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Shae Perkins
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« on: November 11, 2009, 01:58:02 PM » |
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With the exception of Forrest, how come most of Parkour Generations is relatively lean? Don't get me wrong, they're quite powerful and resilient. But I just figured with as much emphasis as they put on conditioning, I would figure they'd be a bit heftier. Thoughts?
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Grayson
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 03:32:02 PM » |
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The way they train is more endurance focused and bodyweight training. The reason you see people get big is because they eat big and lift heavy and PKGEN doesn't lift very much and keep their reps high.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 03:35:50 PM by Grayson »
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I train Freekour.
"Baby mammals drink milk, and you sir, are a baby mammal."
"And folks, for weight-gaining purposes, "eating clean" is not a useful concept. Big Macs are."
-Mark Ripptoe
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Jake Mathew
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 03:37:11 PM » |
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They aren't looking for mass. Conditioning =/= mass. They are lean because they are so cut. Their bodyfat percentages are rediculously low. Also, from what i can tell a majority of their workouts are with cardio and calisthenics which do not build much muscle mass. If you want to get big you must lift heavy/hard and have a pretty large calorie intake.
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Daniel Kelley
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2009, 06:45:07 PM » |
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When you think about it, lighter is better.
Move and accelerate faster, less force, etc.
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Strong body, strong mind, strong spirit.
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Mathew C
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 08:24:20 PM » |
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Chimpanzees (quite efficient athletes) are built similarly. They are typically about 4'10", very small in terms of volume... but practically, they are incredibly strong and weight 150-175 lbs. Some people, myself included, are built the same way. I've often found that, compared to peers who are my height and size (volume, not mass), I am remarkably strong and heavy. In fact, assuming he's about 5'10", I would wager that Forrest is somewhere between 180 and 200 lbs.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 09:45:32 PM » |
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With the exception of Forrest, how come most of Parkour Generations is relatively lean? Don't get me wrong, they're quite powerful and resilient. But I just figured with as much emphasis as they put on conditioning, I would figure they'd be a bit heftier. Thoughts?
PK Gen does not strength train AFAIK -- they train for endurance. Compare the Bar-Barians to PKGen and you will see a huge difference. The Bar-Barians focus on constantly getting stronger even with bodyweight only skills. Look at livewire vs. PKGen and you will see that Livewire is more "built" than most of PK gen because he does a ton of strength work for his upper body such as handstands, flags and general strength training. If you want to get bigger you need to eat and train for it and PK Gen just doesn't do that. Hopping on 1 foot for an hour does not make you bigger (nor does it make you better, really.)
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Grayson
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 09:54:35 PM » |
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When you think about it, lighter is better.
Move and accelerate faster, less force, etc.
Not necessarily, how fast you accelerate and move, how high you jump, etc. is dependent on how strong your posterior chain and quads are. There are heavy powerlifters out there that do 42" box jumps for a warmup. Of course for Parkour you want to be light as not to take heavy impact on joints though.
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I train Freekour.
"Baby mammals drink milk, and you sir, are a baby mammal."
"And folks, for weight-gaining purposes, "eating clean" is not a useful concept. Big Macs are."
-Mark Ripptoe
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Brett Robert
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 01:27:23 AM » |
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Chimpanzees (quite efficient athletes) are built similarly. They are typically about 4'10", very small in terms of volume... but practically, they are incredibly strong and weight 150-175 lbs. Some people, myself included, are built the same way. I've often found that, compared to peers who are my height and size (volume, not mass), I am remarkably strong and heavy. In fact, assuming he's about 5'10", I would wager that Forrest is somewhere between 180 and 200 lbs.
I'm unclear whether you're saying chimps are gracile ("slender and graceful") or robust (big, "bulky" musculature), but I've seen some pretty robust wild male chimpanzees. The dominant males tend to be pretty bulky. Before taking anthropology my image of chimps was that of the typical female, but after seeing a few documentaries I realized there's quite a bit of variation within the species.
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Shae Perkins
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2009, 06:06:18 AM » |
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Interesting. I assumed it was because of the way they conditioned. I used to strength train that way, haha didn't really get me anywhere aside getting good at doing stupid movements for a long time
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This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 06:48:51 AM » |
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Interesting. I assumed it was because of the way they conditioned. I used to strength endurance train that way, haha didn't really get me anywhere aside getting good at doing stupid movements for a long time
There, Shae, I fixed that for you. If you want to be strong, then train like STRONG people. Bar-barians, Steve Low, Jim Bathurst, Gymnasts, Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, Traditional Strongmen. The guys at PK Gen aren't what I would consider strong - though they are very good traceurs. Much of parkour is skill/coordination work so that explains a lot. David Belle, for example, does a lot more strength work than PK Gen as far as I am aware. DB can do thumb pushups - you don't get those by doing little circles at the bottom of your pushups for 4 hours a day or running a marathon's worth of running while mixing in some skill work like PK Gen trains.
