Author Topic: Parkour and Chiropractic  (Read 4283 times)

Offline Ryan Ford

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Parkour and Chiropractic
« on: November 23, 2008, 10:03:08 PM »
Parkour and Chiropractic - http://parkourelements.com/safety/59/parkour-and-chiropractic

Please use this topic for any questions, advice, or discussion regarding the article.

Offline wasabe4885

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 07:54:14 PM »
I'm confused now. I saw an old PBS thing a couple weeks ago on chiropractics saying it wasn't a reliable form of alternative medicine. I'll see if I can find it.


::edit::
Good ol' public television: http://vvi.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=play220asf.html&query=chiropractic+ClipCategory%3Amedicine+ClipCategory%3Ahealth&squery=%2BClipID%3A4+%2BVideoAsset%3Apbssaf1210&inputField=undefined&ccstart=1297297&ccend=2231231&videoID=pbssaf1210

So....what's the consensus?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 08:18:19 PM by wasabe4885 »

Offline Casey Kandel

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 02:23:20 PM »
I recently went to a Chiropractor, not only did it make me feel better but it is also a good way to recieve info on ways to keep your body stronger.

Things I thought were just gonna happen in my body (my hips popping) my doctor told me exercises to do to keep it from happening plus other ideas to keep myself strong and help me progress.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 07:16:50 AM »
I'm confused now. I saw an old PBS thing a couple weeks ago on chiropractics saying it wasn't a reliable form of alternative medicine. I'll see if I can find it.


::edit::
Good ol' public television: http://vvi.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=play220asf.html&query=chiropractic+ClipCategory%3Amedicine+ClipCategory%3Ahealth&squery=%2BClipID%3A4+%2BVideoAsset%3Apbssaf1210&inputField=undefined&ccstart=1297297&ccend=2231231&videoID=pbssaf1210

So....what's the consensus?

There are good chiropractors and bad chiropractors -- just like there are good doctors and bad doctors.

I used to think chiropractic was a crock of shit -- until I started reading Ken's posts and realized there may be a basis to it.  After that I started seeing a chiro that did help me a bit, but nothing extreme.  When I got an injury in my knee that flared up, I saw a different chiro that specialized in trigger point therapy (active release techniques), I have had some really good results in only a month of time.

So is it unreliable?  Not to me, I have seen results that weren't immediate but rather quite long term.

I usually find the only people that complain that chiropractic is bullshit are the physical therapists who are losing business from them...but physical therapists have their place, as well.
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Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 12:10:19 PM »
so, here are the issues, I've posted these before but, this is as good a place to restate as any.

1.  Chiropractic is young- this means we have faced many challenges as we've "grown up"  opposition, and our own childish mistakes
2.  Chiropractic is preventative-  only recently have we begun to see through enough studies the dramatic effect of chiropractic on preventative health.  right now there isn't even a question to its effectiveness.  the proof being in the fact that insurance companies are covering it.  that means chiropractic has passed the most rigorous testing for being effective in saving money and preventing the need for other more heroic versions of medicine as insurance companies are the most stingy of them all ;)
3.  Chiropractic is clinical-  this means that most of chiropractic's results are everyday and not done in a study.  The body is complex, you cannot narrow down a single patient with a single tool of care and do a massive study on it, too many variables.  That's why pharmaceuticals have dumped billions of dollars into their studies and found nothing. (that being the interaction of drugs between each other, and the body on a practical level.  not that they haven't found anything).  trust the fact that chiropractic is the 3rd largest medical profession.  SOMETHING has to be working for that to happen.
4.  thanks chris.  good and bad.  not only good and bad, but know and do not know.  Each doctor can be a good doc or bad (morally)  they could be out for money, or they could be out for the patients best.  Know and do not know, NO doc knows everything.  There are always patients that the doc cannot know how to help.  somewhere, they are out there.  and if the doc is good, he or she will use these patients to learn and help the next patient.  but they are human too.
5.  There are always enemies to health care-  usually the simplest and most effective are banned.  that's the way the US works.  if you can't make money from it, or are losing money, you have enemies.  Usually enemies that HAVE the money.  Your truth will be in your own individual experience.

Given that I am biased, but that's how i see it.  if you want to talk about reliability, you have to compare it to the other forms of current medicine.  drugs perscribed and over the counter are in the top 3 killers in the US.  above smoking, and car accidents.  the US is ranked somewhere around 37 of all countries for health care, and yet we have the most money in it.

I'd say our current modes of medicine are unreliable.
Any information or advice given is not to be interpreted as diagnosis, or statements of causality, conditions should be evaluated by a licensed practitioner of Chiropractic or Medical Doctor IN PERSON.  Therefore treatment recommendation should be considered similarly and bears no consequence to me.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 01:24:30 PM »
also, i watched most of that video...

NO chiro I have ever been to has said or done any of these things (and you can be damn sure I ask a ton of questions...)

It sounds like that chiro that gave up after 7 years spent 7 years doing what he was told and not analyzing anything -- just seemed very unlearned to me.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2008, 06:10:20 PM »
BTW, I personally don't think spinal adjustments can fix your cold.  I think thats a little bold (and kind of stupid)

But anyone who has been for an adjustment before going heavy definitely sees improved performance after an adjustment.  Anyone who has pain due to a tight IT band and goes to a Chiro/ART Therapist/CMT for an IT Band Release will also notice immediate attenuation to pain that lasts.

People here are villainizing something they don't understand.
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Offline wasabe4885

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2008, 07:53:18 PM »
Sorry for making you repeat yourself, but you're right, if these questions were to come up anywhere, this thread seems very proper, eh?

The video seems to take into account that chiropractic is a young profession. And like with anything new, there are going to be worries. That's why I'm so glad you brought up the scientific studies because those are really important. I learned the scientific method back in grade school (how you need lots of identical experiments that give the same result in order to support a hypothesis, and how other people need to be able to reproduce the experiment because otherwise everyone thinks you made stuff up). It makes sense that this approach is even more important when it comes to health professions because treating people is something you don't want to be wrong about, right?

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3.  Chiropractic is clinical-  this means that most of chiropractic's results are everyday and not done in a study.
 
WWHHAAATT?? So what you do in a private room doesn't have to answer for itself? So chiropractic methods haven't been tested on large study groups over long periods of time, like how vaccination studies followed tens of thousands of people over the course of decades? Or how psychologists perform psych experiments on large demographics in order to minimize randomness and show that there is a significant trend? I didn't want to believe this so I searched pubmed for any sort of large, conclusive study that supported various chiropractic methods (search words: sacro-occipital therapy, applied kinesiology, Gonstead) and came up with a lot of "our studies suggest that [blank] therapy works, however, the population size we studied was insignificant". Which is good and all, at least we have a clue as to where we're heading.

