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Alec Furtado
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 09:06:43 PM » |
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My thoughts as well. Beautifully delivered. I'll definitely be making this a required read for my group.
This strengthens the idea even more that parkour is not just and activity or a philosophy, it's a lifestyle, a culture. At first, I started jumping off crap since that's what I saw everybody doing but I soon discovered through careful thought and listening to others that parkour was much more than that. I think it is important for everyone to go through these stages of development. Yes, it is bad to take those drops without proper preparation but I think it is more important to go your own route and discover for yourself what parkour truly is. I remember from one of the videos of the Yamakasi where on of the men says some thing like, "I will not tell you what parkour is, what it is that I do. I know what I do. You must tell me what you do." It almost reminds me of those martial arts or whatever where you need to go live in the mountains for three years reflecting to truly understand it.
Parkour is ridiculous and I love it.
p.s. what's that word for something you can't put into words? It is just cannot be expressed with words... they just cannot do the thing justice.
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Conway {Refuze}
Patas
 
Karma: +18/-15
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Movement speaks for itself.
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 09:08:46 PM » |
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I don't find anything new in there for me, meaning things I have felt about parkour.
People shouldn't compare themselves to others. I thought all tracuers knew and understood this. This is the way of parkour, to not compete and to not compare. I didn't know this was such a big problem.
Regardless, he is quite right of the "by the book" notion he was talking about. I have been practicing for 2 years, known of parkour for 3, and my friend always tells me that I do my movements "weird" as if it's my own little twist. He says I need to read more.
A. I realized immediately he was not a tracuer, not full in spirit, body, mind....not yet. Why?
B. Weird....compared to who? Clearly comparison was/is in him.
C. Read more. That affirms Blanes saying others have more info. these days. That's not exactly a good thing.
D. I was training for years without ever knowing about the APK site. I didn't know Parkour was popular enough to have a site. I learned parkour by watching the vids on the internet, and because there were so many different styles and people training parkour, my style was a combination of everyone I saw on the internet. Hundreds interpreted into my own personal style.
E. Merely by saying to read more, that implied I needed to correct something, as if my way was wrong.
It really irks me, actually I find it quite disgusting and ignorant, when he tells me to read more becuase my movement is weird. I move my way, we all do. This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
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Alec Furtado
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 09:14:27 PM » |
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This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
I kinda like that... haha. The next step, however, is how can we come in and help those find the true essence of parkour? It doesn't really seem like something you can just bring upon somebody. Again, they must find it themselves and I have the feeling that telling them their concept is skewed will not be met with too much enthusiasm. Idk.
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Charles Moreland
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 11:18:32 PM » |
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I don't find anything new in there for me, meaning things I have felt about parkour.
People shouldn't compare themselves to others. I thought all tracuers knew and understood this. This is the way of parkour, to not compete and to not compare. I didn't know this was such a big problem.
Regardless, he is quite right of the "by the book" notion he was talking about. I have been practicing for 2 years, known of parkour for 3, and my friend always tells me that I do my movements "weird" as if it's my own little twist. He says I need to read more.
A. I realized immediately he was not a tracuer, not full in spirit, body, mind....not yet. Why?
B. Weird....compared to who? Clearly comparison was/is in him.
C. Read more. That affirms Blanes saying others have more info. these days. That's not exactly a good thing.
D. I was training for years without ever knowing about the APK site. I didn't know Parkour was popular enough to have a site. I learned parkour by watching the vids on the internet, and because there were so many different styles and people training parkour, my style was a combination of everyone I saw on the internet. Hundreds interpreted into my own personal style.
