Topic: Milk = strong bones = lie?

[Brandan Mendenhall]

So here's the story: I was at work yesterday, and it was my boss's birthday, so we were having like this little birthday shindig, with cake and whatnot. I try not to eat cake (I made an exception for the birthday shennanigans), but when I do, I like to have milk. Call me crazy.

Anywho, one of my coworkers says something like, "Awww, Brandan likes a wittle glass of milk with his cake!" or something childish to that effect. She was just kidding, obviously.

So I reply, "Whatever. Milk is delicious. And it builds strong bones." I'm sure we've all heard/said that before right?

After I said that, she went off on this TANGENT about how that's all a lie, and it's just a marketing ploy. Apparently, she says there's phosphate or something in milk that actually degenerates bone material (for lack of a better word). Somehow I just can't wrap my head around the concept that milk does the exact opposite of what I've always thought it does. Anyone care to shed some light?

[Charles Moreland]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18704544?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

CONCLUSIONS: Milk consumption, preferably to other calcium sources, is associated with lumbar BMC and BMD in postmenarcheal girls. Aside from being a major source of calcium, milk provides phosphates, magnesium, proteins, and as yet unidentified nutrients likely to favor bone health.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296324?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Milk supplementation showed positive effects on bone mineral accretion when accounting for the changing skeletal size during growth. The effects were mainly on the lower limbs.

They're not the best sources. But regardless of what I just posted, I'm still rather against milk. It helped me gain tons of lean mass fast, and for that it was useful, but I'm so happy to not have to drink anymore of it. It's another one of those diet choices you need to make for yourself. Milk causes me to over produce mucus like crazy and I find it hard to sleep. I'm also not a fan of the pastuerization process. Some people do well with milk, some people don't.

EDIT - btw this should be in the diet forum

[Ken PKChiro]

source of calcium doesn't mean absorbing calcium.

hormones can accelerate growth, doesn't mean we should take hormones in mass.  (which milk... is...)  also... who sponsored these studies?  good question to ask.

basic truth is milk is basic.  to absorb calcium, you need an acidic environment.

[Chris Salvato]

source of calcium doesn't mean absorbing calcium.

hormones can accelerate growth, doesn't mean we should take hormones in mass.  (which milk... is...)  also... who sponsored these studies?  good question to ask.

basic truth is milk is basic.  to absorb calcium, you need an acidic environment.

Milk is acidic...

http://www.ilri.org/InfoServ/Webpub/Fulldocs/ILCA_Manual4/Milkchemistry.htm
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html

Fresh milk has a pH of 6.7 and is therefore slightly acidic.

Milk, cow                   6.40 - 6.80
Milk, Acidophilus   4.09 - 4.25
Milk, condensed           6.33
Milk, evaporated    5.90 - 6.30
Milk, Goat's           6.48
Milk, peptonized           7.10
Milk, Sour, fine curd   4.70 - 5.65

Only time it goes significantly basic is after it peptonized

[Ken PKChiro]

fresh milk, what about after its pasteurized?
oh, and 6.7 pH hardly counts as acidic even so, maybe barely. 

[Chris Salvato]

Bah even after peptonization it is only BARELY basic!

I can't see how heating up milk would cause a release of free hydrogen ions which would cause an increase in pH significant enough for it to become basic...then again, im no chemist...

[Ken PKChiro]

killing the pro-bacteria makes a difference .  anyway, i think we agree, we're just picking at details.  calcium is best absorbed in a acidic environment, and milk barely counts, that's why the whole movement of putting calcium in orange juice.

then again, calcium isn't always the problem for calcium deficiencies, as you know .

[Dan Elric]

then again, calcium isn't always the problem for calcium deficiencies, as you know.

Well if you lack calcium one would assume you need to intake calcium... >.>  You have silly logic sir. 

[Ken PKChiro]

haha. it sounds silly, but in the health profession, its common knowledge

[Travie the Clown]

then again, calcium isn't always the problem for calcium deficiencies, as you know.

Well if you lack calcium one would assume you need to intake calcium... >.>  You have silly logic sir. 

You can be getting a healthy amount of a nutrient and have a deficiency in it.
Deficiency can occur because your body just isn't taking the nutrient in, even if its in your body; for whatever reason.
For example:
In the high-protein diet.  Iron is consumed in larger quantities than calcium.  Now, you may get the recommended amount of calcium, however, because you have incredibly high amounts of iron; your body focuses on the iron more.  Because the body focuses its energy on the iron supply, calcium is not absorbed into the body properly, and gets discarded quickly.  This leads to cases of osteoporosis.


It may also be that you aren't getting an adequate amount of something that helps promote absorption of a specific nutrient into your body.  Example: Vitamin C is better absorbed into the body in its fat-soluble form (the water-soluble flushes from your system rather quickly.)  You may not be getting enough fat in your diet to help the vitamin-c absorb, and you may be flushing out the water-soluble portion of it too quickly.  Leading to vitamin-c deficiencies...

Note: Not saying 'you' specifically...just...in general.

Also note that this is not saying this is the case every time, but just mere examples to show why greater intake of a certain nutrient isn't necessary.

[Chris Salvato]

then again, calcium isn't always the problem for calcium deficiencies, as you know.

Well if you lack calcium one would assume you need to intake calcium... >.>  You have silly logic sir. 

You can be getting a healthy amount of a nutrient and have a deficiency in it.
Deficiency can occur because your body just isn't taking the nutrient in, even if its in your body; for whatever reason.
For example:
In the high-protein diet.  Iron is consumed in larger quantities than calcium.  Now, you may get the recommended amount of calcium, however, because you have incredibly high amounts of iron; your body focuses on the iron more.  Because the body focuses its energy on the iron supply, calcium is not absorbed into the body properly, and gets discarded quickly.  This leads to cases of osteoporosis.

