Topic: "Comparison" - Why Not?

[Mark Toorock]

The comparison question is actually fairly frequent, natural curiosity - how far can other people jump. I don't think there is necessarily anything competitive or negative about it - if I can't jump one whole leon-thingy I don't feel bad - I may even try harder.

So, the question is, should APK start a forum with a bunch of threads for people to write some stats - a long jump thread - a high jump thread -
we'll know when someone is using a funny tape measure - when they say "I have a standing jump of 1.2 Leons" we know they are lying

For people with claims on the fringe we can always ask for video backup - easy enough.

The idea isn't to have a competition, but maybe even to show the benefits of parkour on health - are Traceurs healthier (fitter) than the average population? We claim it aids fitness - where's the data?

Please don't add any specs in this thread - this is just to discuss the idea.

Please add pros and cons and support your claims - "it's stupid" and "it's great" don't hold any value unless you give a reason



I'll start - pros - Gathering Data that may support claims that Parkour improves fitness. - We may also find what training methods work well by asking people with longer / faster / stronger responses.

[ZacharyCohn]

I would be wary. I feel like the best comparison to make is against yourself. If people want to measure, I would encourage them to measure their distances - by their own foot. That way they know what is in, just outside of, and way outside of their limits. Keeping track of this is also a great motivator - just like a workout log you can see how far you've progressed.

Measuring against other people though, I feel, will only encourage progressing too rapidly. If you can only jump six feet, but JDoe can jump eight - especially if JDoe hasn't been training as long as you, you'll feel bad. But perhaps JDoe is a foot taller than you, was an olympic long jumper, etc etc. Everyone comes from a different, unique background, and as such I not only don't think it's fair, but think it's a bad idea to compare against others. I just think it'll cause jealousy, resentment, and encourage people to push too hard, too soon, too fast.

[Andy Animus Tran]

Counterpoint - The measurement of jump distance and such doesn't necessarily correlate to a more fit body.  On a scientific level, there's actually no grounds for relating the two.  An extremely unfit person could have a very long or high jump because of natural genetics.  I've met many of those, myself.  Likewise, a very fit person could have a very short jump, because of genetics or because their CNS hasn't developed for proper jump technique yet.  It's a stretch to claim that jump distance correlates to fitness level.

On the whole, I do understand the benefit, as it could at least show that traceurs can jump further than the average person.

[shadow1234]

I think there is too much stigma around here about any sort of competition what so ever. I say go ahead and make the thread. Its not like anybody is being forced to read it or contribute to it if they don't like it.

[Mark Toorock]

Zac - would YOU feel bad or angry or jealous and would YOU try to train too fast? I feel like people with concerns similar to yours often talk about "this person" - but nobody says "I would ..." ... therefore, personally, I don't feel they are valid concerns. If we started to see that as a trend, then evidence would support it, but records exist - how many people go to the guinness book of world records and try to do things that top athletes do and then are crushed and lead crappy lives when they fail? It is easy enough to find stats of sports people in many fields - I don't think putting them here creates evil. I also have to say that I'm not sure where "fair" ever comes into the equation - what's "unfair" about people posting how far / high they can jump?


Animus - I agree, there may or may not be a correlation between one measure (long jump) and overall fitness - but I am talking about measuring several aspects - 50 meter dash, jump distance and height, number of pullups (open to suggestions that relate to abilities which tie closely to Parkour / freerunning) - from which I feel there can be a correlation to fitness.
I also feel that your example of "genetics" doesn't really have a basis - could it happen? yes - does that make it scientifically sound? not by a longshot. It could also happen in reverse, therefore not a strong point.

[James Bazil Bianco]

I don't think there is anything inherently bad about comparison, but I feel it more beneficial, at least for beginning Traceurs to compare them selves to their own standards. We Don't need anyone with a week or so of training to see someone whom he thinks is on the same level as him  doing a 9 feet precision jump and because of this he tries it on the idea "hell, he can do it, why can't I?". This may be true of only a few but I still hesitate and definitely feel thinking it through is a good idea (like we are doing right now   ).

But on the pro side for more experienced Traceurs who know how to approach training and have a grasp on their bodies capabilities it can help, as long as the statistics are accompanied by the techniques used to gain them.

[Worm]

It's great to jam with other people and be inspired by what they can do--I know I've seen precisions in Silver Spring that I would have claimed were flat-out impossible if I hadn't seen others nail them.  Not everyone has people to jam with, though, and reading other people's stats can help your "parkour vision" in the same way.  Comparison != competition.

Also, our training is so far removed from modern life that it can be easy to think, "Man, getting over that wall was tough for me--I bet not many people could do that."  And it's true that most ordinary, everyday people would be stopped cold by even a six-foot wall.  In this community, however, that's pretty small potatoes, and it's good to stay humble and realize how much farther you have to go in your training.  At the same time, you shouldn't be frustrated because you can't make a 30-foot wallrun--neither can anyone else!

