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Author Topic: Anti - Competition Thread  (Read 11728 times)
Evocati
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2007, 11:48:13 PM »

Well, I have a degree in Physical Anthropology, so I sort of feel obliged to say something.   Like Faelcind, it's an old passion of mine as well...

Communal living is always competitive.   We may love the idea of the "noble-savage", but it doesn't hold true any more.  Herbert may have been inspired by what he saw in primitive societies, but he took what he wanted and left behind the rest, and "The Natural Method" is at the heart of Parkour.  It was competition for resources that made those tribes what they were, and honed those skills he so admired.

Try telling the zebras not to take it personally when the lions that live in their environment decide it's time to eat.   What is being mistaken is the idea of appropriate use of resources, i.e. balance, harmony, eco-regulation, homeostasis, population density.

The very act of bettering yourself, without reference to someone else, is a self-determined competition.   How many of us were simply sitting on the sofa one day and seeing Belle or Foucan in a video might be enough to spark "I could do that, I bet it would be fun" sort of thoughts.

Evolution is a form of competition.   It is not directed, but based on "best fit", and the idea of Parkour being non-competitive is a little trite.  I'm going out on a limb here, probably will get ex-communicated, but think about this:

David Belle (and others) have said that a practical (perhaps ultimate) use of Parkour is to imagine having to escape or evade someone pursuing you with intent to harm or kill.   Well, I can't imagine very many people willing to say "I hate competition" and simply sitting down and letting the pursuer catch them...

So Belle's statement of no competition might need some revision...

I understand why people fear the concept of competition.  When you find something like Parkour, that allows you to "get out" and away from boredom, it feels good.  When you find others who share your views, who encourage you, and make you feel like you belong, it's great.  We tend to feel that competition is negative, ugly.   I think what really drives the anti-competition fever is the looming threat of commercialization.   

But I've already voiced my opinion on that elsewhere.  Competition,  like commercialization, is neither good or bad.  It's what you do with it.

Stephane Vigroux is a great example of this.  He didn't like what was happening and went his own way.  I admire him.  I think he really shows what a belief in Parkour is all about.

Parkour has achieved a sort of critical mass, it's inevitable.  You can sit and whine about it, or you can lead by example.  You don't own it.  Nobody does.   The very fact  that certain individuals see APK as some sort of competitive response to parkour.net, or UFF, is patently absurd.

I support what M2 is trying to do.  A lot of people are missing the bigger picture because they can't stand back far enough to see it.

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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 05:13:48 AM »

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David Belle (and others) have said that a practical (perhaps ultimate) use of Parkour is to imagine having to escape or evade someone pursuing you with intent to harm or kill.   Well, I can't imagine very many people willing to say "I hate competition" and simply sitting down and letting the pursuer catch them...

So Belle's statement of no competition might need some revision...

I couldn't agree more ... people have said that Parkour evolved out of MN which was a way of training soldiers, or that David's father Raymond Belle practiced the basis (which he passed to David) while he was in Viet Nam with other soldiers ..  ... but then somehow rationalize that "war is not a competition" ?

If Parkour comes from MN or combat training, then I argue that it is inherently competitive.

That being said, that really has nothing to do with my ideas of Parkour in competition in today's world (which, by the way, still nobody has asked me about!)
 
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 05:37:50 AM »

Okay,  I'll bite.   Cool

M2, tell us about your ideas for Parkour in competition in today's world...
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2007, 08:58:31 AM »

I don't think anyone really has a problem with competition as a whole.  It's organized competition that I believe most people have a problem with.  More on this later.
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2007, 02:39:29 PM »

Here is the little essay I wrote on competition in parkour.

"Why I am against competition in parkour
   
One of the most consistent arguments within the parkour community is the argument over whether parkour should become competitive. In my experience most experienced traceurs are against parkour, but can rarely offer a strong argument against competition except that parkour isn’t competitive, or maybe because David Belle has said it should not be competitive which is neither clear nor a powerful argument. Meanwhile, many of the large commercial parkour sites have come out as supporting competition, or at least arguing it is inevitable.

When I first started parkour I did not understand the proscription against competition at all. I am by nature a competitive person I love to wrestle, box and play team sports and I want to win. In fact, as a kid running through the woods I used to fantasize that I was competing in the new Olympic event of obstacle coursing.

However I now look at the possibility of parkour competitions as a negative thing. When Gear wrote his essay on why we should look forward to competition in parkour, I thought he made excellent arguments, but it didn’t sit right with me and I could not agree with the conclusion, however I wasn’t sure exactly how to explain why I was against competition so I did not respond at the time. However I have continued thinking about it and at some point I was able to figure out why I was against competition in parkour.