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 06:54:58 AM by Chris Salvato »
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Matthew W
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 08:33:43 PM » |
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There, Shae, I fixed that for you. If you want to be strong, then train like STRONG people. Bar-barians, Steve Low, Jim Bathurst, Gymnasts, Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, Traditional Strongmen. The guys at PK Gen aren't what I would consider strong - though they are very good traceurs. Much of parkour is skill/coordination work so that explains a lot. David Belle, for example, does a lot more strength work than PK Gen as far as I am aware. DB can do thumb pushups - you don't get those by doing little circles at the bottom of your pushups for 4 hours a day or running a marathon's worth of running while mixing in some skill work like PK Gen trains. Just want to point out that you guys are kind of making it seem like edurance conditioning for 4 hours a day is taboo. For those reading, it's not bad at all. It just doesn't help with any strength gains. If you're looking to go above and beyond with gymnastic holds and 2.5x bodyweight squats, then endurance conditioning will not help you at all. But honestly parkour doesn't need that elite gymnastics strength, just need to be able to really carry your own weight. Which is exactly what PKGen can do.
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Patrick Yang
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 09:10:06 PM » |
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Just want to point out that you guys are kind of making it seem like edurance conditioning for 4 hours a day is taboo. For those reading, it's not bad at all. It just doesn't help with any strength gains. If you're looking to go above and beyond with gymnastic holds and 2.5x bodyweight squats, then endurance conditioning will not help you at all. But honestly parkour doesn't need that elite gymnastics strength, just need to be able to really carry your own weight. Which is exactly what PKGen can do.
Agreed 100%. PK Gen is called on to teach parkour for several hours a day, several days a week, on top of other projects, many of which are parkour-related. It's quite understandable that they train for endurance to withstand that kind of constant punishment. They can definitely move their bodies and what gear they carry on them, so why not bias their training toward endurance? To look at it from the other direction, having greater endurance allows them to be involved in more parkour-related projects, and therefore do more for the parkour community. Seems like a good idea to me.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 10:03:51 PM » |
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Just want to point out that you guys are kind of making it seem like edurance conditioning for 4 hours a day is taboo. For those reading, it's not bad at all. It just doesn't help with any strength gains. If you're looking to go above and beyond with gymnastic holds and 2.5x bodyweight squats, then endurance conditioning will not help you at all. But honestly parkour doesn't need that elite gymnastics strength, just need to be able to really carry your own weight. Which is exactly what PKGen can do.
What I am more concerned about is people being left with the impression that doing 200 pushups in a single set somehow means that you are strong - or that doing 500 one legged hops is somehow helping your jumping ability. There is nothing wrong with endurance training but the training they are doing is just not something with which i agree. I think its silly to say that they don't need that gymnastics level of strength. IMHO, everyone should have that level of strength.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2009, 10:11:19 PM » |
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One other thing that I would like to add is that this question was brought up regarding their musculature. If you are interested in musculature at all then any sort of extremely high volume of movement is not going to put you closer to being more muscular.
Strength training does make you bigger and supplementing that with hypertrophy training makes you biggest. Thats 3-5 RMs for strength and 8-12 RMs for hypertrophy. PK Gen is doing things in the hundreds and thousands of RM range. That is nowhere near either strength or hypertrophy.
Really, I don't care how you train. The fact that a marathon runner trains endurance and I train strength is meaningless when you consider how many people are training vs. sitting on the couch. Me and the marathoner are pretty damn similar in that regard and I respect anyone who trains for any reason towards any goal so long as they do it seriously and with conviction.
With that said, I get really annoyed when I opt out of PKGen style workouts because I view them as a waste of time and people seem to think this means I am being a bitch or I am not cut out for the workouts. Additionally, many people who think that these PKGen style workouts are good ALSO think that they make you strong. Both of these assertions (the former implications about me and the latter about the results of these workouts) are entirely false but after the 100th time it happens it gets really annoying....
Maybe I'm just on a soapbox, now.
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 10:13:34 PM by Chris Salvato »
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2009, 10:20:21 PM » |
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One more thing: what PKGen does, for the most part, is inefficient endurance training, anyway. You will never see someone at an elite level of any other sport do anything that even remotely resembles 5 minutes of one legged hops in place or 100 pushups to plank with arm circles at the bottom. PKGen makes the incorrect assumption that "if it hurts, it must be working" and its devastating for me to see them let other traceurs fall into that trap.
If doing workouts like that worked, why don't you see marathon runners or elite ironmen (endurance sport, btw) performers doing crazy amounts of arm circles or dive bombers? Is this some secret that PKGen stumbled upon? No. They just don't do anything towards making you a better athlete.
