Kevin Davies
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 09:27:33 AM » |
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Secondly, the diet of a cyclist and an o-lifter, in terms of carbs, is not as different as you are implying. Realistically, anyone exceeding 50% carbs in their diet is hindering their recovery and progress as an athlete. Cyclists may find they need carb ratios that high, but not as often as you think....unless they are an endurance athlete that is still under the false impression that carb loading is a good practice... I mentioned specific goals, so please don't make assumptions on what I deem standard based on a general statement. I used a cyclist as an example mainly to describe a performance based athlete who wouldn't worry much about recovery. Sorry for not making that clear. A performance based cyclist will almost always exceed your precious 50% threshold. zing, burn since i never trained a cyclist, i will have to concede here, but i would still be inclined to disagree  I thought I would just throw my own two cents in here. I have trained pretty heavily as a cyclist in the past and still do a fair amount of cycling still. And for me, especially when I am riding a lot, I eat a boatload of carbs. I never actually measured the percentage, but I know from experience if I did not eat a lot of carbs my body would start feeling wiped out after a lot of hard riding. The problem I have found is that it is too hard on my digestive system to get enough calories through other means. I will still try to eat a good amount of protein and veggies and other good stuff and avoid straight sugar crap, but I personally have found it impossible to maintain the energy to do a lot of cycling without a fairly high carb intake. My riding buddies, who ride a lot more than me, have had similiar experiences. One of them did the Atkins diet for a while, but then after a while when he started riding more he couldn't keep on it, because he didn't have enough energy to maintain his riding volume (usually 150-250 miles a week). |
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 10:12:54 AM » |
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hm...
did you ever try to up your fat intake instead of carbs?
long duration exercise uses more fat than carbohydrate as an energy source
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Kevin Davies
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 11:18:44 AM » |
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long duration exercise uses more fat than carbohydrate as an energy source
My understanding is that that depends on the level of effort and duration of the endurance event*. Certainly for 100 mile ride at 50% of VO2 max, I think that would be true. But general a hard ride for me would be 1.5 hours at around 75-80% VO2 max (a little bit below anaerobic/lactic/steady-state/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-to-be-scientifically-accurate threshold) , where carbohydrates would still be the primary source of energy. To bring the conversation back a little bit to vitamin water  , in this type of riding I have found that diluted sports drinks with a little bit of sugar to be very effective. I have had the chance to experiment with the effect of different things, because I have a pretty standard ride that I do which is ride 26 miles to my work which takes between 1:15 to 1:40 depend on traffic and how I am feeling and how hard I want to push. If I use straight water, my ability to maintain a high level of effort drops about an hour in. If I use slightly diluted Gatorade (made from powder), I can maintain my hard effort the whole way. If I try to eat some sort of solid food it usually just slows me down because I am usually breathing pretty hard and have to slow down so I can swallow. I tried milk once, but that was just a bad idea and made me want to puke. I realize that all this has little to do with parkour, but since this were the thread had gone I thought I would throw in my personal experience. * http://www.cptips.com/lact2.htm http://www.cptips.com/bscphys.htm |
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 11:33:49 AM by Kevin Davies »
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Charles Moreland
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 11:33:50 AM » |
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If I use slightly diluted Gatorade (made from powder), I can maintain my hard effort the whole way. If I try to eat some sort of solid food it usually just slows me down because I am usually breathing pretty hard and have to slow down so I can swallow. I tried milk once, but that was just a bad idea and made me want to puke.
Thanks for bringing this up Kev. Another option I forgot to mention, although it is a little specialized. It works great for steady state activity like cycling but I think personally it is quite a stretch for application to Parkour which has the comfort of stopping when necessary and snacking and the like. Definitely a good point though. |
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Kevin Davies
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 11:45:29 AM » |
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It works great for steady state activity like cycling but I think personally it is quite a stretch for application to Parkour which has the comfort of stopping when necessary and snacking and the like.
