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Rafe
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« on: January 05, 2006, 01:35:55 PM » |
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What make syou so attached to the title freestyle parkour. You must know of course that the term was invented by Urban Free Flow to describe something that was allready named freerunning/yamakasi and that they no longer even use the term. If the people that invented and the promoted the term have abandoned it why are you still using it?
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Formerly Faelcind
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Deft
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 02:09:25 PM » |
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For me the term Freestyle Parkour best describes what I do. I train/practise/perform parkour but with a dash more freedom of expression through various movements in which I create my style. I think that the term free running is less effective because it totally removes the word parkour and for the most part I do parkour I just happen to add a occasional flip, palmspin, or such. I don't call it feestyle because UFF told me to. I only do that to pacify the hardcore parkour traditionalists, but I do feel that the term freestyle is the best way to describe the sport/art/discipline I practise.
XMA evolved from traditional martial arts but the words Martial Arts are still in the titles of both practitioners. There is a distinct difference between traditional kung fu and XMA but they are both part of Martial Arts. The words Freestyle Parkour describes the evolution from the strictly traditional and only effective movements to the new ways of freestyle which allow for more expression through flips, spins, and such
something I have felt for a while is that the hardcore traditionalists hate the term Freestyle Parkour and want everyone to embrace the term Free Running because it lacks the term Parkour. I think that is unfitting because we are 99% parkour and 1% freestyle - so why should I have to abandon the term parkour altogether just because I added a palmspin?
If someone I know were to coin the phrase Freestyle Parkour I would still use it as much and as effectively as I do know. I don't use anything that UFF says to hold weight or to back up my case. Freestyle Parkour best describes my outdoor activities.
Faelcind- I ask you Why are you so against the term Freestyle Parkour? You seem to hate it more that I embrace it. (I have a reason to embrace it because it describes the sport/art/discipline that I am a part of.)
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 The joy of surpassing the limits of the body is open to all. -Mihaly Csikszentmilhaly |
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gearsighted
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2006, 02:21:14 PM » |
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The reasoning is this: If Parkour is determined less by the actual movements than by the mindset that makes you a Traceur, then the freestyle tag negates any semblance of relation to Parkour.
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Deft
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Patas
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2006, 03:53:33 PM » |
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Parkour IS determined by actual movements. (It is not the only thing used to determine what it is. elements such as efficiency and flow are also big factors, and much more than I can easily describe in a sentence or two.) I understand that the philosophy is EXTREMELY important in understanding this sport/art/discipline.) I see people putting limits on parkour's actual movements everytime I see someone SAY WHAT IS NOT PARKOUR. When I see someone put a tag on all their threads saying things like "flips are not parkour" I can feel the boundaries created by the mindset of that traceur on what their concept of parkour is and is not.
gear- your little one sentence responce was nice and pretty but everytime someone points a finger at another they point 3 back at themselves and it is in that sense that I feel you error. Also I feel like your responce is a copout because you did not even touch on any of my points which I feel to be valid. Nor has anyone commented on the closet freestyle tendencies that the majority of people here have. I think all the participants in the war against Freestyle Parkour have been more than eager to tell me what IS part of parkour and what IS NOT parkour by this adding to the boundaries of actual movements. I agree that parkour must be stronger in the mind of a traceur than in his actual vaults or jumps but I feel like movement is very important in itself being as how a traceur in action is constantly in movement/motion. gear- do you have any thoughts that pertain to the questions that Faelcind asked which was the reason for starting this thread?
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The joy of surpassing the limits of the body is open to all. -Mihaly Csikszentmilhaly |
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gearsighted
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2006, 04:24:13 PM » |
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It seems odd that so far you are the only one pointing any fingers. My sentence is the essence of the entire argument. A speed-vault to cat-leap to drop to roll isn't Parkour if you're thinking "OK, now a speed-vault would look cool...I could jump that, but a cat-leap would be more impressive to those girls over there...my knees have been hurting, but I'll skip the turn vault and just drop to roll because I'm making a video..." Even though these are all movements that could be considered "Parkour Moves" the mindset with which they are performed isn't the mindset of mindful efficiency. When you look at a video that is deemed "Parkour" but it has obvious discrepancies, the movement is the easiest aspect to latch onto as an example of what IS and ISN'T Parkour. Needless to say, this is an internet debate which has no real merit, as a video in and of itself isn't Parkour, at best it can be a representation of the movements of a run. More often than not, people make videos to showcase their various talents. If these happent to be tricking, acrobatics, Parkour and rock-climbing, then so be it, as long as they make the distinction. This really isn't so complicated, I am still baffled at the inability of so many people to just simply accept Parkour in its simplicity instead of complicating it with their own preconceptions. Either way, here is what my post was in relation to, I will put it in context so that it may operate as an answer to your final question: Faelcind- I ask you Why are you so against the term Freestyle Parkour? answer: If Parkour is determined less by the actual movements than by the mindset that makes you a Traceur, then the freestyle tag negates any semblance of relation to Parkour. |
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 05:57:43 PM by gear »
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trACEur
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The big Hair-eded one!!
