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Title: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Ozzi on May 30, 2008, 03:09:57 PM We at HIpk will be posting the GOM every ... month (duh).
So I thought why not share it here. The GOM will consist on a particular drill or exercise to work progressively on in order to achieve the specify drill, add extra amount of reps to your existing number, or increase the difficulty of said exercise. I.e. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Clapping Push Ups (CPU's) Its benefits; Clapping Push Ups, will help you increase your explosive power, which will allow you to perform certain parkour techniques with more ease and better form (higher kongs, monkey, climb ups etc) therefor preserving energy and increasing your efficiency. Beg. Achieve CPU's (if you dont have it) InterM. Add an extra 5 reps (if you do have it) Adv. Achieve Double CPU front and back (if you already do over 15 CPU's). Once achieve, work on your form. once your form is clean and if you have still days left for the month try to go for max reps. Keep track and write how many you achieved by the end of the month. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In this example we will be including progression video to help you achieve your goal. At the end of the month you can come back to this thread and share with us how many did you achieve or anything else you want to add. This is not to compare your self to others, this is not a competition against anyone but yourself. All this GOM will be tried to be kept and design to specifically help you excel in your Parkour techniques to gain power, control, efficiency and speed. If you have any suggestions and or request you can always post them here (it'll make it easy for us as we wont have to think of one all the time. You might find them helpful. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: gsomej on May 30, 2008, 03:38:24 PM sweet that sounds really awesome
Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Ozzi on May 30, 2008, 04:08:56 PM This is the one for June.
----------------------------------- Alright guys, Here is the first of our monthly GOM editions. This month we are going to work on upper body power explosion. This is going to help achieve more ease and control when doing vaults such as monkey, kongs, turn vaults and two handed vaults. The GOM for this month is going to be; Clapping Push Ups (CPU's) We will break it down in 3 categories. Beginners, intermediate, advance. Beg. In order to achieve 1 CPU with clean form, you should be able to do at least 15 to 20 normal PU's non stop and with proper form in order to have the strength necessary for the explosive jump. With clean and effective form. If you are not at 15 to 20 reps yet, your goal for the next 30 days will be to achieve that amount plus 2 CPU's. Interm. You are an intermediate if you already can do at least 10 CPU's with good form and a certain ease, in which case your goal would be to add an extra 10 to 13 reps to your existing routine during the next 30 days. To achieve these, for the next 30 days you need to work on both, your regular PU's and your CPU's. Try doing some weighted PU's to increase your power in order to achieve ease while performing the CPU's. Adv. You are an advance if you can already perform at least 25 CPU's and you are not dying in the process. In which case your goal would be to add 5 more reps to your routine and work your way to the Double CPU (front and back). During these 30 days you need to work on increasing your explosive power, to do this, you need to start setting the clock to 1:00 and do as many CPU's as you can in that time. Pace yourself and if you need to pause you can, but take a deep breath and get right back into it, the idea is to work non stop throughout the whole minute. Once you feel you are gaining some power start working on the double clap. Your goal is to do 5 consecutive DCPU's. Remember to continue to do your regular training. Set 2 to 3 of days a week to work on the GOM early during the day, after a few hours of rest you can then still proceed to your regular training. You do not need to stop doing what you are doing, the idea is to increase your power. If you happen to achieve your goal half way during the month, you can try to reach the next category above your current one (i.e, from beginner to intermediate.) You can also just follow this plan. 15 to 10 days left of the month. Add an extra 8 reps. 10 to 5 days left add an extra 4 to your reps. 5 days left, find out your max out. Amount of reps until you cant continue further. At any time you can come back to this thread and post your experiences, ask for advice etc. At the end of the month, you are to come back and share your results. Max rep for your category, when did you reach your goal etc. Good luck and have a great workout. Looking forwad to see more powerful moves out there. Here are a few ways you can use to progress to the single clap and doble clap. You can also use this vid as reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53WMdh1ynoI 1- When doing regular push ups, explode hard so your palms slightly leave the ground but your arms are still straight. 2- Work on progression by doing incline push ups, you can use a low wall, stairs, bed, couch, anything really. The idea is to get your hands on something high, ideally use stairs so you can progress by lowering as you get better. Start with 4 steps (or more if you need to) and push hard so you lift yourself up then do the clap and come back down (watch for hand placement, spot the area where you will land again) 3- As you get better use less stairs all the way until you are flat. If you really need me to make a vid I will, but I dont think it is really that necessary. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Chris Salvato on May 30, 2008, 08:41:29 PM noble idea for those who may be lacking on definitive goals (which is actually many people)
although, front+back clapping pushups are way different than front clapping pushups...it requires a considerable amount of hip action, almost like a kip. whether or not you need 25 CPU as a pre-req is arguable, but its a nice way to amp the intensity -- but a double CPU has a much different technique all together :) just FYI Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Steve Low on May 30, 2008, 09:07:23 PM 1. I fail to see how increasing the reps is equivalent to more explosive power. Often cases, as you start to slow do you de-train the fast movement.