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The body is complex, you cannot narrow down a single patient with a single tool of care and do a massive study on it, too many variables.
Yep. Lots of tubes. But we've managed to explain that tiny chemicals traveling from one tube ending to another are what make us tick. That the brain, not the heart, controls the body. We can stop most measles, mumps, hepatitis, rubella, polio, etc. There's always variables. And if there are too many variables, then we can't conclude anything. To do so would be jumping to conclusions, building a house on sand, whatever idiom you want to use.

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That's why pharmaceuticals have dumped billions of dollars into their studies and found nothing. (that being the interaction of drugs between each other, and the body on a practical level.  not that they haven't found anything).
Man, I totally understand your hatred of the pharmaceutical industry. But don't say they found nothing when in the next sentence you say they did find something (they found a lot of things).

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trust the fact that chiropractic is the 3rd largest medical profession.  SOMETHING has to be working for that to happen.
Sorry, but I'm not going to be swayed by a trophy that says "I'm the greatest". If you're the greatest swimmer, win 8 olympic golds, then I'll bow down. But to say "We're the biggest so we must be good" is a logical fallacy. A good example would be viruses. Same goes with the argument, "If insurance companies cover us, we have to be legitimate." It tells me that chiropractic has become a selling point for insurance companies so providing it is a way to sign on more people, but it doesn't tell me of the quality that I'll receive from it. Good doctors, bad doctors, good chiros, bad chiros - insurance covers them all. Lots of variables. Still no conclusion.

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if you want to talk about reliability, you have to compare it to the other forms of current medicine.  drugs perscribed and over the counter are in the top 3 killers in the US.
So because you don't kill people, means your treatment is better, regardless of whether the treatment works the way you say it does. I'm seeing another skip in logic...

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It sounds like that chiro that gave up after 7 years spent 7 years doing what he was told and not analyzing anything -- just seemed very unlearned to me.
Funny, my opinion of that guy was that he did nothing of what he was told and that he questioned everything, even his teachers and his peers. If there ever was a sign for intelligence and independent thought, questioning authority would be it. We'd be screwed without it.

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But anyone who has been for an adjustment before going heavy definitely sees improved performance after an adjustment.  Anyone who has pain due to a tight IT band and goes to a Chiro/ART Therapist/CMT for an IT Band Release will also notice immediate attenuation to pain that lasts. People here are villainizing something they don't understand.
If you find relief from your musculoskeletal pain, fantastic. But is it the BEST way? Can we cut away some fat? Is it working for all the reasons you believe they are working? What I'm worried about is the spread of an illogical way of thinking. Apparently there are at least 50 different methods of diagnosing a chiropractic patient (that already raises a red flag). There are a lot of descriptions on the methods that sound very sketchy from a physiological standpoint (meridian lines...ehhh....), let alone peer-reviewed studies that show that they work better than placebos. You may start to see why it's difficult to understand it all.


Man, that took too long. Just so many dots that aren't connecting.

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 08:59:43 PM »
I think much of what was said was misinterpreted.  I'm glad you're asking questions.

The basis of much of what I said was that the scientific method is great, but it is also LIMITED.  It is important to use, but my point is that in several areas it is impossible to do a true scientific study because we cannot isolate all the variables of the body.  we can try, but doing that would be unrealistic.  I hate to break it to you buddy, but most of what is being done by doctors is clinical.  as in, not done by studies.  As in, trying something based on best knowledge.  If we only used what was proved in scientific study, we'd get nowhere.  for instance, where is the study that proves that people scream in pain?  well, some people scream, some groan, but at what level of pain?  how do you measure that?... subjectively?  therefore, you couldn't argue that pain doesn't exist could you?  we all know it does.  but different people have different threshholds, different understandings of pain.  different histories, different reactions.  A trigger (emotional) can cause physical pain.  how do we do a double blind study with 100k subjects?- and I'm not talking about the simple idea of nociception...

the answer is simple, there aren't that many people with the SAME response and trigger.  therefore we CAN'T do a study.  it has to be trial and error.  if we always use the scientific method, even in other things, humans wouldn't be able to progress.  does every baby know crawling is good for them?  does every child discover different colors?  what if they are color blind?  what about fire.  if a child never discovers that fire could be harmful, should he touch the stove 500 times, with 10,000 people to use the scientific method?

that would be dumb wouldn't it?

so point 3.  you must not know what chiropractic is then.  for example.  touch the transverse process of t3 on the right.... take your time.  ok, how do you know its t3?  and when you found it, should you take an x-ray, just to be sure its t3?  ok, lets say you do.  now adjust t3 with a high velocity thrust.  at 20 pounds of pressure.  with a I-S M-L thrust.  and do it like 10k other doctors.

this doesn't even begin to cover the start of techniques and methods :), what I stated was simple "do this", not even how to FIND where to adjust.  just TRY to do a study.  some studies we can and have done.  but it takes time cause the body is complex.  and you think that psychologists are doing tons of studies for everything they do?  i hate to say it but HA!  you see the studies they do, but NOT the ones they DON'T do.  tell me, could you think of a study on how to treat a patient psychologically for their specific parental abuse, an equation of what to do on every patient that will always work?  That would be silly, so to ask a chiropractor to do so is just as insane.

anyway, that point is beaten to death.
to sum up just incase it got lost.  scientific method is one thing.  REAL LIFE is another.  scientific method is a tool and NOT the absolute.  that is something that we in all types of education get mixed up about.

btw, chiropractors ARE the top advocate to brain and spine controlling everything.

my statement of "they haven't found anything" with the disclaimer was to make not of what they Don't know.  tell me some studies on drug to drug interactions when the average american over 65 is popping more than 5 pills a day of different perscriptions.  billions of dollars, and not even scratching the surface of research.

the point i made on the size of chiropractic was simply that it saves money.  insurance companies wouldn't support something that doesn't save THEM money.  and since chiropractic is growing, despite the AMA trying to crush them in the 60s, and the antagonistic mindset of nearly every MD up until recently, for something to grow despite hostile environments must mean that it is effective.  positively or negatively, granted.

no skip in logic.  i don't think anyone will argue that my treatment is NOT better because i am not killing people.  :).



your next point.  7 years bit.  there are skeptics, and there are thinkers, and there are plain depressed pessimists.  all different.  there are horror stories to everything, and positive and negative to everything.  chris' point was subjective.  he felt that THAT particular chiropractor must have not applied himself, and become bogged down by other stuff.


Is chiropractic the best way?  for some people.  not all.  same with medicine.  same with PTs.  same with naturpaths and osteopaths, and even crystal waving.  that's a pointless question.  not because it isn't good, but because its impossible to answer.  because it is based on your personal value system.  THAT is subjective.  based on the individual.  (and hey!  lets do a scientific method study on that!  what is "best?"  and lets find a DEFINATE conclusion.  never will happen.)

oh and last thing, don't bang on meridians :).  you'd be discounting thousands of years of chinese study because you don't understand it and claim it doesn't exist.