I have no idea what you're talking about, honestly.

Be more specific -- how is the body "focusing" on absorbing iron?

Honestly, I never heard of this iron vs. calcium battle you're talking about so substantiation of this would be appreciated...

It may also be that you aren't getting an adequate amount of something that helps promote absorption of a specific nutrient into your body.  Example: Vitamin C is better absorbed into the body in its fat-soluble form (the water-soluble flushes from your system rather quickly.)  You may not be getting enough fat in your diet to help the vitamin-c absorb, and you may be flushing out the water-soluble portion of it too quickly.  Leading to vitamin-c deficiencies...

Vitamin C deficiencies are nearly impossible in today's world...

While there is a fat and water soluble form, this is usually a non-issue since Vitamin C is in everything...

The argument here would have been better made, imho, if you focused on vitamins A, D, E and K which cannot be absorbed at ALL unless consumed with fat.

You are definitely on the right track though with identifying the agents that help absorption of nutrients...better examples include the fat-soluble vitamins like A, D, E and K or the Iron/Vitamin B12 relationship..

[Travie the Clown]

Hmm...er my bad on the iron thing.  Was trying to repeat what my teacher blabbed about in class, didn't come out well.
I'll try a different explanation!
High protein intake raises the level of uric acid in your blood; which is toxic material in your blood.  The body reacts by dumping water into your system to flush it out; which also flushes out essential nutrients.  Calcium is effected more-so because the body will take calcium from the bones to help combat the acidity in the blood.  So not only does the calcium you've consumed get flushed out rather quickly from your body, but your body is also leeching what it does have already to combat what its doing to itself.

My bad with the Vitamin-C thing.  Was the first one that popped in my head so I just focused on that...I blame the fact I was drinking Orange juice at the time.

K and the others would make more sense.

[Chris Salvato]

High protein intake raises the level of uric acid in your blood; which is toxic material in your blood.  The body reacts by dumping water into your system to flush it out; which also flushes out essential nutrients.  Calcium is effected more-so because the body will take calcium from the bones to help combat the acidity in the blood.  So not only does the calcium you've consumed get flushed out rather quickly from your body, but your body is also leeching what it does have already to combat what its doing to itself.

Hrm....

I am not sure that all of that is really correct...all of it seems kinda shady but I am not well versed enough in the particulars to correct you.

Calcium certainly doesn't get "flushed out" unless it needs to be.  This is the beauty of semi-permeable membranes.  I am fairly certain that calcium isn't used to maintain acid/base balance in the blood but then again, i am not as well versed as I should be on this so I will wait for someone else like Steve or Ken to correct you on this...if you are in fact incorrect.

My bad with the Vitamin-C thing.  Was the first one that popped in my head so I just focused on that...I blame the fact I was drinking Orange juice at the time.

K and the others would make more sense.

Vitamin C does have a fat soluable form that IS more easily absorbed than it's water soluble counterpart - ascorbic acid.  However, this really isn't that big of a deal in modern nutrition...at least I don't think so, anyway...

[Steven Low]

Calcium is regulated by parathyroid hormone and calcitonin. These are actually VERY tightly regulated because of need for intracellular calcium levels especially in muscles. Same with the heart and nervous system.

I have NEVER heard that Ca2+ ions are in the blood to combat acidity. In fact, both the carbonate and phosphate buffer systems account for the majority (if not all) of buffering of blood:

CO2 + H2O <----> H+ + HCO3-
H3PO4 <-----> H+ + H2PO4-

http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Buffer/Buffer.html


Do you have any sources to back up your claim?

I have vaguely heard something about acidity leeching hydroxyapatite (which is the hard mineral that forms the bone), but I haven't seen it substantiated anywhere yet. The stuff I've seen on acid and hydroxyapatite say that acidity lowers supersaturation.... however, in the body pH is VERY tightly regulated at 7.2 +/- .1-.2 so... there's not going to be THAT much change from increased acidity.

[John Conway]

sooooooooo

in all of these confusing words and equations....

does milk help your bones: yes or no?
(unless it depends on the person....then yes why? no why?)

keep it simple for those of us who dont have a PhD in milk-slang

[Chris Salvato]

take 2 multivitamins a day, eat hearty and stay active doing activities that stress your bones (running, jumping, lifting, pushing, pulling) and you will never have to worry about your bones...ever....

Then you can drink milk or not and thats pretty much up to you.

I drank a GALLON of whole milk every day for 4 months.  If i was going to have my bones turn to dust because of it then it would have happened.

Your body is good at regulating shit...lets not get too caught up in the details.  Balanced diet and vitamin supplementation and you have nothing to worry about.

[Alec Furtado]

For taking 2 multis a day, what if your multi already has maxed out your daily intake? I know that the numbers they put on there are not the actual numbers required for your body. Would it be bad to take it again or is it not that much of an increase and your body will probably take care of it?

[Chris Salvato]

http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php?topic=11629.msg137561#msg137561

100% is not 100% for YOU

[Travie the Clown]

Do you have any sources to back up your claim?

Nutrition Concepts and Controversies, 11th Edition, by Frances Sizer and Eleanor Whitney

And also notes I took during Nutrition class.  Although its possible the teacher's notes were skewed from whatever source she was viewing.

/shrug

[Steven Low]

Can you quote what the book says on the subject.. since I assume you're the only one here that owns it.