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2006, 04:26:42 PM » |
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Deft, do you realise that the Term Freestyle Parkour makes no sense? That when you say "I do Parkour and I add a little palmspin" that it isn't Parkour at all? That's one reason I personally hate the term so much, because it's an oxymoron, furthermore it leads to confusion to people less educated on Parkour and how the term freestyle Parkour came about. The term reduces Parkour to just a set of movements while it is inteded to be a mindset of effiecency where the moves don't really matter.
The reason I hate it the most, though, is that when newer people are introduced to it the will drop the adjective almost immediatly. All they will see are the flips and the spetacular movements and all they will remeber is "Parkour". Then, they will go around telling their friends about this new flippy sport he found out about called "Parkour"... or, wait... Extreme Parkour, something like that, and then one of those kids will break his neck trying to a backflip off a rail while screaming "PEKAY FOR LIIIIIFE!!!!", the ambulance and police will come, ask what was happening, the kids will then say "Our friend was doing Parkour and he fell!" Then, the media will get a hold of this and Fox 11 will do an expose on the new dangerous activity called Parkour that paralysed a young man and how it is dangerous and should be banned everywhere.
Ya get it? and you can't deny that this won't happen. It's already started. Think about it, back when UF was still promoting FSPK, how many people on the forum (besides the "purist wankers") actually used the whole term "Freestyle Parkour"? What was it everyone was getting so mad at Matthew about that little while ago? Oh yeah! His use of the word Parkour when he MEANT "Freestyle Parkour". What about that kid that died because he fell of a roof in Britain. What did they say he was doing? ÂÂ
P.s. Good Post Gear, and GET ON AIM!!!!
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-Tell me how you MOVE, and I'll tell you who you ARE-
"For every newbie that says Parkour is what you want it to be- God kills a Kitten." -Ruzkin
-www.PkCali.com-
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Tyson Cecka
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2006, 06:06:56 PM » |
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IF you are only concerned about style then you are not doing parkour in the first place. Train whatever you want and move however you want, but whenever you are representing parkour, be respectful of the art that we love. The term Freestyle Parkour is not respectful in it's "meaning" or it's existance, and I like Parkour too much to aid in it becoming like skateboarding.
handy quote from feraess:
"Any movement can potentially be used in parkour because there are an infinite variety of situations you could find
yourself in, but no one movement is parkour. A speed vault is not necessarily parkour, nor is a catleap or any
other movement, because they are not always appropriate in a given situation.
Parkour is not a question of using specific movements. Parkour is the mental approach of using what is appropriate."
And I would add just in general that you are reacting to obstacles in your way, focusing entirely outside of yourself or others.
Sorry for the wandering post.
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Matthew Lee Willis
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2006, 09:01:13 PM » |
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I am not going to clutter this post with my ideas until someone really wants them.
You know guys this debate will continue. It’s really getting to the point that when UF decided to come out with FreeStyle Parkour there was no way of turning back on the term. I mean, they have about...12,000 Members. The ability to kill this term will go unrewarded. I truly believe this. I think the sooner that people come to term with the fact that its something that will stay and not go away, we may actually be able to talk. Thank you for making a good thread Faelcind, about all of this. I respect all of your opinions but its just something that these people practice. I know that its not the best term to use because it disrespects "True Parkourists" (although there is no such thing as "True Parkourists" just "Parkourists." I guess if you wanted to start pointing fingers then it would really be UFF. There is no real reason to point here but we all were under the wing of UFF. The taught us of Belle and Cyril and others. Deep down they were teaching us of what they believed was right.
The Change that is coming with UFF is slow and quite frankly stupid and unimportant as of late. They don’t even have the ability to explain what is different and what they are doing with this change. They are down right not taking the responsibilities they have seriously. Which lead us to what they have done with this word “freestyle Parkour.� They have drilled these ideas with us. True it is up to us to take the RED pill or the BLUE pill. The term is there. It’s a "way" to practice parkour. Weather you guys understand this or not it is real. This is a way of practicing parkour. You have Zen Buddhism and Buddhism. It was never meant to go to Zen Buddhism but it did. People changed the ideas...the philosophies.
So this is the way people are going to practice. Where there is an A and B also where a possible flow can be broken by a not 100% efficiency of movement. Yea that kills all of you out there. There are some things that are not conclusive to the original Idea. Well, we all have to deal with it. We will have to sit back and watch those ruin it for others who sit in pity for those or amazement of how stupid, ridiculous, un-ruley and un-respectful to the sport. It may pass...it may not. It's something we have to live with. It has its own practitioners, its own name, its own following. So who is the back bone of this sport? Belle is for Parkour, and UFF is not for FreeStyle anymore...so who is it. Deft will be...I will be...Texas Parkour will be...We may never know will be. Maybe someone will emerge to continue the ideas behind it going; maybe not...Maybe UFF will go back to FreeStyle.