E. Merely by saying to read more, that implied I needed to correct something, as if my way was wrong.
It really irks me, actually I find it quite disgusting and ignorant, when he tells me to read more becuase my movement is weird. I move my way, we all do. This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
Sometimes this is the way. But to play a little devil's advocate, personal flair in parkour is very similar to personal flair in my major course study, Fine Art. If I were to make a parallel between your argument and fine art, then it would say that those who study art history and still produce art are not truly artists. Now we know that this is not the case and almost any worthwhile arts institution will require you to study some form of art history. These aren't the best examples, but they're both contemporaries. Here's Richard MacDonald: http://www.richardmacdonald.com/ On his about me you can see he underwent a very traditional learning process. This is a bust from John B. Andelin:  He's self taught. Now is Richard MacDonald not an artist because he was required to read, study, and likely (from my own personal experience) asked to replicate some of the great masters works? So we come to a crossroads. Is it necessary for you to read more to become a more accomplished traceur? I'd suggest probably not. But when you consider that it can only help, then you have to ask whether or not you're mitigating your progression by refusing to read. Am I not an artist because I too have taken a fascination with gymnastics and reproduce it in my sculpture such as Richard MacDonald did? I'd sure hope not. We also come to another issue. Is your friend truly not a traceur? Or is he simply not a traceur in your eyes? We find yet another parallel to the artistic world; where everyone's own interpretations about what art "is" defines how they view the professionalism of different artists. They may jump at the chance to label the great Michelangelo as one of the defining artists of all time, based on personal preference. And with that same preference, scowl at Duchamp's "fountain" for being completely absurd. While knowledge about art can be defined formally and be achieved through a master's degree, it still remains something that most everyone defines for themselves, regardless of proper training or study. Parkour is an art, therefore giving it essence. In parkour, almost every traceur trains and practices the kong. But there are many ways a kong can be done and although I could ask Tyson and Jereme to demonstrate a kong, both demonstrations would be slightly different. Is this because Jereme and Tyson holed themselves up from the internet? Nope. Quite the opposite I believe. So both kongs were performed differently, yet both were kongs, and both were considered an act of parkour. So are your movements weird? Perhaps. I haven't seen them. The point is you don't have to be so hostile or peeved at the notion of your friend not agreeing with your personal style, because it's still parkour (art) and to like minded people, still makes you a traceur (artist). Is Duchamp's fountain art? Absolutely. But does it make you feel guilty or make you feel strange to be viewing something so mundane and ordinary in a professional and highly respectable gallery? Absolutely. In my eyes as an artist this doesn't mean he is not an artist, however to some other artists, it does. Does this mean those who disagree with me are not artists? Nope. The interpretation and the way people personally define that which is abstract is necessary to understand. Otherwise mentalities such as the quoted form and potential friendships could be ruined. I have many close friends who truly don't enjoy some of my art. This is okay due to an understanding that there is a difference in definition of what art is to every single person.
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 11:21:15 PM by Charles Moreland »
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Anthony >Aladdin< Trnka
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 12:46:02 AM » |
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NoRush, Parkour is defined by the Traceur, and the Traceur is defined by the person being called it. I think it's all too easy we forget what charles is saying that Parkour is art, and: there is a difference in definition of what art is to every single person. Nobody is wrong nobody is right. This discussion is great but there is no reason, and no basis for any sort of True vs. UnTrue Traceur. I myself am a very "left brained" person, Numbers, facts, figures, thats me. i'll read an artical on a new technique a thousand times before I try it, because thats how I learn, absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying individuality is lost on me, I just learn more from the mental side of the spectrum. I do through my own twists on moves and I am always trying new things however again the more information i can get from people or the internet the more i prosper. You on the other hand seem like the complete opposite, you thrive on the phyical aspect.Bydoing this you create aworld of oppertunities for your own personal style, this however is again Your way of learning as predifined by your own being. Maybe your friend  is commenting on your uniqueness out of admiration of it and simply tells you to read more because there is always more to learn and he wants to see you push your abilities as far as they can go. All in All we lose the meaning of the phrase parkour is a PERSONAL journey by saying it only applies to training.
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Aladdin
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Conway {Refuze}
Patas
 
Karma: +18/-15
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Movement speaks for itself.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 08:03:12 AM » |
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I don't find anything new in there for me, meaning things I have felt about parkour.
People shouldn't compare themselves to others. I thought all tracuers knew and understood this. This is the way of parkour, to not compete and to not compare. I didn't know this was such a big problem.
Regardless, he is quite right of the "by the book" notion he was talking about. I have been practicing for 2 years, known of parkour for 3, and my friend always tells me that I do my movements "weird" as if it's my own little twist. He says I need to read more.
A. I realized immediately he was not a tracuer, not full in spirit, body, mind....not yet. Why?
B. Weird....compared to who? Clearly comparison was/is in him.
C. Read more. That affirms Blanes saying others have more info. these days. That's not exactly a good thing.
D. I was training for years without ever knowing about the APK site. I didn't know Parkour was popular enough to have a site. I learned parkour by watching the vids on the internet, and because there were so many different styles and people training parkour, my style was a combination of everyone I saw on the internet. Hundreds interpreted into my own personal style.