To me it boils down to understanding the philosophy and background of parkour. Parkour is often connected to two french mottos: the natural method motto etre forte poure etre utile, and the parkour motto etre et durer. The natural method motto means “be strong to be useful.” The parkour motto means something like “to be and to endure.” 

David belle has said that parkour was inspired by fireman and soldiers and he would like it to keep that spirit; that our competition is to see who can help the most people. I believe that the two mottos I quoted are both consistent with the attitude you will find in experienced traceurs that their training is not just to be efficient today, but for tomorrow, the next day, and 30 years down the road. To always be able to be useful and strong. To me this is very important and I think it is unfortunately counter to the reality of professional sports today.
I worry that parkour becoming competitive would be mean, over specialization in traceurs training, and even more injuries and accidents due to competitive pressures.
   
I think before I go into why parkour should not be competitive, it’s important to explore what competition in parkour would probably be like and what conditions are like in similar sports. Some people have thrown rock climbing out as a comparison, saying competition wouldn’t be that bad, few people know about rock climbing competitions, it affects recreational rock climbers very little except in improving the quality of their equipment, and some people get to make money doing what they love. What’s so bad about that? Nothing really. If I thought parkour could go a similar way, I would be a lot less worried about competition. The problem with that analogy as I see it is that rock climbing simply lacks the aesthetic element that parkour brings. How many movies feature gratuitous rock climbing scenes? How many music videos feature rock climbers doing their thing? I think the visual aesthetics of parkour are equal to or better than any of the most popular televised x-game sports, and on par with gymnastics as well.
   
   So, assuming that competition in parkour would be more like the x-games or gymnastics or another minor but well known televised sport, these are the problems I see:   

1.   Parkour is general. Competition by its nature must be specific. I would draw an analogy to martial arts. A complete unarmed self-defense system will teach you striking at range using all your limbs, clinching, striking in the clinch, grappling in the clinch, take downs, grappling on the ground, and striking on the ground. However you will find very few martial arts schools that still teach all of these aspects because most martial arts have become competitive. If you look at the history of competitive martial arts like boxing, you will see how all of these techniques were once part of what was known by practitioners, but gradually they were banned until only something very specific was left, like boxing (striking with the hands), tae kwon do (striking primarily with the feet, with points not power as an emphasis), judo (takedowns), and wu shu (aesthetic displays). Jujitsu was until recently one of the most complete martial arts, but recently submission grappling competitions have become common under the name jujitsu, and you will find more and more schools whose primary focus is success in these competitions. At this point striking is hardly taught in many jujitsu school is hardly, and even take-downs are often barely taught in my experience.

A parkour competition similarly would very likely be a standard length or maybe a few different standard lengths. It would also likely include standard types of obstacles, and very likely standard safety features that you would not find in the real world. Optimal training for competition would mean not focusing on optimal overall training. It would mean over-specialization.

For those who say that competing would not affect their training: perhaps not, but what about the next person to become involved in the discipline, or the person after that? Tell me that most modern judoka are not basing their training for competition and not actually fighting, or tae kwon do athletes, or boxers, or jujitsu fighters. Competitive parkour would no longer be parkour in its truest sense in my opinion, and I think the new competition brand of parkour would likely cannibalize the old style.

2.   Too far, too fast, too high. As Gear mentioned in his thread, competition is great for pushing one to their limits and discovering new levels of performance. I am certain that without competition the development of techniques like the triple back in gymnastics would have taken much longer. But what he ignores is the cost. Professional athletes are often viewed as the epitome of health. I think this is simply counter to fact. There is price to achieving the level of performance seen in professional athletics and it usually involves your health.

Take a look at gymnastics. Last summer I had the chance to chat with Bill Sands, a sports scientist who works with the USA national gymnastics team. He told me that at some point in the last 2 years every member of the men’s senior national team has had reconstructive shoulder surgery, except Jordan Jovtchev who had injured his elbow. His reason as to why this was happening was simple: the maltese cross. In his opinion, this technique was simply beyond the human shoulders design specs, and training it regularly was a guarantee of future injury at this point. However, in order to be competitive in men’s rings you have to do a maltese at the international level, so all the top men’s gymnasts are now getting shoulder injuries. My gymnastics coach, who was an elite level gymnast, has 20 percent disability in both elbows, has had reconstructive surgery on one shoulder and needs it on the other. He blames it on years of having to compete the Yamawaki — which is a double front flips in between the rings.

The average life expectancy of an NFL player is 55, 22 years less then the general average. Elite endurance athletes have enlarged hearts and a higher risk of heart problems .
I am not even going to touch on the issue of performance enhancing drugs which are rampant in professional athletics.

From my perspective it is simple the pressure and money involved in elite professional athletics force an athlete to become over specialized and to take a constant risk with their health that eventually catches up to them. That is not a future I want to see for parkour.