I am really not to sure how to end this post besides a conjoining of ideas. A acknowledgment of Disciplines and studies is what is going to help get people to agree with each other. OF course there has to be some agreements of distinction like I so...stumbled onto when arguing using the word just parkour in 1/4 of my discussions. The thing is that APK was invented so that we call all share our ideas and philosophies. The reason why APK has not Chosen a side is because we should all look at ever angle and still be accepting of ideas and concepts. Thank you M2 for making this decision...You will never end up like UFF and pull a KERRY. PEACE
*you know like peace that mini-me gives to Austin Powers*
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Parkour:Phone Calls
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Rafe
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2006, 09:54:39 PM » |
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Unduanted, gear and traceur all expressed my thoughts as eloquently as I could have hoped too. In essence FRPK is an oxymoronic name that disrespects both parkour and Yamakasi/free running. It was invented by a team who are infamous for the way they have disrespected and profiteered from parkour.
In arguing for the term FRPK both of you still hang on to UFF driven misunderstandings of parkour its not about the movements or a about a flow its about the mindset of swiftly efficiently overcoming obstacles. Untill you take this mindset into your practice you can not understand parkour and I don't think its right to call what you do parkour. By continuing to use the term parkour to describe what you do(freestyle attached or no) you foster misunderstandings of the art.
I was never under UFF wing so to speak, so maybe that affects my perception but just because a term is used and will continued to be used does not make it right.
I have never said that people shouldn't move in any way the want (short of sheer reckless stupidity) but parkour is defined by simple principle saying that FRPK is way of practicing parkour is like saying that swimming is way of practicing jogging it simply doesn't make sense.
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 09:59:04 PM by Faelcind »
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Formerly Faelcind
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Skipper
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Mandrill
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 10:12:55 PM » |
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I really just skimmed the thread... but UF not only stopped using the term, but they admitted that it doesnt exist..... So here we have the traceurs (the ones that stayed loyal to parkour.... or "purists" if you will) over on .NET claiming it never existed, you have UF, the all powerful creators of that term admitting that it never existed..... where will the advancement come from? I believe that something of the sort exists, but its not that Im so in love with the term 'parkour' that i dont want it anywhere else, rather it implies something that parkour is not a part of. when you hear FRPK, what do you think? thats right, flips. Flips are moves, and to compose a run of Moves, rather than move to compose a run, you defeat anything that has the right to posess the term "parkour." and trACEur is completely right. Matthew was a fine example of people just 'forgetting' to call it freestyle parkour and reverting back to 'parkour.' If youre not going to be proud of your sporty Mcflip showcase when you have to call it something else, then i would sit back and figure out why you are doing it  but this isnt a rip on free runners (Hey! thats a nice name! and I heard its looking for a home too!), Im just doing a little protection for parkour and what it means to me and my life. Think of the situation as a computer you buy from dell. you take it apart and what do you see? a million stickers that say "warranty void if broken." If anything is changed, then Dell wont take responsability for what you claim is theirs... almost as if Dell doesnt think of it as a dell computer anymore. So, people saying things like "I train/practise/perform parkour but with a dash more freedom of expression through various movements in which I create my style" are offset by the meaning of parkour and its mindset, because in parkour, you will ALWAYS have your own style, and trying to change the meaning just so you dont have to put in the same effort is taking the easy way out. Train how you will and get good at what you like. but please think hard about what you call it while talking to friends/parents/media/etc.  |
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 With great power, comes great..... um..... x-ray vision? |
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Matthew Lee Willis
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 10:29:35 PM » |
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Holly cow guys...its not like I try to explain your point. I explain my point. Im not arugeing agaisnt your point im trying to give you the reasons behind ours. Why not comment on what my whole post was about. Finding a medium. Dont try to change me...man this is what I have to deal with my GF. She is catholic and I am not...she be trying to change me all the time. We had to find a medium and we did. FreeStyle is obviously a Different Discipline. That is why I am trying to make fact here. So posting why we dont understand what parkour is...is not going to help. We are trying to explain FreeStyle. Well I was in my last post anyway.
You guys dont have to contiue expressing to us the same things that you have expressed time and again. I was trying to put a new spin on things and have you guys talk about it. The whole idea was to try have you guys acknowledge a stance that can not be denied. A screaming lot of people that believe in FREESTYLE. I know you guys dont like the name. I stated that.
"""""QUOTE FROM SKIPPER...but this isnt a rip on free runners (Hey! thats a nice name! and I heard its looking for a home too!)"""" Now that was down right funny hehehe.