2. Like Chris said the double clap (and triple clap) require bending at the hips. It's very different technique than pure clapping, and doesn't necessarily build more explosive power than if you just did maximal explosive push without a clap (although the clap can be a gauge of such). 3. Increased endurance (getting from 10-20 reps) does not necessarily mean you build the power (not strength) required to do a clapping pushup. It is better to start doing pushups quickly and with explosive hops than to work your way up to an endurance based model. Anyway, that's my critique on the subject. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Ozzi on May 31, 2008, 10:21:05 AM Thanks for your comments guys, they are appreciated.
Here are a few thing to keep in mind though. Increasing endurance or amount of reps will require a certain amount of extra strength. If you max out is lets say 50, and you try to get to 60 you will need to work on gaining more power and endurance to get to your new set goal. Keep in mind I am talking about adding 10-20 reps to your max out (failure point) by achieving such in a low period of time, you will increase your power, maybe not by a lot, but some. Its true that the DCPU or TCPU is a complete technique of it own, I am not about to look like a jack as trying to argue that :), and yes it is also true you can build more power by just doing more CPU instead. One do need a certain amount of power to get off the ground and move the arms fast enough to do the clap even if you are using your hips though. In this case, it is more of a challenge I am putting there for the peeps at HIpk. ;) Steve, I did mention a way of progressing such as the one you mention above. Explosive hops. You did give it a better name, I didnt think of that. Chris, my 25 CPU pre require is really a guesstimate based on my abilities compare to the rest of the community (small and young) I might have to higher it maybe, if thats what you mean. More importantly guys, the reason for me to come with this GOM. HIpk is a community mainly form by very young kids. My goal is to introduce the conditioning mindset into their PK training. Giving them a way to set goals until they can do it on their own. If I, myself wanted to increase my power for real, I'll try getting to 100 CPU's, so I do see where your argument is valid. I am trying to give this kids something different to do and challenging thing while also having fun. This is really not for people like you Steve, or Ryan, or even me. But for those new comers who need a push and a way to get into goal setting routines. I do appreciate your comments and will keep it in mind for next month. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Steve Low on May 31, 2008, 11:16:19 AM Quote Increasing endurance or amount of reps will require a certain amount of extra strength. If you max out is lets say 50, and you try to get to 60 you will need to work on gaining more power and endurance to get to your new set goal. Keep in mind I am talking about adding 10-20 reps to your max out (failure point) by achieving such in a low period of time, you will increase your power, maybe not by a lot, but some. The higher the reps get the less strength you gain per. It's logarithmic. Power does not correlate very well either either strength or endurance but it does have a stronger relationship with strength. I do know what you mean for base conditioning for new people though. I don't know if I'd necessarily agree with the progression. We can, for example, get them working dips and pullups towards explosive climbups without excessively work when doing explosiveness but that requires a significant amount of discipline to perform. For new people, I think it is better to take a more circumferential route and build the base strength and conditioning needed to progress towards better things rather than just go right for the meat of things; but obviously it's the slower method and some people don't like that... however, it's safer and makes everything much easier to do in the end. That's why I would agree with you in this case of working towards higher reps for new people.... but don't delude yourself into thinking that it's any close to optimal for gaining power or whatnot cause it's not. For most power stuff like plyo or explosive work (see oly lifts) you need to stop once the lift/exercise starts to show signs of fatigue which is generally less than ~8 reps or so..., sometimes closer to 3-5 or less depending on what you're doing. Anyway, that's just from a pure standpoint of looking to optimally increase power. Carry on with the newbs. :) Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Ozzi on May 31, 2008, 02:39:02 PM Lol, this is talk that you and I can carry, and I kinda get confuse. LOl, I wont even try to explain this to them. They might quit PK.. haha.