IMHO, the people of PKGen could be stronger and have more endurance/stamina while putting in much less work. Their pain tolerance is probably much higher than anyone else in the world, though - and they are still fantastic traceurs.
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Jake Vigil
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 12:12:50 AM » |
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Chris... TripplepostedPwnage.
Agreed, 100%. You would think that of all people, PKGen as traceurs would value efficiency, especially in their workouts. It's a shame to see them propagating the same sort of nonsense as seems to be displayed at fitness clubs all across... everywhere probably.
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TaylorPK
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 03:02:55 AM » |
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If you're looking to go above and beyond with gymnastic holds and 2.5x bodyweight squats, then endurance conditioning will not help you at all.
That's not entirely true http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/articles/training-articles/59-gpp-considerations-for-strength-sportsAs an aside, there is a myth in strength sports (powerlifting in particular) that says any sort of “cardio” is muscle-wasting and catabolic in nature. So people don’t do it for fear that they are losing muscle mass. This not only is a myth, but it may even be the opposite of reality. First the part that is true: “cardio” work is catabolic in nature. In fact, all exercise is catabolic in nature. If you’ve ever heard of “overtraining” then this should not be a new concept to you. There is nothing special about cardiovascular-focused exercise that makes it catabolic. The irony is that in avoiding cardiovascular fitness and strengthening the heart, many people may be preventing gains in muscle mass. Why? Under normal conditions, muscles consume oxygen. In hypoxic conditions (conditions where oxygen is limited), muscle mass is catabolized by the body. Here’s the kicker -- by neglecting cardio-respiratory fitness, your body has a reduced ability to process oxygen. Recall the mechanism discussed earlier – if the body continues to produce muscle mass, it may not have the ability to keep it well supplied with oxygen, so it will inhibit that process. This can be seen in people living at high altitudes. By improving your long-neglected cardiovascular fitness levels, you may even see a sudden gain in muscle mass.
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Patrick Yang
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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 03:32:00 AM » |
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Again I must thank you, Chris, as you've made me actually scrutinize some things I took for granted and change my opinion on some PK Gen exercises. However, I must still disagree with you on your assertion that their training is useless and ineffective as endurance training
I think you're fixating on only one aspect of their training. I agree that many of their exercises such as those circle push ups are not likely to give any translation to actual parkour movement. However, there is plenty of stuff that seems fine. The majority of what I've seen of their trainings has been a large volume of skill and coordination work with constant, low-level exercise in between. I don't understand why this would be particularly "bad", if one does not tout that it will make you strong.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 06:18:37 AM » |
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That link and quote do not back up your assertion. Your assertion was that endurance conditioning helps your level of strength and that quote says it helps your muscle mass. Muscle mass is not equal to strength. Muscle mass is increased size in muscle. GPP is also a LOT different than traditional cardio. Traditional cardio is generally defined as LSD or "Long Slow Distance" and GPP usually constitutes just SOME LSD work with a shitload of high speed, short duration, grueling non-stop work. The difference is the intensity level but a lot of people who are new or like to confuse new people use the term cardio to cover the broad range on these things. In short, you didn't prove anything here. GPP has the potential to increase muscle mass because of the high intensity stress -- traditional "cardio" (that is, LSD without any intended improvement to previous times) is still useless, for the most part. Not trying to be a dick, just I don't think you understand what you posted here and it has a very very high probability of confusing a LOT of other people - especially those who think that what you said is true because they don't understand how to read articles like that. However, there is plenty of stuff that seems fine. The majority of what I've seen of their trainings has been a large volume of skill and coordination work with constant, low-level exercise in between. I don't understand why this would be particularly "bad", if one does not tout that it will make you strong.
Large volumes of low intensity skill/conditioning work is very very different from low intensity conditioning work. A warmup does not need to be 45 minutes of one arm circles, lateral arm holds, very slow pushups and little circles at the bottoms of your pushups. However, when you move into their skill/coordination work - a very high volume of QM, short distance vaults, balance work, shimmies, etc. is low intensity (except maybe the shimmies, but you get used to that over time and it becomes low intensity as you get stronger) practice. With that said, their skill/conditioning work is just that - skill work. Anyone who practices their sport will get better at it so this is a no brainer. In fact, I said this above in one of my posts, but maybe I should have said it more explicitly: The guys at PK Gen aren't what I would consider strong - though they are very good traceurs. Much of parkour is skill/coordination work so that explains a lot.
The point is that, yes, promoting parkour skill work is great - but I don't really think that is necessary. Anyone who trains parkour does skill work just by training parkour. Anyone who is dedicated or even just extremely interested will naturally do a high volume of skill work because they love the sport. To promote parkour as a "serious discipline" PKGen holds extremely long, grueling, painful warmups that have no translation to parkour at all, really. Its more about how many people they can make bow out of their ridiculously painful and nonsensical warmup program to show people how "hard" "parkour" can be -- either that or they really think they have some kind of performance enhancing value in those warmups, which is even more scary, imho.