UFF can not just UN-DO things. I never heard an appology of sueding us to the evil side of FREESTYLE. There positions is that they dont have a position, that alone kills me. Well, in my last post I had said my peace. lol literally so peace to you all.
*maybe I shouldn't have even replied...*
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 11:09:34 PM by Matthew Lee Willis »
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Parkour:Phone Calls
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RhayneD
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 10:58:41 PM » |
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I know that I probably have no right to say anything here, but I see gear's point of view.
It's all really simple. It just seems that everyone is caught up on a term. I know for quite a while, I too was stuck on terminology and not the "concept" that I should have been seeking and understanding. Just like society as a whole, we have this need to put concepts, ideals and even people into these nice neat little boxes, when in all actuality that's not always possible.
With that said...
"Definition is not the grand path. It is understanding that is the true destination." -Rhayne G.M.
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"Definition is not the grand path. It is understanding that is the true destination." -RGM.
"Forget blood. Parkour runs through MY veins." -RGM
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2006, 12:06:38 AM » |
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I train/practise/perform parkour but with a dash more freedom of expression through various movements in which I create my style. I think that the term free running is less effective because it totally removes the word parkour and for the most part I do parkour I just happen to add a occasional flip, palmspin, or such. I don't call it feestyle because UFF told me to. I only do that to pacify the hardcore parkour traditionalists, but I do feel that the term freestyle is the best way to describe the sport/art/discipline I practise. How about, you do parkour, and then every now and again you do stuff which isn't parkour. Is it really that hard?! Why is it, as a culture we feel the need to label and brand and categorise everything we do? Is the prospect that you may be doing something outside the box really that scary, your social conditioning so ingrained that it's impossible for you not to have a pigeonhole to put yourself? Are you really that much of a tool of the marketing corporations? What's wrong with saying you move your way? Not urbanfreeflow's way (and you cannot use their term without inferring that you follow them), not the parkour way, but your way. As a quick post script: FreeStyle is obviously a Different Discipline. That is why I am trying to make fact here. So posting why we dont understand what parkour is...is not going to help. We are trying to explain FreeStyle. Well I was in my last post anyway. The iignorance and unwillingness to learn displayed in that post shocks me. In any walk of life, the refusal to learn the truth and the history behind what you're doing is a grave and serious error. If David Belle hadn't invented parkour, you wouldn't be moving like you do know, or on a forum reading about it. If you don't know where you come from, you don't know where you're going to. In a post near the top of the page you bang on about how Urban Freeflow are not taking their responsibilties seriously. Hang on, shouldn't that set alarm bells ringing that perhaps they haven't taken their responsibilities seriously in the past either,l and therefore shouldn't be trusted as creators of a new art? (or perhaps an old art, repackaged and rebranded to appeal to a new generation) Don't try and educate me about freestyle, I understand it's concept in an entirety. It's what most people do when starting out parkour, they concentrate on the moves, how many ways they can get over things, all the different tricks they can learn. The fact remains that neither you nor Deft understand parkour, as demonstrated by your posts complaining about how individual moves aren't parkour and so you do something else. Parkour is what happens when people look beyond the movements to see movement as a whole, in it's entirety, and as what's driving the movements. Read this: http://s14.invisionfree.com/Mag/index.php?showtopic=464The issue traceurs (not purists, not traditionalists, traceurs) have with freestyle parkour is that many of it's practitioners simply do not understand parkour. How can you create a spin off art without first understanding the art that inspires it?! Isn't that just a bastardisation of the original, aren't you just debasing both yourselves and the art? One more thing, I have gone on a bit, just something to think about. not read, pause for a moment and think, yeah, thats nice, and then forget, but actually think about: A speed vault is not parkour. |
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« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 12:43:32 AM by button »
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gearsighted
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2006, 03:29:57 AM » |
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Hehe, I don't have time to continue the discussion (I never really do, I don't know why I keep wasting my time...) but I had to point out two gems:
"your sporty Mcflip showcase"--Skipper (Freakin' awesome...I think that may find it into my sig)
"Definition is not the grand path. It is understanding that is the true destination." -Rhayne G.M. (the best point made yet, thanks!)
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Skipper
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2006, 07:22:28 AM » |
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well i got my laugh, im outta here. zoooooooooomLike gear said, its a waste of time to argue this. im not saying that everyone is correct in their own way, there are people that are wrong, but we have already told you whats right, and its up to you to accept that. if you cant, then you are stubborn and will die the deaths of a thousand Sonny Bonos. Great posts everyone who tried to help, but im sick of this thread, so Im going to lock it for now. maybe ill unlock it someday, but you know, the information is all here, no use adding more clutter to it. |
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« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 07:29:13 AM by Skipper »
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With great power, comes great..... um..... x-ray vision? |
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