, honestly, of ignorance.  Steve barrett for example.  please, don't ever use that as a resource.  there are a few societies that are very active out there who's sole purpose in life is to bash chiropractic.  spread rumors, stories etc etc.  I know recently in the last year, the CBP crew sued quackwatch for misinformation, and won.  a 58 million dollar lawsuit i think.  like you claim to be, objectivity is primary.  There are often people who from these societies wander forums and stirr up trouble for the sole purpose of attack.  I agree, that I simply don't have time to continue this, it has taken too much.

oh, and concerning my contributions in articles rafe:

"To me if you wanted to write a really useful article on chiro for traceur it would come across as clearly a marketing attempt it would try to show what chiropractors have success fixing, how those expertise can help traceurs what problems to take to a chiropractor and how to find one who can help you because their are tons of bad chiros out there. "

little disclaimer.  I have yet to charge any money for my services.  I have spent 4 years, 8am to pm, most weekends including, learning and teaching, studying and applying, for no money at all.  simply because I care.  I had one patient offer me money but besides that I have seen hundreds of patients so far without a single gain.  The reason I wrote these articles, and participate in parkour is because i have a passion for traceurs.  I have their best interest in mind.  And even if I had begun a clinic, i would be LOOSING money with traceurs.... adding that i have 150,000 plus in student loans from postgraduate ALONE.  this is about 20k more than the average MD... you could imagine the stress on starting a new business.  I only do it because i believe in what i do, and i believe in helping people.  sadly, there ARE many docs (as mentioned in the article) that are out for money.  but when you deal with humans, you deal with human flaws right?

that being said, my point is not shameless self promotion, but it is for the benefit of everyone who reads it.  providing the admittance that I barely understand the body....  anyway, there's a phrase.  "You don't know what you don't know, until you know, what you don't know."

In other words, you won't know how ignorant you are, until you've learned enough to see just how ignorant you really are.  that's what I'm saying bud.

specifically, all those things you would like to see in the article, I covered as best as I could already.  how to find a chiro.  what one does.  perhaps i would write a part 2 sometime.  but the general content is already there.

chris, thanks for your objectivity.  while we disagree on certain things, you have always been objective to a point that i personnally cannot admit to being.  obviously... haha.

glass:
sorry you had a bad experience.  i would mention though that 1.  shoulders are notoriously hard to diagnose.  2.  impingement is a name.  same with most diagnosis.  it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the cause of the problem.  some things for example myofascitis.  in other words... your muscles and fascia hurt and are inflammed.  that's all it means.  but people walk away thinking that because they have a name for things it means something.   it might not be the cause.

MRI would have cost you several thousand dollars.  you pay the doc for his time.  not his cure.  his attempt and not his promise.  do you really think ibuprofen will cure your problem?  yeah, sleeping with your arms overhead can aggrivate it, but why?  All I'm saying is that being content with a name, a "diagnosis" and knowing that it was caused by sleeping with your arms overhead is not enough.  well, not for me.  if your happy, I'm glad you found your "solution"

.  great discussions guys.  sorry for being crabby earlier.  And while we disagree wasabe, i believe that at the very least, provoking thoughts, provoking my considerations and criticisms of chiropractic (i have plenty, just as i have other medicines.  if PTs were to be under attack, i would probably argue for them just as fiercely), and sharing these thoughts can only be positive.  it is only when this lack of objectivity (which to some extent we ALL are) is masked as absolute truth that we have problems.  As long as we can continue to consider, and experiment, discuss, and share that we all can grow.

I would only say, don't limit yourself to what you've been taught.  in my own personal experience, there is a lot out there I don't understand.  and therefore a lot to learn.

[Rafe]

Ken I believe in chiropractic in the sense that I think it is very effective for certain problems. I am seeing a chiropractor to day as it happens. What I don't believe in is the idea that in order to live we need to constantly consult the medical profession of any kind. Marketing is all about creating perceived needs were their were none before. People have been living moving practicing sport for thousands of years and we managed to do it with you chiropractic up until very recently. Did we have injuries chronic and acute that chiropractic might have been beneficial for? Sure but that doesn't make chiropractic a need it makes it a convinence. With a good chiropractor you maybe able to avoid injuries more often, recover from them faster, and perform better overall I think that is quite possible and good and honest selling point for chiropractic. What I object what I think is infact a cancerous belief is that somehow working with chiropractor or MD or PT is somehow a necessary precursor to taking up training of any sort. If we want to be be healthy regularly practicing movement, eating well, getting good sleep and managing stress are our first priorities a chiropractor is nice adjunct to such an approach but it is only a necessity if you have specific problem that falls within their domain.