Unless you are on top of a mountain and being chased by an old mountain lion who chases you all the way down the mountain and you have to run and use your mad parkour skills for an hour and a half straight to evade him. Then you might be like "Dude, I wish I had some Gatorade!"  . Hmm, well I guess that might fall under the specialized situation category, never mind. |
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 01:03:33 PM » |
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Hmmm.. vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage. Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use. Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption? That might have been a worthwhile investment of time. A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do  If it were MY body, I would try to increase my fat significantly during the day and switch to water just to note the effects. Then try increased fat with the gatorade dilution only during workouts. Keep track of my BF%, perception of fatigue and performance at that point. But thats just how I approach these things. My reasoning is that, while you may be using mostly sugars for a decent part of your workout, there is still a very significant portion (probably well over 60%) of the workout that is aerobic, using mostly fats. Glycogen reserves from the liver, if you eat enough carbs nightly (not implying overloading here, just that you aren't depriving yourself of carb) then your liver should still safely carry 2000-2500 calories of glyogen for use - so the lower carb diet might actually pay off in the end, increasing longevity and increasing insulin sensitivity/lowering insulin resistance. Thats my 2¢ solely based on the fact that you never tried to eat significantly more fats than carbs. Let me know what you think |
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Steve Low
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 04:45:30 PM » |
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Hmmm.. vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage. Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use. Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption? That might have been a worthwhile investment of time. A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do If it were MY body, I would try to increase my fat significantly during the day and switch to water just to note the effects. Then try increased fat with the gatorade dilution only during workouts. Keep track of my BF%, perception of fatigue and performance at that point. But thats just how I approach these things. My reasoning is that, while you may be using mostly sugars for a decent part of your workout, there is still a very significant portion (probably well over 60%) of the workout that is aerobic, using mostly fats. Glycogen reserves from the liver, if you eat enough carbs nightly (not implying overloading here, just that you aren't depriving yourself of carb) then your liver should still safely carry 2000-2500 calories of glyogen for use - so the lower carb diet might actually pay off in the end, increasing longevity and increasing insulin sensitivity/lowering insulin resistance. Thats my 2¢ solely based on the fact that you never tried to eat significantly more fats than carbs. Let me know what you think You're barking up the wrong tree. The thing with diet changes is that someone MUST be adapted to that diet first for it to work. That's why throwing athletes who usually do 70% carbs into Zone ratios or greater fat ratios it's gonna take them probably about 2-3 weeks to produce and rid itself of fat and carbohydrate metabolism enzymes respectively. During this time you would probably feel sluggish, lacking in energy, etc. This is the problem with most of the diets test; they don't take into account lag periods and only test a diet for a couple weeks.... which doesn't tell us anything at all unless the macros are similar in nature to the previous diet (in which cause the diet probably is similar enough and won't tell us anything at all). If he did up the fat, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help him at all and he may actually feel worse. Now if, for example, he took the time and went Zone with extra fat blocks and felt significantly better and decided to stick with it... then maybe adding mass fat during a ride would be a good idea (well, more fat would be burned in energy regardless during a run because higher B-oxidation rates). Carbs are still absorbed faster regardless.. but fats do provide more energy. This reminds me of something that occurs during the Tour de France where in the second or third day of hard riding it suddenly becomes easier as their bodies make the transition into much stronger B-oxidation for energy as opposed to carbs. Anyway.. yeah that's my take. |
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Use the search function, please.
Any advice given is not to be taken as professional information either medical, training or nutritional.
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 08:28:05 PM » |
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You're barking up the wrong tree. i dunno why, but that made me laugh lol I would agree with the adaptation principle, but i still recommend the experimentation, even if it is a longer duration "self experiment". Now if, for example, he took the time and went Zone with extra fat blocks and felt significantly better and decided to stick with it... then maybe adding mass fat during a ride would be a good idea (well, more fat would be burned in energy regardless during a run because higher B-oxidation rates). Carbs are still absorbed faster regardless.. but fats do provide more energy. That would still be my recommendation. Change the diet and notice the effect -- this is just a more specific and direct instruction....and i never suggested fat DURING the ride -- i am pretty sure that no one would be comfortable eating nuts or shooting olive oil during a run would be deemed comfortable. I am a proponent of higher carb ratios during activity, fyi |
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Charles Moreland
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 03:58:17 PM » |
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or shooting olive oil during a run
This made me giggle. More so because I see someone actually marketing this now... |
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bjkpersonal@aim.com
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 05:48:17 PM » |
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vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage. Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.
Is that just because you can get Gatorade in powdered form or because the ingredients in Gatorade are better than Vitamin Water? |
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Steve Low
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2008, 08:26:19 PM » |
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vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage. Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.