I understand where you are coming from because, I, was there too.  I've studied chinese medicine, western medicine, chiropractic, etc etc with the same mentality.  my knowledge is limited still, but what i DO know is that the people in health that have helped people  as DOCTORS are usually the ones that are willing to try anything to help the patient.  the SCIENTISTS are the ones that will only do what is PROVEN (again, subjectively to their opinions) to themselves.

both have roles.  but don't bang on doctors (you can't isolate chiropractic in this) for trying to help people.

:)  thanks for the questions, props to you.





« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 09:54:51 PM by Ken PKChiro »
Any information or advice given is not to be interpreted as diagnosis, or statements of causality, conditions should be evaluated by a licensed practitioner of Chiropractic or Medical Doctor IN PERSON.  Therefore treatment recommendation should be considered similarly and bears no consequence to me.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 10:56:53 PM »
Quote
But anyone who has been for an adjustment before going heavy definitely sees improved performance after an adjustment.  Anyone who has pain due to a tight IT band and goes to a Chiro/ART Therapist/CMT for an IT Band Release will also notice immediate attenuation to pain that lasts. People here are villainizing something they don't understand.
If you find relief from your musculoskeletal pain, fantastic. But is it the BEST way? Can we cut away some fat? Is it working for all the reasons you believe they are working? What I'm worried about is the spread of an illogical way of thinking. Apparently there are at least 50 different methods of diagnosing a chiropractic patient (that already raises a red flag). There are a lot of descriptions on the methods that sound very sketchy from a physiological standpoint (meridian lines...ehhh....), let alone peer-reviewed studies that show that they work better than placebos. You may start to see why it's difficult to understand it all.

Ken pretty much addressed all of the other points and I agree with his assertions there, for the most part.  No need for me to go back into that.  I did want to address this though since it was a direct response to my statements.

As athletes most of the reasons why we would see a chiro would be musculoskeletal pain.  The best way is highly subjective and can only be judged on a case by case basis.  You would actually be surprised at how similar a treatment plan from a *good* chiro and a *good* physical therapist would be.  The difference, of course, would be this:
1) Chiros will focus on physical adjustments and assessments, then give you "homework" on exercises you should do and avoid while in the recovery progress
2) PTs will focus on working out with you in the PT clinic and may give you "homework" - typically they will assess you physically but not perform something that resembles a chiropractic adjustment.

Both pay a lot of attention to movement patterns and biomechanics, ideally.  Both structure workout plans that help you reach your end goals.  Chiros typically focus on sources of the problem whereas PTs focus on the problem site itself -- both have their benefits and advantages -- different cases benefit from different assessments and modalities.

There are 50 ways of diagnosing a chiropractic patient -- there are also 50 ways of diagnosing an orthopedic patient or a Physical Therapy patient.  As you narrow down variables (source of pain, type of pain, etc) the amount of ways you can diagnose will shrink down to ONE way.  This bilateral skin temperature stuff, for example, is total bullshit imho...similar to a customer I had that wanted to do experiments on how plants "feel".  Assessing pains and ROMs is a great way to start the diagnosis process and usually results in successful identification of proper treatment.

The point is, if it works what is the problem?  It may not be optimal, but in terms of recovery sciences, there is still a lot of progress that needs to be made so optimal is somewhat of a relative term at this stage in the game.

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Offline wasabe4885

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2008, 01:55:16 AM »
Thanks for replying so thoroughly, guys.

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for instance, where is the study that proves that people scream in pain?  well, some people scream, some groan, but at what level of pain?  how do you measure that?... subjectively?  therefore, you couldn't argue that pain doesn't exist could you?
Screaming due to pain is an observable event that can be demonstrated over and over again (at the dismay of the patient =P). I can rationalize that screaming is a bad thing because it happens when bad things happen. Furthermore, if an alien were to visit us and see us scream every time he shoots at us, he can deduce that screaming is something we do when a particular stimulus is applied. He may even go so far as to shoot different things, causing variable amounts of pain, and elicit various amounts of screams. The amygdala is a wonderful thing when it comes to making sense of things. Clinical evaluations are based upon signs and symptoms that we deduce to be stereotypical to an illness, and patterns are based on prior factual observations seen in similar cases. If it's something that happened a lot before, we can make a judgment call and say it will happen again. That's the application of science. To take one patient and treat him/her as an individual experiment is not only putting that patient at risk, it's detrimental to unwinding the mysteries of the human body. Science comes to a stand still, and what we're left with are independent theories that we can't connect. It makes me wonder if that is how those 50+ methods of chiropractic came to exist.

From an insurance company's perspective, I would love having people go to chiropractors because then they don't have to go to a pricey MD. But from a consumer standpoint, I would want to go to whomever will give me the right treatment. As Mr. Salvato mentioned earlier, there are chiropractors that claim an adjustment will cure a cold. Or a stomach ache. Or being able to budge your arm while you hold a packet of Splenda to your chest means that Splenda must be bad for you. I'm not arguing that Splenda is good for you (it isn't), but I am saying that the methods used to determine the conclusion is essentially pseudoscience. Also, by not looking beyond what happens within your clinic, how do you know what you're doing is the true answer and not due to chance findings. You're the tester, evaluator, and treater. And like you said, you're human (I hope) - susceptible to your unconscious will, and without an external indicator to support your findings, your tests and diagnoses will only exist within your head. If you want to bring up research findings by the chiropractic community, then look a little wider and realize that even those findings aren't significant enough to justify certain methods. Back to insurance. Will Average Joe know the difference between Dr. Chiro's test and Dr. MD's test? No. He only knows that if he doesn't get better, then at least that treatment avenue was cheap and covered by insurance. If he gets better, great! It was a cheap! Joe will think, "If Dr. Chiro fixed my low back, then he must know what he's talking about with my cold. I'm gonna give it a try!" And again we run into the danger of not doing proper science, whether it's in the lab or in your clinic. This is why most MDs disapprove of most chiropractics. Not because of money or competition. It's the same reason we're having this debate. It's science versus pseudoscience. My only hope is that my rationalizations will enlighten others to be informed consumers as they make their choice.

I am not doubting chiropractors' depth of knowledge when it comes to anatomical structures. It's what you do with the knowledge that makes me a skeptic. I'm pretty cool with you guys on musculoskeletal injuries, etc. Especially ones that promote strengthening exercises. I think the chiros that stick to that kind of stuff are called, "straight", while the ones that dabble in curing cancer and such are "mixers", right?

I'm not the one that has to do the research on your methods. The burden of proof is on those that promote the conclusions. You're the one that has to pass the rigors of science. It's a merit system. Everything from surgical procedures to the salt on your table have to prove that they're safe. If they're not, they get pulled like mad cow beef. I'm seeing similarities between chiropractic methods and nutritional supplements. Those that promote them say they did the studies, but the government doesn't do anything to regulate them. None of the supplements on the American market have to own up to it's own hype. Doesn't have to prove it's effective. So long as it doesn't kill people, they're allowed to sell it. Due to lack of research for most supplements, we can't say for sure if they do anything other than make our piss more expensive. Same goes for chiropractic. Consumers are taking your word on it. We don't know what we're getting because we only have hearsay and word of mouth from which to go. And I think that's what's wrong with the picture. People put out money believing they're being taken care of. That belief, whether it's out of hope or desperation, that draws people to try what their neighbors recommend without having all the facts.