If parkour is about being useful today, tomorrow, and in 20 years, and able to overcome obstacles whenever it is needed, I think that professional competition would be counter to that in the long run.

To those who would say “well it’s inevitable, there’s nothing we can do about it:” That is simply defeatism, we can not know what effect taking steps against competition can have until we try!

Also to those who say “well sure, parkour shouldn’t be completive, but free running competitions are fine:” this to me is hypocritical. Most people will tell you they’re against competition because David Belle said parkour shouldn’t be competitive. Well, if Sebastien Foucan is considered the father of free running and his motto is “no chiefs, no competitions, just a way,” shouldn’t his wishes be respected just like David’s?
Furthermore I think free running has even more aesthetic potential than parkour, and if it does become a popular competitive sport, parkour would basically get swallowed up by it just as easily as by a competive version of parkour.

That’s my thoughts for what their worth I am not completely happy with how I put them down but I hope the make you think."
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2007, 04:55:49 PM »

I've avoided this thread. I knew the opinions were strong.

I'm not anticompetitive. I prefer cooperation - people helping each other improve.

I understand that competition will push some people to try too much, too fast. Parkour is a high impact sport, and even with training, injuries happen. Some are just minor, but as degree of difficulty increases, so will the chance and severity of injuries.

PK/FR is just too beautiful/ visually catching for it to remain totally non-competitive. I think we need to figure out what kind of competition we want, and guide the PK/FR in that direction.

I was in a very high impact version of karate for a couple years. We wore gear, but sparred pretty intensely. It forced us to improve fast, but the price was high. Worse, I found that the mental attitude was carrying over into everyday life. I was being conditioned to strike fast, strike hard when I was threatened. I still find it happening, five years after stopping. My wife will poke me, and I'll 'instinctively' block her hand away as if she were a 200# guy trying to hit me. This is a type of competition I don't want to see PK become. A super-aggressive combat type mentality.

I wrestled and took judo. Competition is pretty high there, too. At least you're training on mats. High school wrestling competition was kinda stupid. They put you in weight classes [which isn't a bad idea in theory.] In practice, it meant you'd have high school kids fasting or sweating several pounds before a meet to make weight.

Randori in judo class was fun - it was supervised, we all knew how to fall, it was safe conditions, and you generally sparred with someone of your same level. You could tap out if something hurt. Sensei was always there, right on the action to monitor everything.

Competitive running. I've got the funny EKGs to show for it, and the lack of flexibility in my hips, knees, ankles and big toes from years of pounding pavement. Most of my running was NOT competitive. 2 of the marathons I ran were because my sisters said, "I'd like to run a marathon. Will you train and run with me?" So I trained with them, at their speed, helping them build up to be able to marathon. Our goal was for them to complete. No time goal, no injuries. I told them that when we started training. During the race, my job was to start them off a little slow [avoid burn out], pace them during the early miles, make sure they got their water, encourage them to keep on going, not stop during the end/ when they hit the wall. We kept a fairly steady pace, slowed down a little as we needed to. We played "Let's see if we can catch up to the next person" a couple times, as a mental/ physical challenge. Looked at the sights. Joked a little. Talked a little. Finished the marathon, together. I could have run over an hour faster, but that wasn't the point. The competition helped because they had organized course, organized water/ electrolyte replacement fluid stations, oranges/energy food stations, toilet, first aid, the course was certified distance. The time was certified time. Police blocked off traffic so we could run without interferance. The course was coned off, there were check points and people monitored the course to make sure no one cheated. We got some cool stuff for finishing, and little photos of us looking half-dead at mile 18, and powering through the finish line, looking triumphant.

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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 06:54:18 PM »

great post Faelcind
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2007, 07:11:48 PM »

M2 i guess you are right but when playing tag with alot of other tracuers you cant really get a read on each others ability because as i said you will eventually tag everybody. Me and my friends went out and tried it and we were not very competative occasionally when on of us was really working hard to get another on and yelled "ha i got ya" but beyond that there wasn't much competition. I think that competitions between friends wouldnt be bad i thing that orgonization would ruin parkour if it actuall because a sport.
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2007, 09:55:27 PM »

LOL I wonder how many people are actually going to read Faelcind's post.  But ya, my exact thoughts can be summed up in his essay.  Well done man.  Very well done.
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2007, 12:15:43 AM »

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LOL I wonder how many people are actually going to read Faelcind's post.

Probably a lot now that I posted it on the front page. But thanks again for your positive and helpful attitude.
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2007, 01:04:49 AM »

Faelcind, Btay, nice work.  I honestly hear you.  I'm on both sides, strange as it seems.

Sorry in advance for the long post.  I’m just not sure what everyone is so twisted about. 

I've got a long history in the martial arts, and I've seen it change in the ways described by the previous posters.  I'm aware also of the damage that is done to athletes bodies as they try to meet the specialization of competition.  I've seen and personally experienced the breakdown in underlying philosophy of a sport or martial art when it goes to competition.