E. Merely by saying to read more, that implied I needed to correct something, as if my way was wrong.
It really irks me, actually I find it quite disgusting and ignorant, when he tells me to read more becuase my movement is weird. I move my way, we all do. This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
Sometimes this is the way. But to play a little devil's advocate, personal flair in parkour is very similar to personal flair in my major course study, Fine Art. If I were to make a parallel between your argument and fine art, then it would say that those who study art history and still produce art are not truly artists. Now we know that this is not the case and almost any worthwhile arts institution will require you to study some form of art history. These aren't the best examples, but they're both contemporaries. Here's Richard MacDonald: http://www.richardmacdonald.com/ On his about me you can see he underwent a very traditional learning process. This is a bust from John B. Andelin:  He's self taught. Now is Richard MacDonald not an artist because he was required to read, study, and likely (from my own personal experience) asked to replicate some of the great masters works? So we come to a crossroads. Is it necessary for you to read more to become a more accomplished traceur? I'd suggest probably not. But when you consider that it can only help, then you have to ask whether or not you're mitigating your progression by refusing to read. Am I not an artist because I too have taken a fascination with gymnastics and reproduce it in my sculpture such as Richard MacDonald did? I'd sure hope not. We also come to another issue. Is your friend truly not a traceur? Or is he simply not a traceur in your eyes? We find yet another parallel to the artistic world; where everyone's own interpretations about what art "is" defines how they view the professionalism of different artists. They may jump at the chance to label the great Michelangelo as one of the defining artists of all time, based on personal preference. And with that same preference, scowl at Duchamp's "fountain" for being completely absurd. While knowledge about art can be defined formally and be achieved through a master's degree, it still remains something that most everyone defines for themselves, regardless of proper training or study. Parkour is an art, therefore giving it essence. In parkour, almost every traceur trains and practices the kong. But there are many ways a kong can be done and although I could ask Tyson and Jereme to demonstrate a kong, both demonstrations would be slightly different. Is this because Jereme and Tyson holed themselves up from the internet? Nope. Quite the opposite I believe. So both kongs were performed differently, yet both were kongs, and both were considered an act of parkour. So are your movements weird? Perhaps. I haven't seen them. The point is you don't have to be so hostile or peeved at the notion of your friend not agreeing with your personal style, because it's still parkour (art) and to like minded people, still makes you a traceur (artist). Is Duchamp's fountain art? Absolutely. But does it make you feel guilty or make you feel strange to be viewing something so mundane and ordinary in a professional and highly respectable gallery? Absolutely. In my eyes as an artist this doesn't mean he is not an artist, however to some other artists, it does. Does this mean those who disagree with me are not artists? Nope. The interpretation and the way people personally define that which is abstract is necessary to understand. Otherwise mentalities such as the quoted form and potential friendships could be ruined. I have many close friends who truly don't enjoy some of my art. This is okay due to an understanding that there is a difference in definition of what art is to every single person. Charles MorelandHmmm....I am not hostile at my friend, no, and my comment about what he said was aimed at the comment, not him. I think I didn't word myself properly here. I meant: would someone else appreciate it if I told them they are doing something wrong. Then again....that comment never said anything about me being "wrong", and implication is just that, not fact. I was agreeing on the point that reading is a good thing to a point, and not reading is a good thing to a point. I don't think that every word should be soaked in as dogma. Rather, let the tracuer say "hey, whats he talking about?" then go and do it the same way AND another in order to find his personal desire. EX: I showed Ozzi how I was trying to learn the sit-turn, and after I had leanred it he watched a little vid of me, and told me it was easier to have my palm facing down when grabbing the bar, not up like i was doing. I thought to myself "Whoa, I didn't even realize that I was doing that in the 1st place" I went out and tried the sit turn but grabbing the bar differently. It worked as well. Now it's not too hard to do a sit-turn just by changing your hand direction, but this advice he gave me def. helped, however I continue to keep my palm up (grabbing the bar from below) just because it seems more natural. Theres nothing wrong with advice but I feel that when new tracuers are taking the advice, and not letting themselves discover their own method through their own personality, then rdeading becomes a neg. thing. No one  And no its not necessary to read more to be an accomplished tracuer. when you take vigroux and belle and the originals, they didnt have anything to refer to except eachother. Reading is a way to refer to the global community through reading and writing. But theres too much dependancy on reading, as in blanes article, i feel this is supported by: new tracuers do movements that more experienced ones cant, but they get injured and damaged faster as well. I'm assuming that because those new tracuers had material to refer to, such as tuts, they say ok i see how and go and do the biggest without starting from the beginnnig. Where as the more experienced tracuers might not have had those tuts, and even if they did, started small small small and slow. Which is the the way to go no doubt, if you feel like practicing movement for years to come. AladdinI'm not sure I understand the left-brained/right-brained stuff there  I do see the difference in approach how you are describing, reading or just going out and trying it. If you do read an article a 1000 times, thats great! But I am saying: don't let it trap you in a cement box. Just because it says to do something, even if its "proper" you should still leave it and try your own way, and the compare yourself to yourself.  That's the key. Read read read read read....but then leave it and try the same thing in a new manner/fashion/style and see what you like best. Not that you personally do that, im saying as new tracuers get more info. i hope they realize how personal a discipline this really is.