Pharmaceutical industry. You and I both know they're in it for the money. There's no money in finding drug interactions because that involves saying, "Don't buy this drug," at one point or another, and the last thing they want is to give people a reason to not buy drugs. They'd rather spend that money on finding more drugs that people will have to take for years. Research on finding a cure for cancer or AIDS is slower than it should be because they make a killing off of the numerous chemotherapy treatments and medications. It's the same mentality anywhere money is involved. Nutritional supplements make money off of daily/weekly/monthly supplementation because people are sold on the fact that it will make them healthier, despite whether or not its true. Personal trainers are notorious for getting people to come back for more sessions, despite whether or not they're losing weight. And I'm saddened to say that I've seen this mentality to some degree in several health professions, too, but I've seen that it's notoriously widespread in chiropractic. I have my assumptions as to why chiros are so stricken by this. It could start with the type of people admitted to chiro school since it requires decent undergrad grades and tuition money (pre-meds give up an arm and a leg doing whatever lab work, hospital volunteer work, research internships, MCAT studying, etc). It could be the unscientific environment of chiro school itself that fosters slightly irrational logic. It could be how new chiros are put out onto the job market to fend for themselves in a business world (MDs go through hospital residencies and use this time to build networks before opening their own clinics). ::shrugs::

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your next point.  7 years bit.  there are skeptics, and there are thinkers, and there are plain depressed pessimists.  all different.  there are horror stories to everything, and positive and negative to everything.  chris' point was subjective.  he felt that THAT particular chiropractor must have not applied himself, and become bogged down by other stuff.
Subjectivity can be a good thing or a bad thing. In this case, it becomes an opinion. I haven't met the man myself, but this is what I found off the PBS website (http://www.pbs.org/saf/1210/hotline/hbedanes.htm):
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"John Badanes received a B.A. in fine art and World Music from Wesleyan University in 1968. He trained as a chiropractor at Life Chiropractic College West (LCCW) in San Lorenzo, CA, and graduated summa cum laude in 1984. Badanes was class valedictorian and recipient of the college's Clinical Excellence Citation. He then became a Licensed Acupuncturist and was in private practice as both a chiropractor and acupuncturist from 1985 to 1992. During this period, Badanes also served as faculty at LCCW's outpatient clinic.

On a 1988 trip to Indonesia to perform the Balinese music he'd studied and taught since 1971, Badanes visited with friends and families whom he hadn't seen since pursuing his career in chiropractic and Traditional Chinese Medicine. The disparity between their health care needs and what he could provide as a so-called "doctor" defined for him the fundamental difference in clinical basis between Alternative Medicine and medical practice that's informed by bioscience.

Badanes returned to the U.S. and obtained a Pharm.D (Doctor of Pharmacy) degree from the University of California, San Francisco, in 1997. This program strengthened his commitment to science-based intervention and sharpened his criticism of the arbitrary diagnostic and therapeutic methods that proliferate within the chiropractic profession and characterize Alternative Medicine. He now works as a community pharmacist in western Massachusetts."
Hm...doesn't sound like the biography of a person who doesn't apply himself. Funny what a little research does, eh?

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Is chiropractic the best way?  for some people.  not all.  same with medicine.  same with PTs.  same with naturpaths and osteopaths, and even crystal waving.  that's a pointless question.  not because it isn't good, but because its impossible to answer.  because it is based on your personal value system.  THAT is subjective.  based on the individual.  (and hey!  lets do a scientific method study on that!  what is "best?"  and lets find a DEFINATE conclusion.  never will happen.)
WRONG. And that is a VERY dangerous approach to someone's health. A person's value system does not treat their illness. People have a right to be informed about their options. People have a right to choose from the options. But to tell them that they could choose between a liver transplant and crystal waving is irresponsible and ludicrous. Health professions have scopes of practice to make sure people get the right treatment from the right person. Anyone who claims an unproven treatment to be a treatment is standing on very shaky moral and legal grounds.

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oh and last thing, don't bang on meridians
Meridians: Yea, that's why I'm "ehhhhh" about it. There have been studies that show treated people get significantly greater physiological changes compared to control groups. Same goes for a lot of Chinese medicine. They're another group I don't bash on too much because they've had a millenia to trial-and-error on peasants when our alternative medicine was their only medicine. That's a lot of time to work out the kinks They're approach is also very subtle.  Lot of interesting stuff from those guys.

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Chiros typically focus on sources of the problem whereas PTs focus on the problem site itself
Then you didn't have a very good PT. Another one of those, they have some good and some bad, and it all still needs to be spit polished. The major difference is that a chiropractor's source may be in the neck while the problem is in the liver. From an physiological and treatment point of view, that brings up a lot of question marks. And if the sources aren't the same, then the treatment plan won't be the same, and the outcomes won't be the same. As for chiros and PTs being similar, you'd first have to nail down what chiros do. Are they going to stick with musculoskeletal? Or are they also cold-busting cancer treaters, too?

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The point is, if it works what is the problem?  It may not be optimal, but in terms of recovery sciences, there is still a lot of progress that needs to be made so optimal is somewhat of a relative term at this stage in the game.
Another troubling way to rationalize. Let's keep dumping the oceans. There's plenty of space, right? Or an even subtler example would be, "Sun goes around the earth. Who cares?" The problem is that it impedes progress. Humans advance because of this need to explain. If we knew exactly how it worked, maybe we could make it even better. That's how medicine evolved. That's how we evolved. Going back to eating roots is just a funny irony, but the success is that we now know why we eat it. We understand it better. We can mold it to our benefit.

This is fun and all, but I need sleep. I look forward to responses from more people.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 02:17:51 AM by wasabe4885 »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 08:48:18 AM »
I think you misinterpret my posts...I do not believe that chiros can cure cancer, colds, or any other physiological ailment aside from what they specialize in -- musculoskeletal problems and their relationship to nervous problems.  If there is something out of alignment then it does cause temporary errors in proprioception -- that doesn't need a study, thats a basic element of a control system.  If the sensor is misplaced, it will sense incorrectly.  The body can adapt, which kind of makes the problem worse because the sensor then changes itself to accomodate the problem given a long enough time with the mis-alignment.  This is good, because our body is self contained and self-repairing but it is also bad because, over time, we find ourselves misaligned and maladjusted which leads to less-than-optimal biomechanics and proprioceptive ability.

Again, a study here would be terrific but very difficult to do.  If you have ever studied/understood feedback loops and control systems (the most basic element of our body's regulatory devices) it is clear that any sudden changes to the anatomy would cause a decrease in performance.