Learning about others' training methods seems like the #1 argument in favor of this idea.  If someone has incredibly quick climb-ups, it makes perfect sense to ask how many pull-ups, dips, or muscle-ups they can do.  Once you find that out, you can train with the mindset of, "If I achieve this level of fitness, then it's only technique/practice keeping me from that level of ability."  When I first started, I found it frustratingly difficult to determine when I simply needed more conditioning. It was extremely beneficial to read about other people's workouts and get an idea of what "base level" of fitness would give me the tools I needed to move how I wanted.

Mostly, though, I'm just curious about how far a Leon-Luny-Leap is.

[David Glass]

I've had some thoughts myself about incorporating some of these stats in my training log. I do keep my times for running, and stats for strength training, but as far as jumping, I just mark with tape.

Could we have an addendum to the training journal called Stats Tracking?

If we did, anyone asking could just look it up. More valuable even, they could see how people's stats improve with time

[Mark Toorock]

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If we did, anyone asking could just look it up. More valuable even, they could see how people's stats improve with time
Yes, two of the things I would find valuable about it - especially the over time thing - we keep telling people "just compare to yourself" ... but how many of us in at least some way follow the path of people we see in videos or train with at jams - we don't pull out a tape measure - but we are inspired by what nonetheless is a measurable thing.

[Jus7in]

Counterpoint - The measurement of jump distance and such doesn't necessarily correlate to a more fit body.  On a scientific level, there's actually no grounds for relating the two.  An extremely unfit person could have a very long or high jump because of natural genetics.  I've met many of those, myself.  Likewise, a very fit person could have a very short jump, because of genetics or because their CNS hasn't developed for proper jump technique yet.  It's a stretch to claim that jump distance correlates to fitness level.

On the whole, I do understand the benefit, as it could at least show that traceurs can jump further than the average person.

Well we could post the distance in comparison to your body length...ie. I can jump 120% of my body length.

[Mark Toorock]

yes, I did mention in the other comparison thread that people's height, weight, and athleticism all play a role. Again, the idea isn't to compare yourself in an "I can't do that so I'm a loser" kind of way - it's to see what other people in your height / weight class are doing. If you use that to limit you in any way it is your own fault. If you are jumping further than others do you stop training? If you are jumping less far do you give up? In either case I can't blame the stats!!

[Milquetoast]

I agree with Zac.  However, I'm less concerned about hurt feelings than newcomers hurting themselves physically.  Just as most people believe they are better drivers than most other drivers out there, I'm pretty sure most who would be interested in trying Parkour don't realize how hard it actually is.  Since all of the posted numbers are going to be on the high side (you can bet that I'm not going to announce to the world that I can only do a 4-foot precision...  Oh, damn...  ), the forum / threads will basically become a pissing contest for the Parkour gods out there.  While those of us who have been doing Parkour for a while will know whether or not we can reach the limits, a newcomer may mistakenly see these as benchmarks and kill themselves in the process.  Probably a good thing for humanity, but probably not such a good thing for Parkour.

[David Glass]

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If we did, anyone asking could just look it up. More valuable even, they could see how people's stats improve with time
Yes, two of the things I would find valuable about it - especially the over time thing - we keep telling people "just compare to yourself" ... but how many of us in at least some way follow the path of people we see in videos or train with at jams - we don't pull out a tape measure - but we are inspired by what nonetheless is a measurable thing.

On that note, I think you are very right about something:

A while ago I saw a video of a guy doing a precision in what seemed to me a pretty impressive long jump. One of the YouTube comments made a remark abuot the jump stating "Looks like an 8 footer to me". From that day, 8 foot long jump became somewhat of a standard (of course 8 foot long jump to precision is probably a lot more impressive).

You are right about the fact that if we have posted 'standards' (for lack of a better word, maybe 'averages' is more suitable), beginners can use these as benchmarks.

As for Eugene's comments regarding people getting hurt trying to push themselves to achieve these standards, this is where the benchmarks log will come in handy. If mine were to start today, itwould be something like this:

Time Training: 4 months (1 month off due to shoulder and knee injuries (20 days, non-consecutive) and mild bronchitis(10 days))
Stats: Standing long jump: 8 feet, 2 inches
High jump (that I've been able to measure to date): 3.5 feet (height of obstacle I landed on)
Max height drop: 5 feet (jumping up from 3.5 foot obstacle)
Best 400m sprint time: 1 minute, 12 seconds
Longest run: 6 miles (in 1 hr 20 minutes approx)