[Ken PKChiro]

That would be true in an ideal environment.  but here's a question...
were we exposed to 6000 plus chemicals per day in the paleolithic ages?
were we eating as much artifical foods, chemical additives and sugar?
were we eating as much carbohydrates?
was our air as toxic.  the beds we sleep in sprayed down in chemicals? the clothes we wear? 
did we walk on concrete?
did we wear shoes?
did we exercise as a method of survival?
did we take antibiotics?
... did we live as long?

who ever came up with the idea that "back in the day" we didn't have problems?

there is a reason chiropractors are on every major sports team.  our bodies are breaking down.  its called age.  homeostatis is the concept of fighting entropy, fighting against the aging process.  but you'll die.  sooner or later.  to argue that you can't die... well, its the curse of youth.  your body is breaking down too, but you have to keep it as ideally functioning as possible.

your body adapts, but an adaptation never replaces the original.  true, many problems are caused by the doctors themselves, but much good is coming from it as well.  just because you aren't aware of a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  like chris said, unless you have perfect technique, a perfect body, and a perfect environment, to say that you will never need a chiro with parkour is foolish.  because there is a learning curve to parkour.  and though movement is normal, the impact is not.  especially not with the other things in life nowadays wrecking our bodies.

[Rafe]

Ken nobody ever said we didn't have problems back in the day the point is we survived and often thrived without even an inkling of chiropractic, how many cultures have developed methods of spinal realignment therapies to answer medical problems, compared to those that used pharmeceutical plants, surgery and dentistry, as well as nutritional and exercise programs? Is it possible even likely that chiropractic is a very usefull adjunct to parkour training to help deal with back and kneck aches and to realign the body for optimal performance absolutely. What I take issue with which you keep skirting around is the fact you label chiropractic as a need a necessary precondition of parkour practice. That is what I object to as fallacious marketing.

I love your list of special problems we face in the modern world. I make many decisions in my life based on trying to avoid these unnatural stressors what I don't see is how Chiropractic is cure for any of the problems you named out.

Lets take another modern medicinal practice which our hunter foragers didn't have at all that I think is absolutely necessary in the modern world because of very specific and obvious cause. That would be dentistry. Our paleolithic ancestors did wear down their teeth and lose teeth due to accidents and that was hazard in life but most could expect to survive to the end of their natural life(50 to 60 years) with acceptable dental function and very few cavities or abscesses. However we have changed our diet significantly since that time. As soon as we switched to agriculture and high levels of grain consumption we started developing cavities and abscesses due to the additional sugars in our diet that plaque feeds off. It was not long until some form of dental medicine was invented we are very lucky that those crude methods have turned into the modern medical practice especially since the advent of processed sugar has compounded our dental problem. Here is an example were a medical practice is necessary adjunct to modern life because of specific way it differs from that of our ancestors.

What I have yet to see is convincing case for a specific problem that is novel in modern lives that chiropractic solves you offer a list of 10 modern living problems but most I don't even see how chiropractic could help and none seem to me like chiropractic would be the best cure. Its funny to me you fail to mention what I believe is probably the most likely cause for needing chiropractic which is our habit of sitting in chairs killing our core muscular function while at the same time forcing our spine into contorted postures which we hold for hours while repeating mindlessly repeative movements conditioning our muscles into terrible and contorted postures. If there was an argument for the necessity of chiropractic this is were I would start. Even then to me it would only be part of part of  holistic cure include massage stretching and corrective exercise and regular movement practice.

[Ken PKChiro]

Chiropractors are the best at facing these issues in our world today.  How does it apply?  very simple, stress causes release of cortisol... cortisol breaks stuff down, including ligaments.  destabilizing your spine, joints etc etc, making you more susceptible to injury.  less impact does more damage to your musckuloskeletal and spinal health.  Chiropractors take into account nutritional and exercise, and herbal etc etc.  anyway, i DO believe that chiropractic is necessary as a precondition to parkour practice.  How's that for skirting?

Those problems i stated were not saying that chiropractic is the cure.  i NEVER said that.  never never never never.  again, NEVER.  when did I say that?  stop assuming dude.  I said that with those stressors in life, you need chiropractic to help deal with the consequences of those things, NOT that it was the CURE to stressors.  that would be dumb.

anyway, i won't spend too much time, but the point your missing is the link between structure, chemical, and emotional.  ALL have links to each other.  we take drugs to affect our structural body (ie muscle relaxants), your posture changes due to emotional states(ie depression), and just the same, the structure of your body affects your emotions (standing up straight affects your happiness and/or confidence), and your structure affects your chemicals (nerves controling chemical releases).  THAT is what you don't understand.  I won't spend time proving it, but I never said chiropractic was a cure all.  but it does have serious effects, for example: http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/news/20070316/chiropractic-cuts-blood-pressure

While that doesn't represent all chiropractic, it represents SOME.  look up the actual studies yourself.  they've recieved millions in government funded grants to do this research, and are getting the same results.  structure influencing function....

I DO believe chiropractic to be a NECESSARY adjunct to atraceur's life.  but that's my belief.  you have your own beliefs, and we can both agree not to fight because of our different beliefs. but don't go throwing out accusations of statement please.  lets just plan to talk when we get a chance to meet.  and please read in context, my reply was in REPLY to the idea that we can't get hurt doing parkour because everything we are doing is "natural".  as if we are perfect and never make mistakes.  THAT is why i listed the stressors.

[Jon Fox]

don't hate on chiropractors they work wonders.

[Ken PKChiro]

and...rafe, I found the post .  It bugged me that I didn't remember our discussion!