With that said:
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"John Badanes received a B.A. in fine art and World Music from Wesleyan University in 1968. He trained as a chiropractor at Life Chiropractic College West (LCCW) in San Lorenzo, CA, and graduated summa cum laude in 1984. Badanes was class valedictorian and recipient of the college's Clinical Excellence Citation. He then became a Licensed Acupuncturist and was in private practice as both a chiropractor and acupuncturist from 1985 to 1992. During this period, Badanes also served as faculty at LCCW's outpatient clinic.

On a 1988 trip to Indonesia to perform the Balinese music he'd studied and taught since 1971, Badanes visited with friends and families whom he hadn't seen since pursuing his career in chiropractic and Traditional Chinese Medicine. The disparity between their health care needs and what he could provide as a so-called "doctor" defined for him the fundamental difference in clinical basis between Alternative Medicine and medical practice that's informed by bioscience.

Badanes returned to the U.S. and obtained a Pharm.D (Doctor of Pharmacy) degree from the University of California, San Francisco, in 1997. This program strengthened his commitment to science-based intervention and sharpened his criticism of the arbitrary diagnostic and therapeutic methods that proliferate within the chiropractic profession and characterize Alternative Medicine. He now works as a community pharmacist in western Massachusetts."
Hm...doesn't sound like the biography of a person who doesn't apply himself. Funny what a little research does, eh?

I think you kind of proved my point.  It took him four years of practicing chiropractic medicine before he started thinking about it critically.  It took him 4 years to say "Hey, does this shit REALLY cure colds?  What is the basis for that? OH wait there is none, crap!"  As a result he went to Pharma -- pharma...really?  Seems like there is more to this that him realizing that curing colds with spinal sdjustments was crap.  Sounds like he had a total change of heart -- he went from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The facts are nice but are limited for the reasons I did not search for it in the first place -- PBS will just tell you what you want to heart to give him credibility.  Summa Cum Laude means nothing, imho.  Means you are very book smart -- knowledgeable but not necessarily intelligent.

If you think that my views are skewed because im not a "school person" or i don't like research or something you should know that I spent the past 2 years involved in Biomedical research either as an assistant scientist or biomedical research consultant.  I graduated Summa Cum Laude, too.  With this experience, IMHO, research is very limited - which is why I am not making my long-term career goals based around research.  I'm glad I started considering the limitations of MY trade immediately -- not after I was in the field for 4 years.


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Chiros typically focus on sources of the problem whereas PTs focus on the problem site itself
Then you didn't have a very good PT. Another one of those, they have some good and some bad, and it all still needs to be spit polished. The major difference is that a chiropractor's source may be in the neck while the problem is in the liver. From an physiological and treatment point of view, that brings up a lot of question marks. And if the sources aren't the same, then the treatment plan won't be the same, and the outcomes won't be the same. As for chiros and PTs being similar, you'd first have to nail down what chiros do. Are they going to stick with musculoskeletal? Or are they also cold-busting cancer treaters, too?

???  Really.  This is how my ex-roommate pursuing her Ph. D in PT was taught to treat and diagnose problems.  This is how every PT I have been to (and I have been to over 7 in various parts of the country for my numerous shoulder surgeries) have treated my problems.  Does it work?  Yes, of course.  They do sometimes address associated factors but that is not their focus.  I only recently started going to Chiros (mostly because I heard good things and I can use them as a primary care giver and portal on my insurance which is a shitload cheaper than going to a PT directly) and I have had good results from both PT and Chiro.

I already nailed down what I believe Chiros to do....musculoskeletal adjustments addressing possible neural interference (such as poorly programmed feedback loops due to misalignments).  I don't know what Ken believes that he can do, but I don't think Chiro can cure a head cold, cancer, AIDS, Herpes, or clogged sinuses....but they do a hell of a job fixing my stiff neck, patellar tendinitis, hip bursitis, tight IT band or tightness in my shoulder -- so can a PT, though.

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The point is, if it works what is the problem?  It may not be optimal, but in terms of recovery sciences, there is still a lot of progress that needs to be made so optimal is somewhat of a relative term at this stage in the game.
Another troubling way to rationalize. Let's keep dumping the oceans. There's plenty of space, right? Or an even subtler example would be, "Sun goes around the earth. Who cares?" The problem is that it impedes progress. Humans advance because of this need to explain. If we knew exactly how it worked, maybe we could make it even better. That's how medicine evolved. That's how we evolved. Going back to eating roots is just a funny irony, but the success is that we now know why we eat it. We understand it better. We can mold it to our benefit.

I think you misunderstood.  I am not saying we should abandon investigating it.  I am saying we should stop asking if it DOES work because it does work for alleviating musculoskeletal pain and ailments and it does improve performance.  Every major sports team has chiros and ART therapists, as do most olympians.  The fact is it DOES work for that domain.  As far as cold-treating, yeh I will give you that, I never thought that was possible.  But the fact is that it helps performance and eliminates pain...we don't know the bitter details as to why it works just yet, but hopefully we do know this in the future.

Just so you know, the scientific community has no idea how anesthesia works.  It just does.  Ask an anesthesiologist if you don't believe me.  We have no idea how anesthesia works -- does that mean we should stop using it?  No.  It works, end of story.  There are tons of studies going on to find out WHY is works and I think we need to treat chiropractic just the same.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:29:49 AM by Chris Salvato »
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Offline wasabe4885

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 12:21:38 PM »
I'm absolutely fine with chiros treating musculoskeletal problems. Attributing most problems to pinched nerves makes enough sense. A PT noting numbness and tingling on a certain portion of the arm would be able to locate which nerve is being impinged because pinching that nerve blocks sensory sensation to that portion of the body. The issue is that many of the tests chiropractors use to determine that there is a misalignment in the first place (e.g. measuring leg lengths, nerve-o-scope, feeling for pulsations of cerebrospinal fluid, etc) are suspect, and therefore, makes one question whether there was a misalignment in the first place. And to have a profession that bases their findings on suspect ground makes me even more suspicious as to their knowledge/treatment.

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I already nailed down what I believe Chiros to do....musculoskeletal adjustments addressing possible neural interference
And that's just it. It's only what you can nail down. Is that really a sound approach to a health care profession? That each person needs to come to his or her own conclusions about what their clinician really does? Compare that to any other regulated health profession. You know exactly what to expect with every well-established healthcare professional (be it doctor, dentist, optometrist, etc), and you can trust that if there is any foul play on their part, they will be properly punished for it. There's no statement or regulatory oversight that limits chiros to only musculoskeletal injuries, and the chiros that do limit themselves out of moral/ethical reasons and are shunned by the larger chiropractic community. The majority of chiros will overstep boundaries that they obviously shouldn't, which again makes me suspicious as to the quality of people within this profession. Finding proper treatment would be much easier if they openly advertised what they do/don't treat and in what way. What if someone who isn't as educated as you hears the grandeur of chiropractic and goes to one? Would they have the same scrutiny as us? Would they be able to determine the difference between what does and doesn't make scientific sense? I'm not saying we should avoid chiros altogether. I'm saying that people need to educate themselves when it comes to chiros in order to avoid potentially being misinformed by the many "cold-curers" out there.