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Anthony >Aladdin< Trnka
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 12:14:55 PM » |
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NoRush,
Let me explain, under Parkour under the title traceur we are people, and fundimentally people learn differently. Example: I read, I do, and then I adapt the move to myself Example: You do, you adapt, and then you read Thats it, that's the only difference.
Rant,
I Understand the arguement that letting yourself be confined to the "right way" breeds Unimaginative Traceurs. I respect blane but I do not agree with some of his statements. First it seems to me to be, weather we want to admit it or not, jealousy. Listen I have been in sports my whole life and martial arts for half of it, there will always be someone more physically gifted than you. Now big drops aside if someone can do something bigger or better than you they should by cheered not scrutinized for how long it took them to do it wether it be a long or short time.
If someone can do a giant cat to cat and i cannot does that mean i'm not training right or that they are jumping into things there not ready for? No, again aside from drops it is my experience that if you can do something then your body is ready for it, because if you can do that giant cat to cat then you obviously have the right technique. No amount of reading can make me do the cat, no amount of will or training, if i do not have the right technique. So simply by being able to do something then you have the right to do it.
Okay I understand this is a very hard consept to grasp and i also understand that we have all been programed to think our bodies need thousands of hours of training to do certain things and it's true but, everyone starts at different points and everyone advances at different rates. and this is all dependant upon Physical ability.
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Aladdin
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chodantraceur
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 05:53:37 PM » |
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I don't find anything new in there for me, meaning things I have felt about parkour.
People shouldn't compare themselves to others. I thought all tracuers knew and understood this. This is the way of parkour, to not compete and to not compare. I didn't know this was such a big problem.
Regardless, he is quite right of the "by the book" notion he was talking about. I have been practicing for 2 years, known of parkour for 3, and my friend always tells me that I do my movements "weird" as if it's my own little twist. He says I need to read more.
A. I realized immediately he was not a tracuer, not full in spirit, body, mind....not yet. Why?
B. Weird....compared to who? Clearly comparison was/is in him.
C. Read more. That affirms Blanes saying others have more info. these days. That's not exactly a good thing.
D. I was training for years without ever knowing about the APK site. I didn't know Parkour was popular enough to have a site. I learned parkour by watching the vids on the internet, and because there were so many different styles and people training parkour, my style was a combination of everyone I saw on the internet. Hundreds interpreted into my own personal style.
E. Merely by saying to read more, that implied I needed to correct something, as if my way was wrong.
It really irks me, actually I find it quite disgusting and ignorant, when he tells me to read more becuase my movement is weird. I move my way, we all do. This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
Don't shoot the messenger. I had these same thoughts but was never able to explain them until I read this article and had my group read it. He's doing what needs to be done, and I doubt he meant to elevate himself.
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"Fear is just the word ear with an "F" in front of it and ears are pretty funny." - Jackson Miller Yes, you are a good body type for parkour - human
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leon mederos
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 06:07:43 PM » |
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Stop arguing and train. Seriously, if someone says you move weird, ignore him. If a more experienced traceur says you move weird, and that it's HARMFUL, and recommends a solution - try listening  Blane was just pointing out that we DO NOT KNOW what will happen to the current generations of traceurs who have been given a silver platter and instructed on all the movements so instead of a year it takes a month to nail all the basics. He's wondering if they will turn out to be the same as the ones who trained and toiled for a year, learning every inch of their bodies (through mistakes and success) instead of learning all through success. He then states his opinion that he thinks this generation is worse off because they don't have the full experience. In my experience, I feel the exact opposite. I think that by handing all this knowledge to new traceurs they will know what works right off the bat. It doesn't mean they wont make mistakes and learn from them, because we will all still make mistakes (and learn from them  ) In the long run, one year of training doesn't make a huge difference... after 5, 10, 20 years that first year wouldn't have mattered much. Alas, only time will tell. 