Is that just because you can get Gatorade in powdered form or because the ingredients in Gatorade are better than Vitamin Water? Both are, eh. With powdered gatorade you can control portion better diluting it to a good amount to replace electrolytes instead of dehydrating like it generally does. |
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Use the search function, please.
Any advice given is not to be taken as professional information either medical, training or nutritional.
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Kevin Davies
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2008, 05:46:41 AM » |
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Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption? That might have been a worthwhile investment of time. A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do You caught me in my careful avoidance of your question . I haven't experimented with increased fat per se. Though me diet used to have a lot more fat and I have actually tried reducing the fat and felt much better for it. But I should qualify that with the fact that a lot of that fat was also coming from things that were also highly sugary like cookies and candy bars and the like. I think Steve is right though: to see if replacing carbs with fats was beneficial I would have to do a more long term experiment and commit to something like the Zone diet for a prolonged period of time to see if it was helpful. In doing some quick research, I found one study were they had endurance athletes try the Zone diet for one week and found that it had a negative effect on their endurance. The article itself concluded that the Zone diet must be bad for endurance athletes, but I think that was a bad conculsion, due to factors that Steve mentioned such as the time it takes the body to adapt to a new diet. But what I think one could conclude from the study is that a short term experiments with diet will probably not be sufficient to find out the real effects of a diet change. Here is a link to the study: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0977.htmAs far as making a long term commitment to such a diet, I would have to research it more before I could do it. I know that a lot of people here are big fans of it and I have read a lot of what people have to say about it here and so all of the enthusiasm for it has made me want to become more knowledgeable about it, I just haven't taken the time yet to gain sufficient knowledge for myself. |
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bjkpersonal@aim.com
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2008, 08:18:31 PM » |
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Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption? That might have been a worthwhile investment of time. A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do You caught me in my careful avoidance of your question . I haven't experimented with increased fat per se. Though me diet used to have a lot more fat and I have actually tried reducing the fat and felt much better for it. But I should qualify that with the fact that a lot of that fat was also coming from things that were also highly sugary like cookies and candy bars and the like. I think Steve is right though: to see if replacing carbs with fats was beneficial I would have to do a more long term experiment and commit to something like the Zone diet for a prolonged period of time to see if it was helpful. In doing some quick research, I found one study were they had endurance athletes try the Zone diet for one week and found that it had a negative effect on their endurance. The article itself concluded that the Zone diet must be bad for endurance athletes, but I think that was a bad conculsion, due to factors that Steve mentioned such as the time it takes the body to adapt to a new diet. But what I think one could conclude from the study is that a short term experiments with diet will probably not be sufficient to find out the real effects of a diet change. Here is a link to the study: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0977.htmAs far as making a long term commitment to such a diet, I would have to research it more before I could do it. I know that a lot of people here are big fans of it and I have read a lot of what people have to say about it here and so all of the enthusiasm for it has made me want to become more knowledgeable about it, I just haven't taken the time yet to gain sufficient knowledge for myself. At one point, I decided to try to get rid of most fats in my diet (stupid fad diet), but I ended up feeling alot better from it. A few months later, I decided to try putting fats back in, and I felt 100 times better than before. It ended up being that after I got off my need of fats in my diet, I had enough sense to eat healthier fats which made me feel much, much better than low amounts of fats. I tried low-carb, felt pretty bad for a good month until I stopped. Random statement, just thought I'd throw that in there. |
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G_Dogg
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2008, 02:10:52 PM » |
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not to sure if this has been thrown out yet but they have zero carb zero calorie poweraide now thats really good (taste wise) im not sure about the sugar content thou but i can get em at the corner store for $1.05. ive never researched them thou so i dont know if there good for you or not but they seem better than anything else out there besides water
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Chris Salvato
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 03:02:37 PM » |
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not to sure if this has been thrown out yet but they have zero carb zero calorie poweraide now thats really good (taste wise) im not sure about the sugar content thou but i can get em at the corner store for $1.05. ive never researched them thou so i dont know if there good for you or not but they seem better than anything else out there besides water
I don't know this product from a hole in the wall but I will put a significant amount of money down that its loaded with artificial sweeteners. With that in mind, act based on how you feel on sweeteners. Personally, im against them. But that's just my opinion. |
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