Moves practicing:
Rolls (perfecting on grass)
Landings (perfecting, occasional mild inclination to the right side observed)
Monkey (incomplete)
Kong (incomplete)
Lazy (perfecting)
Thief (perfecting)
Dash (perfecting)
Turn (perfecting)
Tic-Tac (haven't started)
Pop vault (for wall pass) (haven't started)
Precisions (perfecting)
Cats (Perfecting, trying to accomplish turn vault from cat on 6' wooden fence)

'Perfecting' meaning completed on a consistent basis, working and drilling form
'Incomplete' meaning 'Haven't completed for the first time, although consistently training'
'Haven't started' (self explanatory)

I've been thinking of branching off my Training Log, keeping a secondary one for PK tracking only, then again, I've also been thinking of keeping a log for diet tracking, flexibility tracking.... (you get the point). So far my training log has been almost exclusively for strength and endurance tracking.

I think if we have sub-sections for the Training Journals for logging these, it would be of exceptional value for those attempting to gage what would be a decent beginner's objective (I guess)

If I were new to PK, I'd probably open CptBongue's PK Training Journal and think "Hey, I guess 7.5' isn't so bad, Cpt been training for 3 months and he can do 8' 2'', so I'm probably on my way", then I'd turn to page 6 of Cpt's journal and see that 3 months after he started logging, he was able to complete a Kong along the long end of the table... Oh, and I could also see what he did to accomplish this completion, like working on stretching his hips so he could tuck better, doing burpees, etc etc

This way we would see less of those 'My knees don't go through my arms' posts, and when we did, David Glass would point them to page 5 of his PK training log

OK, I think I made my case 

[Steven Low]

A little friendly competition is always a good idea.

Plus SHOULD motivate the rest of us who aren't at leon level.

Data is always good.

Everyone should always note, though, that progress is specific to the individual. But other people's abilities should give us something to strive for. Like Leon's jumping or say BBoy junior's planche pushups or any other strength/athletic/etc. inspiring thing you want as your goal.

[BobT]

I've been attempting to to this on our local board and it's been pretty slow going -> link

[David Glass]

the forum / threads will basically become a pissing contest for the Parkour gods out there.

This is also a very personal thing. I have some strength goals myself, and have been accurately tracking my progress.

I have gone into other people's logs, particularly those who are at a comparable level to mine in terms of their goals. For example, Tacoman and I frequently encourage each other. With regards to pull-ups, we have different training methods, but are at similar levels. If I saw Tacoman gaining a lead in terms of how many pull-ups he can do, I would regard his training method more effective than mine and would probably try out his GTG method, but from that to saying 'So you can do 10! HA, I can do 11, and with one arm tied behind my back!' I think if you fall into that, you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice, so it's kind of a personal choice.

I say put it out, let each individual make of it what he/she may

[Mark Toorock]

Bobt - very cool.

[Andy Keller]

you shouldn't be frustrated because you can't make a 30-foot wallrun--neither can anyone else!

except...Leon...

Mostly, though, I'm just curious about how far a Leon-Luny-Leap is.

Ya see, 'Luny' is a variation of 'Lunar.' This means that Leon is really refering to a Leon-Lunar-Leap. And I'm sure you know how far that is...

[Milquetoast]

the forum / threads will basically become a pissing contest for the Parkour gods out there.

This is also a very personal thing. I have some strength goals myself, and have been accurately tracking my progress.

I have gone into other people's logs, particularly those who are at a comparable level to mine in terms of their goals. For example, Tacoman and I frequently encourage each other. With regards to pull-ups, we have different training methods, but are at similar levels. If I saw Tacoman gaining a lead in terms of how many pull-ups he can do, I would regard his training method more effective than mine and would probably try out his GTG method, but from that to saying 'So you can do 10! HA, I can do 11, and with one arm tied behind my back!' I think if you fall into that, you're doing yourself a HUGE disservice, so it's kind of a personal choice.

I say put it out, let each individual make of it what he/she may

I agree that it may not devolve into a pissing match (that example was kind of extreme).  But if it's meant to be an individual thing, why would a separate board / thread be necessary?  Doesn't the current Training Journals board already serve this purpose?

[Mark Toorock]

There is no consistency in the current jo0urnals - which makes it hard to turn into statistics

If we made one thread and each member updated their info, you could loook down a list

Broad Jump Thread -

Leon 11.2' 3/30/92
M2 3.5' 2/27/04  3.6' 6/13/08
Dac Akh 9.4' 4/23/05 10.2' 5/12/08
Skipper 23' 10/17/07

Then you can go look in the user's training journal first post to find all their stats if you're so inclined and see what they have been doing.

When someone beats their old PR by a significant amount (in other words this thread is not for a .5 inch gain in a month, but 3" over 6 months maybe) then they can update the thread that has just name - distance - date, or name-height - date, or whatever I did- date