As for continued research, the papers that suggest malpractice, ineffectiveness, and safety bring up a lot of questions on if certain chiro methods should even be done in the first place. Pubmed took forever, but a little googling came up with this list: http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/journals.html . Poking through it makes one wonder what the response would be if there was ever that much doubt in any other health care profession. The evidence suggests that there's more to it than "MDs trying to crush DCs back in the 60s out of fear".
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 12:30:35 PM by wasabe4885 »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 06:09:14 PM »
I think I am with you for the most part, there.  I understand your complaint and it makes sense.

Ken, do most practicing chiros, including yourself, believe that you can cure diseases not related to musculoskeletal problems like a cold or congested sinuses?  If so, what is the basis?  If not, are the only ones who believe this the "bad chiros"

I have been to two chiros -- and the first one I went to I would consider one of the wackos.  My current chiro/ART Therapist doesn't think he can cure my colds but he definitely knows he can help with things like my patellar tendinitis.
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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 06:21:50 PM »
So, I don't have time to do a thorough reply.  but I'll do my best.  I'm off to hong kong for about a month in 2 daysish.

Few points:

1.  Chiros are doctors.  Portal of entry.  They should not be compared to a PT.  Chiros are trained 1st to rule out serious pathology.  PTs follow orders.  Doctors are trained to diagnose, PTs technically are not.  they are told to do.  Chiros are taught to watch for these red flags and are given the power of referral.  I can't stress this enough.

2.  Chiros are not simply musculoskeletal.  They are specialists in it, but more so they are functional neurologists.  Like both you know, the body is run by nerves.  The "pinched nerve" model is a chiros way of explaining it to a layman,  its not nearly that simple.  Pinched nerve technically is a myth.  BUT, the neurologic function of the body is facilitated by the chiropractor.

why is this important?

because we CAN "cure" colds. etc etc.

don't bash me yet.  1st ask, what is a cold?  yep, infection of some microorganism to the system right?  we are ALWAYS under attack.  what does chronic stress do to the system?  decreases immunity.  Therefore you remove the chronic stress to the nerves, to the body.  facilitate the communication between the nervous system to the ORGANS (might I remind you), and you increase immunity.  Therefore in a sense you may have "cured" a cold.   Yes this model can be used for anything that causes stress, but this is the root of those claims.  and until you understand that a cold, that cancer, etc etc, is not just something you have or do not have, you can't understand the system.  The body fights "colds" and "cancer" daily.  chiropractors help the body to heal itself.  So, in all reality, chiropractors do not cure anything, the body does.  But chiropractors help a ton.

3.  calling chiropractic a pseudoscience.... wow.  here we go.  chiropractors have MORE hours of most every subject than a MD.

here: http://www.positivemotionchiropractic.com/downloads/How-Well-Educated-Is-Your-Chiropractor.pdf

the fact is we are real life.  we USE scientific information, methods, to interpret our results.  YOU try to do better.  the reason there are 50 plus techniques is because every technique thought they had a better way of exactly what you are trying to do.  re-invent the wheel you might say.  we've ALL gone down your train of thought, but in practical application it is impossible to do what you are saying.

concerning straight and mix, you are absolutely wrong.  Straights are the guys who believe that the spinal manipulation cures everything.  mixers are the ones who believe anything might be needed to fix the body (broadly speaking).

concerning supplements.  know your terms.  most supplements are food.  that's all.  if you want to argue that food is unstudied, go for it.  ;).  drugs are studied because they make the drug, and put everything they want into it.  which means that usually its unnatural, and stressful to your body.  you can't do a study on food because you don't know EVERYTHING in the food.  you can simplify it, but you can't know everything.  Intrinsic factor is a prime example.  

Another example of structure vs function.  We chiros have promoted that the appendix is NOT just a residual something or other.  because its there.  why else would it be there?  so SCIENCE states that it is useless....

even now most people believe that to be so.  but then this study comes out.... that says that the appendix stores good bacteria to the gut, and may reproliferate the gut after the good bacteria gets wiped out for some reason.  huh.

that's called reverse science.  and that's REAL life.  you look at something, and you go, "i wonder why?"  NOT  "It doesn't exist until it is proven".  difference.

oh, and considering the testing subject morality.  chemotherapy.  look it up.  look at what results THEY get.  or look at the high cholesterol diets.  look at the results.  moral schmoral.  you have to compare.  what's better for the patient?  my opinion?  good intent 1st.  2nd in our oath- DO NO HARM.

whoops.

yeah, take an extreme example and say crystal waver to cure cancer.  that's dumb.  but IF the doc and the patient believes in it, who knows?  they might have something.  you can't deny it if it works.    I know, its unscientific, but there has to be a line drawn where you realize that science is not God and that even placebo is good if it helps the patient.  it is not the BEST way.  and it should not stop there.  but who are you to say that the crystal waving didn't actually work?  how are you going to study that?  I say the crystal waver did a better job if the patient is cured, and happier, than the chemotherapist who kills the body (kinda like the leeches in the old day) and claims that its scientific.

I guess my point is that I'm a doctor.  So I see the world as patient first.  you are probably a student, or someone maybe just better fit for research.  those are two very different things.  neither is bad, but both are narrow minded.  I'll be the first to raise my hand on that one.

I guess my ultimate point is that the idea that scientific studies come before use is a flawed idea.  the use of the scientific method was to test and then improve already used practices (when it comes to health care).  In this is its core problem.  See, the scientific method is awesome.  but it is limited in that it takes specifically: time, and resources.  and, it needs something to test.  variables persay to play with.

for instance, some studies of preventative medicine take tens of years if not several generations.  and even then some things may not be conclusive.  chiropractic just hit the 100 plus years mark.  it would be arrogant to think that you would be the first to declare that chiropractic needs more evidence.  i know several people that devote their lives to studying it.  but the scientific method needs to be able to have something to test, and the best that all of us doctors can do is find things to test.  

it goes like this.  "hey, i helped so and so patient with this!  try it and tell me what you find!"  this from MDs, PTs, osteopaths, etc etc.  and when it gains enough momentum as our resources are limited (gotta use your tme wisely), then the scientific method comes in and tests that theory.  that's what health care is all about, and with time, we get better and better.  

and then there are those things that are impossible to test.  because it is impossible to test something in a natural environment WHILE isolating the variable.  sucks huh?  so the chinese in a way got it right.  thousands and thousands of years of trial and error.  because when it comes to practicality, every day care, there is no better way.  or else we'd be paralyzed by inaction.  Your criticism is against health care, from a researchers point of view.  try to say the same thing when a patient walks in and claims inability to move at at due to pain, and all they care about is being out of pain.  my 2 cents.  chiropractic just happens to be much more broad (as in the WHOLE body) than just the eyes, or the ears, or the internal organs.  it is so much more complicated than any of those.

most of your last e-mail presents issues that could be applied to any profession.  I would first challenge all health care first as a whole.