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« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 07:07:45 AM by Chris Salvato »
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TaylorPK
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2009, 02:57:54 PM » |
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?? I don't understand your point here, Chris. I don't think you understood my post? Having a strong Cardiorespiratory/pulmonary system will only aid in your lifting abilities due to the increased strength of the heart, as well as the capacity of the lungs. With more cardiovascular endurance, you are more able to supply the muscles with what they need during exercise.
Couple benefits to Aerobic training: 1. Decrease Heart Rate at any submaximal effort, including rest. (Heart Rate: The number of times the heart beats per minute [bpm]) 2. Increased Stroke Volume at rest, and at all intensities. (Stroke Volume: the amount of blood pumped from each ventricle each time the heart beats) 3. Increased maximum cardiac output (The amount of the blood that flows from each ventricle in one minute) 4. Increased capillary density 5. Increased number of mitochondria 6. Increased activity of mitochondrial (aerobic) enzymes
Capillaries: very narrow, thin-walled vessels across which the exchange of gases, nutrients, and cellular waste products occurs between the blood and the cells of the body.
Mitochondria: The site of aerobic energy(ATP) production. The greater number of mitochondria in a cell, the greater the aerobic energy production capabilities of that cell. --------------------------------- ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) "The Energy Cell": Where the energy used to exert force and contract muscle fibers primarily comes from. Muscle cells must produce more ATP to continue working, because only a limited amount is stored, therefore muscle cells must produce more ATP. The ATP supply is replenished using three distinct biochemical pathways, or separate series of chemical reactions: the aerobic system, anaerobic glycolysis, and the creatine phosphate system.
The aerobic(with oxygen) system produces more ATP than the anaerobic(without oxygen) systems.
The primary source of of anaerobic ATP production is glucose, which is carried in the blood and is also stored in the muscles and the liver and glycogen (A large molecule made up of chains of glucose). A second source of anaerobic ATP production is Creatine Phosphate, a molecule that can be quickly broken apart to help produce ATP. There is an extremely limited supply of creatine phosphate. The muscles store only enough creatine phosphate and ATP, together referred to as Phosphagens, to last for about 10 seconds of maximal effort.
As long as a muscle cell is aerobic, it uses both fatty acids and glucose to produce ATP. The aerobic system produces more ATP than the anaerobic systems, primarily because fat yields 9 calories of energy per gram, while carbohydrate (glucose) and protein yield only 4 calories of energy per gram. The end products of aerobic ATP production are water and carbon dioxide, both of which are relatively easy for the body to deal with, so that aerobic energy production does not lead to fatigue. When an exercising muscle becomes anaerobic, it relies on glucose (and to a limited extent the phosphagen system) to produce ATP. Not only is much less ATP produced, anaerobically than aerobically per molecule of substrate used, the byproducts of anaerobic ATP production include lactic acid, heat, and hydrogen ions. As the level of lactic acid and other by-products increases in the muscle, continued contraction of that muscle is soon inhibited. Lactic acid is thought to be the principal cause of the immediate soreness (the "burn") in an exercising muscle.
In addition to lactic acid build-up, the muscles give other signals when they can no longer produce enough ATP aerobically. One is hyperventilation, defined as "breathing faster than is necessary at a given pace", an indication that anaerobic ATP production is predominating. When inadequate oxygen is available, the muscle signals the brain to increase the rate and depth of breathing. The limiting factor is not usually the ability to increase the rate and depth of the breathing. It is primarily the ability to extract and use oxygen at the muscle, therefore hyperventilation is an almost useless process. ---------------------------------
One change in response to aerobic training is that new capillaries are produced in the active skeletal muscles, increasing the area for the exchange of oxygen. In response to aerobic training is a significant increase in the mitochondrial density, which means more of the muscle cell is occupied by mitochondria.
The increased aerobic enzyme capacity allows for a greater use of oxygen; thus, exercising at greater intensities can still be accomplished "aerobically".
The increased maximum cardiac output combined with the increased extraction capability yields not only a greater maximum aerobic capacity, but also an elevated anaerobic threshold.
Anaerobic Threshold: The intensity at which adequate oxygen is unavailable. Corresponds to the upper limit of sustainable aerobic exercise and it generally occurs in the range of 50 to 85% of maximum effort.
As long as enough oxygen can be delivered into the mitochondria to meet this increased energy need, ATP production will proceed primarily through the aerobic system.
Now yes, Lifting weights is primarily Anaerobic, but I would think it be foolish to classify cardiovascular training as useless when the benefits of aerobic training are clear. (Also note the previous statement)
I would only think it a benefit to increase your aerobic abilities through cardiovascular endurance training and increasing the strength and efficiency of the cardiorespiratory/pulmonary system.
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