On the other hand, I climb, I mountain bike, I snowboard, I run.   Am I even remotely close to being competitive in those events?  Hardly.   I enjoy them for what they give to me.  I even enjoy watching demonstrations of talent.   But if I was really good, and I could earn a living from it, I might just be tempted, a little bit...

There is already competition.   In order to fund the expansion of Parkour, people have to earn a living at it.   Stephane said so in the excellent U$F Vol. 3 video.  "If you are in business, you have to have something to sell."  If Parkour is your business, you have to eat, right?

UFF, APK, PAPW, anyone that makes videos, competes for movie roles, commercials, advertising, whatever.  They will have to put together things more spectacular to sell the product to the hungry maw of commercialization.

But the majority of us live in and under the auspices of a society where you can choose.   So, given a choice, what do people do with it?

If you don't want to compete, walk away.  Don't spend money on watching competitive events.  Sponsors won't provide the cash if they don't have an audience.  But I'm willing to bet that there is a ready audience for some of this stuff.  How much of that audience will be real traceurs, and how much just those looking for the next trendy thing?

Ultimately I think that competitive Parkour will be a niche market, with little broad appeal.  There will be a flare of interest, and then traceurs can get back to their practice and move on.

A few years ago even yoga got out of control. One yoga instructor even tried to patent Yoga and sued other yoga teachers.  It got thrown out. It settled down a bit.  People found what they needed.   That's the free-market.

My guess is the same thing will happen here.  There will be centers of community and education, like .NET, UFF, APK, where folks who actually care about the discipline can make a living and give something back.  And there will always be those that sit on the sidelines and snipe.

BTW: It’s happening already, on the Colorado board is this post: Comp!?, with this link

http://www.parcouring.com/index.php?id=1&L=2.


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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2007, 01:10:07 AM »

Can someone give me a link to gears article I could not find it going through the front page archives or the forum. Search pulled up nothing, was I mistaken did somebody else write that?
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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2007, 07:18:26 AM »

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LOL I wonder how many people are actually going to read Faelcind's post.

Probably a lot now that I posted it on the front page. But thanks again for your positive and helpful attitude.

Woops sorry Mark.  I really didn't mean to be rude on that one.  Undecided
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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2007, 08:08:44 AM »

OK then, my bad. It seemed to follow suit. Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2007, 12:29:00 PM »

I think allot of people read the forum but not the front page so I want to gears response and my response to it over here(Just a note I think linking to the forum discussion on the mainpage makes more sense then having two separate discussions).

"Good points
Written by gearsighted on 2007-04-24 09:12:40All good points, though I would address a few as such:
 
"However you will find very few martial arts schools that still teach all of these aspects because most martial arts have become competitive"
 
Actually, more and more martial arts schools are teaching mixed skills, as the most popular competition in the world is mixed martial arts. Competition actually created the avenue to make these martial arts LESS specific!
 
I don't think obstacles in a competitive format need to be exactly the same from one comp. to the next...in skateboarding comps they change for every event and they test a variety of skills used in skateboarding...a Parkour comp. would be much the same, testing Parkour SKILLS rather than Parkour itself.
 
"From my perspective it is simple the pressure and money involved in elite professional athletics force an athlete to become over specialized and to take a constant risk with their health that eventually catches up to them. That is not a future I want to see for parkour."
 
Take a look at Blane's "Dilution." I think he sees it as well as you or I do that this is already the case. Kids are competing to be the best right off the bat. I think there's actually a possibility that standardizing a competitive format along with showing incremental training and allowing there to be a professional slant to both of these aspects might better educate new traceurs in comparison to the random and scattered internet information that may or may not be correct and could possibly be dangerous. In order to attract talented trainers and intelligent designers to help push the art in the right direction, a competitive format needs to be in place to make it viable."


My response

"Written by Faelcind on 2007-04-24 12:08:25

Just wanted to address a couple of your points gear. 
 
On the martial arts it is true that more skills are teaching a wider range of skills, these skills are still competition oriented, how many mix martial arts schools practice in street clothes, with shoes on, fighting multiple opponents etc. The rules of the game have changed but people are still primarily training for a game.
 
Blanes dilution was one of my inspirations for actually writing this down, I don't see how looking at the reality of professional athletics today you could expect anything but a worsening of current trend if professional competitions come to fruition. 
 
A also completely disagree that competition is necessary to make parkour viable. I think it is already clearly viable, and I think the existence of disciplines like yoga, tai chi etc prove that movement disciplines do not need competition to be viable. I think competition would clearly push parkour in the wrong direction. I think what we need are organizations like our PNWPA up here hopefully DB production in france etc to increase safety understanding and awareness."
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