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Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 06:22:22 PM »
besides that, i don't think ill be online for another month.  best wishes guys!  you both are awesome.
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Offline wasabe4885

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2008, 01:35:18 AM »
I'm noticing that this debate follows this pattern: I put up an argument. PKChiro says, "No you're wrong, this is the right way." I suggest why PKChiro's wrong and suggest the right way. PKChiro says, "No you're wrong, this is the right way." And again, I suggest why PKChiro's wrong and suggest the right way. Your thought process is driving me nuts. Any other health care professional would be able to go through the steps, rather than spouting straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks. You always revert to your pillars of belief, but never explain why those beliefs should exist other than, "They work. Period." For once, try to arguing in favor of chiropractic without bashing another profession. Or referencing a statistic, like "3rd largest medical profession" or "most hours of most every subject". I want quality, not quantity. Who's making sure those hours are spent wisely? That the instructors are reliable? That the institution isn't corrupt? That the theories aren't falsities? There are no government-funded chiropractic schools. Chiropractors regulate themselves. It's like telling a child to spank himself - why would he?

I'm simply asking the questions any other professional would ask of their own work. If a painting of the Virgin Mary cries blood, the painter claims, "It's a miracle!", and the devout will say, "It's a miracle!", but those who have a questioning eye would hold judgment until it is proven a miracle or a hoax. So until the chiropractic community can prove their methods work via the mechanisms they say, it requires some faith to follow those methods. Which is why I'm not surprised that the founder of chiropractic, DD Palmer, literally called his method a religion - http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/chiro-religion.html . This fervor is very evident in the way you support chiropractic. A little humbleness is due because right now you're putting yourself on the edge of a bridge without knowing if construction is done. An MD would tell you the chances of an operation working so you'd know what you're dealing with and if you want to take that risk. Chiros ALWAYS promote their easy, safe, effective treatments. Speaking in absolutes puts up a huge red flag. Just to reiterate: having explanations for something doesn't mean your explanations are right. Leeches were believed to suck the demons out of people. Did it work? Who knows? because those healers would tout the miracles and forget the failures. I'm not talking about what you do in your clinic because it's too small of a sample size to say anything absolute about the method. I'm talking about what all chiropractors do in all clinics. That is where useful information comes out.

I write a lot because PKChiro's responses require a lot of work. The above is my main point. From here on out, I'll be concise in cleaning up his arguments (as a warning, less time means being less dainty - sorry):

1) Portal of entry: DCs vs PT. Doctors of physical therapy are trained in differential diagnosis. They are currently lobbying (just as DCs did) in order to gain the same recognition as portal of entry. Most prescriptions for PT are, "Diagnose and treat" because MDs know that the PT can figure it out better than them. And because of bureaucratic insurance policies, an MD that prescribes PT for carpal tunnel may not realize it's something else. As such, the PT will treat something else but is required to call it "carpal tunnel" otherwise insurance won't cover it. Considering PTs have existed for less than half the time DCs have, I think they're doing pretty well as far as being recognized professionals who know what they're talking about.

2) Curing colds: I don't buy your reasoning because your A + B does not equal C. Sorry, I'm cutting my responses short. In summary, it's the same mystical rubbish.

3) Pseudoscience: I've beaten this to death. The ultimate question in science = PROVE IT.

4) Supplements: Again, A + B does not equal C. Calling supplements food is the same argument the billion dollar nutritional supplement industry uses on the FDA to keep them from regulating their pill advertisements. You take a specific chemical in the food, you concentrate it, and you apply it. That's how opium is made. That's how cocaine is made.

5) The appendix: I don't know what your physiology professor told you, but every physiologist I ever talked to did mention the possibility of the appendix being a bacterial storage area for the large intestine (evolutionary remnant of the lower vertebrate's cecum). This coming from physiologists at a public school recognized internationally for it's life science and biomedicine program (we're #11 in the world - http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/subject_rankings/life_sciences_biomedicine/ ). I know State school physiologists that mention this, too. Special note: I say physiologists, not just physiology professors, because these are the people actively doing the science and not regurgitating what was told to them. Maybe things got lost along the way on your end - another point at which I suspect the quality of your education.

6) Your personal attacks: Ooohhh, you're a DOCTOR. I'm NOT. Therefore you must be SPECIAL. One of the most useful things I've learned is to not be blinded by the badge. Just because someone has a title, or a fancy suit, or a special position, or a lab coat does not put them in the position to tell you what's right and what's wrong. People are very susceptible to persuasion/exploitation from "superiors", as the infamous Milgram experiment proved (wiki it, it's awesome).

7) DO NO HARM: That's par for the course. You are being paid to do good. The question is if that's what your patients are getting.

8) More hours of study: Another way to address this. People who finish their medical degrees are only beginning. They're still at the bottom of the barrel until they at least finish their hospital residency in 3 years. Even then, they're still general practitioners. Add another 4 years for specializations, such as orthopedic or physiatry. Then they can do another 4 years for their fellowship. Now that is a hellish education. Just when they think they're at the top, there's a whole other mountain to climb. Chiropractic education is a relative breeze. I did consider chiropractic school, even before I really thought about this whole mess. One of the reasons I didn't go into chiropractic was because they sent me material in the mail without me ever requesting it. Kind like the ones I got from the military. Rule of thumb for the college-bound kids out there: the best schools are highly selective for many reasons, but the main one is because they can afford to turn away hundreds of people and still fill a 30 or 40 seats.

9) Your patient complaining about pain: I'm fine with the fact that you made him better. What I'm not okay with is the reasons you gave the patient in order to make him believe in you. The only reason misinformation isn't a lie is because you believe in it, too.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 01:51:17 AM by wasabe4885 »

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2008, 01:17:38 PM »
dude, calm down.  You're missing the point entirely.

I don't have time to banter, but basically I'm saying that all doctors do what chiros are doing.  I'm not saying that i don't want what you are going for, I'm simply saying that such things require time.  And that until we have the data, we can't sit around and twiddle our thumbs.  the best we can do is theorize, try, and hope for the best.  just cause other professions are at different stages of the game doesn't mean you can bash ours.  as ours is much more complicated and broad.  that's the only point.  An md tells you the chances, because your talking heroic medicine, not daily wellness health care.  your arguments could just as well be applied to any alternative care because its preventative and not heroic.