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When we move, we move as one.
Act; for the universe will never forget your movement, nor will it ever forgive your stillness.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 06:17:34 PM » |
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History has proven over and over again that we advance further as a whole when we learn from previous generations...
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Conway {Refuze}
Patas
 
Karma: +18/-15
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Posts: 174
Movement speaks for itself.
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 07:27:44 PM » |
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I don't find anything new in there for me, meaning things I have felt about parkour.
People shouldn't compare themselves to others. I thought all tracuers knew and understood this. This is the way of parkour, to not compete and to not compare. I didn't know this was such a big problem.
Regardless, he is quite right of the "by the book" notion he was talking about. I have been practicing for 2 years, known of parkour for 3, and my friend always tells me that I do my movements "weird" as if it's my own little twist. He says I need to read more.
A. I realized immediately he was not a tracuer, not full in spirit, body, mind....not yet. Why?
B. Weird....compared to who? Clearly comparison was/is in him.
C. Read more. That affirms Blanes saying others have more info. these days. That's not exactly a good thing.
D. I was training for years without ever knowing about the APK site. I didn't know Parkour was popular enough to have a site. I learned parkour by watching the vids on the internet, and because there were so many different styles and people training parkour, my style was a combination of everyone I saw on the internet. Hundreds interpreted into my own personal style.
E. Merely by saying to read more, that implied I needed to correct something, as if my way was wrong.
It really irks me, actually I find it quite disgusting and ignorant, when he tells me to read more becuase my movement is weird. I move my way, we all do. This knowledge separates the tracuers from the ones who "do" parkour.
Don't shoot the messenger. I had these same thoughts but was never able to explain them until I read this article and had my group read it. He's doing what needs to be done, and I doubt he meant to elevate himself. what are you talking about!?  I never said he elevated himself. If he did than thats cool....or not. Idk. I never felt that he was elevating himself in any manner and I was def. not attacking him. I loved his post, absolutely love it. 
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Matthew W
Mangabey
  
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WAPK
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 07:44:52 PM » |
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I've always known that Parkour is a lot about experience.
In sports you can practice for two hours a day and just have a natural talent for the sport and become an all-star with no problems. Your body was born for that sport.
With parkour, even if your are in the best physical shape and can achieve any physical movement without a problem, you still lack experience. Experience is the best thing you can have in Parkour, you learn, built off, correct, and much more from simple experience. You learn what is wrong, what is right, and how to perform something better and safer from experience.
Lets say you're one of the country traceurs who only have one railing to train on. You've trained on it for 2 years over and over and over. You see other tracuers who can do much more than you who have been trainning for only a year, you think "why can't i do that? With all my training? Why?" Well guess what, maybe they can do more flashy and complicated things than you with other obstacles, and maybe railings, but you have experience. You know how to bail very well, you know form better, if not as fast as the other guys, you have strengthened your wrists, ankles, arms, legs, and everything else required in the movements on the rails much more so than the "better" traceurs. It's hard to explain perfectly, but hopefully you get the idea that with more experience, the better you are.
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Eli Kurtz
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Excelsior
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 07:59:07 PM » |
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I agree with Blane for the most part, but I don't think it's exactly fair to lump everybody into the same category. For instance, I'm going to be much less concerned for the physical safety of someone who's been doing gymnastics since he or she was five than I am with someone who was a couch potato/internet addict before starting parkour. It's not as if everyone starts out from the same place in terms of conditioning: I fully expect a long-time gymnast to make a huge amount of progress in his or her first year compared to someone who's never done anything physically demanding in his or her life.
That said, I agree with Blane and everyone else that experience is the best teacher, I just think that some people have more experience coming into parkour than others.
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Holland Wilson
Patas
 
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Formerly known as the Damned Scholar.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 09:16:13 AM » |
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History has proven over and over again that we advance further as a whole when we learn from previous generations...
Yes. Ultimately, the thing we have to do, as traceurs and as inheritors of a legacy we (hopefully) want to grow beyond what anybody would have imagined in the beginning, is know ourselves. If I know how my body works, I can determine what I can and shouldn't do, and I can apply the distilled knowledge of experienced traceurs to my training in such a way where I advance faster than those that came before but do not overstep the boundaries of where my body should be.
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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali
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