And you wanted data, so i show you hours.  but then you throw back "oh, how do you know the QUALITY of the education."... gee, how do you know the quality of MD education is good?  "its goverment regulated"... THAT works. ::)  so your saying that the professors of every college is monitored by the government, every class he gives is watched to make sure he presents good information.  does anyone else see how weak that argument is???  maybe we should make a measurement on each professor, and give him rankings, send it to the government to review, and do that for each class period.  just to be sure he has good quality.  I know that most people would agree with me that the quality of "higher education" is far lacking.  and that is government regulated.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, and this is the right way.  I stated I (repeat I, as in ME) was narrow minded.  but realize this, SO ARE YOU.  you have a paradigm that you can't break out of, and by accusing others that they are narrow minded cause they don't agree with your mindset is... well, hypocritical.

I'm sorry dude, I do know more than you about health.  I'm not totting that as a absolute, I've been wrong before, but I can see that you simply don't understand wellness.  And until you understand what that means, you won't be able to understand.  You can reply, "oh more mystic rubbish" but that would be like telling a chinese person that because you don't understand what they are saying, they are speaking mystic rubbish.  or calling him a barbarian.

I already stated that the ultimate question in science is "prove it".  my point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove without tens of thousands of years more.  My examples pertaining to other professions are simply to point out that these other professions are suffering the same weaknesses that chiros are.  for example, again, not bashing, but stating history.  stress was considered mumbojumbo. i mean, how can you test and prove stress?  it took a while, but now its accepted fact.  And I know you don't accept the cold theory, but face it... stress decreases immunity.  that's proven.  decreasing stress can help immunity.  proven.  chiropractic care decreases musculoskeletal stress, because PAIN IS STRESS.  proven.  what is mumbojumbo about saying that i can improve immunity?

I try not to get frustrated, but your out to attack, and not to learn.  I take it as a personal attack when I've spent the worst and hardest 4 years of my life, above undergrad, learning to help people.  going through severe depression.  studying my butt off.  accumulating 150k in student loans on top of my continuing ed.  fighting hard to learn as much as i can to help others.  and some random internet guy goes and tells me that I don't know shit, and that I've wasted my time cause nothing is proven.  meanwhile I'm getting people to walk when they couldn't stand.  lift their arms when they couldn't raise it above 20 degrees.  removing carpal tunnel.  all stuff I've seen!  YES- IT IS, i repeat. IS, a case study.  but dude, i don't care that you don't believe me, because I'm helping people, and changing lives while your standing on the sideline throwing tomatoes.  Tell the girl that i brought her vision from 20/50 to 20/25 in one treatment that I'm full of crap.  Yes yes, case studies.  but you should know, science doesn't know much either.  that's why there are opposing studies to everything.  I've been where you are.  I've been through undergrad.  I walking into chiropractic school beleiving that I might be learning nothing useful.  so yes.  I am a doctor.  I earned it.  It was the hardest time of my life, because it sucked learning the basics of medicine AND learning about chiropractic.  so how the hell would you know that chiropractic is easier?  have you done both?  oh yeah, maybe i should say it... do a study, and PROVE IT.  see how many people you get to go through both educations, and switch up the order.  and ask them.  do it yourself.  wait... that would be a case study and you would know nothing.

no?  i guess you must be full of crap.  I mean, at least I don't believe that science is a religion.  I don't believe chiropractic is a religion either.  I believe in helping people.  I use what knowledge i have, from basic science, and apply it.  don't bash me cause I apply it to the best of my abilities.  we don't know why a lot of things don't work, doesn't mean you don't use it.  And by the way.  I tell my patients when its a theory.  I tell my patients when its a fact.  I don't know HOW you would know that I "Spout misinformation".

not what you were looking for?  were you hoping that I would dig up all the data I've read, all the studies i've gone through, and spend hours compiling studies that you can do the same and find opposing studies for?  and then we'll smile and go, hey!  I guess no one knows anything!  or "its too early to tell!"

I've done the grunt work, I don't need to prove it to you.  but do me a favor, don't insult me just cause you think you know better.  Chiropractic sucks in a lot of ways.  I know that.  I struggle to call myself a chiropractor because of the internal issues I have with it.  I KNOW this.  but by all means, if your going to bash anything, bash the medical system because it is FAILING.  that is PROVEN.  go look it up.  I don't want to waste my time any more than I already have.  you want stats, they are there.  death tolls, failures, accidents, money.  go spend your time on something useful.

oh, and self regulated.  amen.  absolutely we are.  because the regulation we are dealing with so far is failing.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 01:32:21 PM by Ken PKChiro »
Any information or advice given is not to be interpreted as diagnosis, or statements of causality, conditions should be evaluated by a licensed practitioner of Chiropractic or Medical Doctor IN PERSON.  Therefore treatment recommendation should be considered similarly and bears no consequence to me.

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2008, 01:48:38 PM »
oh and some of our professors at my school.  honestly I think they suck at teaching, but you want creds.

Donald Dale Nansel B.A. PHD
NOT a chiropractor.  major researcher.  if i didn't know better I'd think he hates chiropractic.

susan st claire B.A., D.C., M.S., CCN, DACBN
nutrition guru

Thomas Souza
D.C., DACBSP
wrote the book on df dx for the chiropractor... used around the nation and by some nonchiropractic organizations

Theresa whitney
B.Ed., D.C.
yes, that's a bachelors of education.  she's pretty good

Daniel Dugan M.S.
dude, this guy is insane.  he ran biochemistry labs, owned them,  wrote serious medical technician manuals.  nonchiropractor again.  bloody genius, and i've asked him what he's doing at our school several times.

Mohan Menon B.S. Ph.D.
another genius, he once asked us if we did calculus in like 3rd grade.  and he was dead serious.  went to college at somewhere around 10 years old, and worked for the government for a while.

what does this all mean?  nothing right?  yeah, they are big wigs in their particular fields, but still... nothing.  i mean, how can i guarentee i learned quality stuff from them?  or how can i guarentee that I was a quality student?

btw, my information on the appendix is from CU boulder.  in my time, that knowledge had to be dug up if it was known at all.  you can't accuse a person of having a poor education because of lack of being updated on information.  i mean... unless your God.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 01:55:25 PM by Ken PKChiro »
Any information or advice given is not to be interpreted as diagnosis, or statements of causality, conditions should be evaluated by a licensed practitioner of Chiropractic or Medical Doctor IN PERSON.  Therefore treatment recommendation should be considered similarly and bears no consequence to me.

Offline Tai

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Re: Parkour and Chiropractic
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2008, 07:43:24 PM »


3) Pseudoscience: I've beaten this to death. The ultimate question in science = PROVE IT.


Seriously, if you think that chiropractic isn't a proven practice you are just a moron. What makes you think that the alignment and connections between you bodies nerves and the such not make things work better. For gods sake, it is the same principle as a garden hose, kink it and the water doesn't flow through it, same with the blood vessels and nerves of the body. I mean you wouldn't walk around with dislocated shoulder, and that's the same principle, things out of place.

You need to get a clue are learn to stop throwing rocks at the sun