Thanks steve. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Gregg on May 31, 2008, 06:17:35 PM Please, Steve... use small words. ;D
After I figured out what I thought you were trying to say... - Higher reps = less strength gained per rep. - Power is different than strength or endurance. It's more like strength, though. - People need base conditioning. The CPU and DCPU may not be the best exercises. You would prefer a slower, safer method? - High reps are ok for beginners, but not the best way to build power. Stop at signs of fatigue = 3-8 reps. ... Thanks for your help. So from your point of view, what would be the top five things to set as GOM in the future? Ozzi's right about HIpk being young. The Maui guys are pretty much 13 - 14. [Except me :P ]. The GOM is a "fun" way to challenge them. Maybe get the idea of goals to stick in their minds. Thanks Chris, for your points about the DCPU. I hadn't ever tried them before, and was either clipping my butt, or feeling bad for kipping. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Chris Salvato on May 31, 2008, 06:22:51 PM Quote Chris, my 25 CPU pre require is really a guesstimate based on my abilities compare to the rest of the community (small and young) I might have to higher it maybe, if thats what you mean. Yeh I figured it was a guesstimate, and I was just saying that I was unsure how good or bad of a guesstimate it really was, is all. It may be totally unrelated all together, believe it or not, since its a radically different technique involving a few more joints. Thats all I meant :) Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Steve Low on May 31, 2008, 06:59:45 PM Please, Steve... use small words. ;D After I figured out what I thought you were trying to say... - Higher reps = less strength gained per rep. - Power is different than strength or endurance. It's more like strength, though. - People need base conditioning. The CPU and DCPU may not be the best exercises. You would prefer a slower, safer method? - High reps are ok for beginners, but not the best way to build power. Stop at signs of fatigue = 3-8 reps. ... Thanks for your help. So from your point of view, what would be the top five things to set as GOM in the future? Ozzi's right about HIpk being young. The Maui guys are pretty much 13 - 14. [Except me :P ]. The GOM is a "fun" way to challenge them. Maybe get the idea of goals to stick in their minds. Thanks Chris, for your points about the DCPU. I hadn't ever tried them before, and was either clipping my butt, or feeling bad for kipping. 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3-4. Higher reps are good for beginners because it helps condition their bodies, joints and connective tissue to the rigors of exercise. Optimally, high reps are not the way to go about building strength or power although they (high reps) will confer some strength and power benefits just because said people are beginners. Beginners get stronger in pretty much all aspects from utilizing one aspect of exercise. With explosive exercises or plyometrics it depends on the exercise but generally yes you don't want to go anywhere near maximum fatigue. A lot of this is more advanced and tougher on the body so I would not recommend such programming to beginners. Clapping pushups, though, are not as dangerous like depth drops would be. As for top things, I'd say to try to get a combination of 3 different exercises to do for each "goal" namely one for the posterior chain, one pushing and one pulling. Doesn't really matter what per se as long as they can relate back functionally to Parkour. This will encourage development in pretty much all of the major movement chains of the body which is important in adapting to your environment. Perhaps get some focus on strength one time with like say handstand pushups, maybe pullups (weighted if necessary) and like weighted squats or something. Next time maybe something more proprioception based like improving balance with rail walking or QM, freestanding handstand holds, and say shimmying in cat position down the length of a wall. I think you'd see some marked improvement if you worked with this along with whatever other conditioning and technique work they do when you guys meet up in jams. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Chris Salvato on May 31, 2008, 09:03:35 PM Quote As for top things, I'd say to try to get a combination of 3 different exercises to do for each "goal" namely one for the posterior chain, one pushing and one pulling. Doesn't really matter what per se as long as they can relate back functionally to Parkour. This will encourage development in pretty much all of the major movement chains of the body which is important in adapting to your environment. Perhaps get some focus on strength one time with like say handstand pushups, maybe pullups (weighted if necessary) and like weighted squats or something. Next time maybe something more proprioception based like improving balance with rail walking or QM, freestanding handstand holds, and say shimmying in cat position down the length of a wall. I think you'd see some marked improvement if you worked with this along with whatever other conditioning and technique work they do when you guys meet up in jams. qft fo shizzle Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. Post by: Ozzi on July 01, 2008, 02:03:01 PM Here we go again.
This month we are going to go for creating jumping power. Before we start we are going to do a couple of things. We need to find out our broad jump and vertical jump. Measuring your vertical jump. Stand facing a wall. With your feet flat on the ground and body pressing up against the wall with one hand raised over your head reach as high as you can and measure the tip of your middle finger and make a mark. Put some chalk or something on your finger which will stick to or mark the wall. From standing, jump and touch the wall at the highest point you can. Repeat 3 X and take the best of 3. Measure the distance form one mark to another, this is your vertical leap. Measuring your broad jump. Measure your broad jump on flat ground. Start with your entire foot behind the line, jump as far as possible, measure the distance to whichever heel was closer to the start. Repeat 3 times and take the best measurement. The GOM for this month is going to be; Box Jumps (knee high) You can use a small wall no more than knee high. Maybe a chair. Proper method. Both feet take of together as you jump up, once you land on top you must fully extend your legs all the way up while jumping off of it the box with both legs taking off at the same time again and land on the ball of your feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cpKip0OIt4 Body Weight Squats. Proper method Feet about shoulder width apart. Back straight, weight on your heals squat almost all the way down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VFGi0fMo0 We will break it down in 3 categories. Beginners, intermediate, advance. Beg. A beginner level should shoot for a goal of 30 box jump and 50 body weight squats. Interm. You are an intermediate if you already can do those number above. So your goal would be to do 50 box jumps and 75 body weight squats. Adv. You are an advance if you can already perform the numbers above. So your goal would be at least 75 box jumps and 100 body weight squads. (I have yet to test this numbers, I might be testing them today and based on my results and they could be changed to higher) This is a non stop reps. if you stop for more than 5 seconds on either exercise that was the end of you routine. During these 30 days you need to work on increasing your explosive power, to do this, you could to start setting the clock to 1:00 and do as many reps as you can in that time. Pace yourself and if you need to pause you can, but take a deep breath and get right back into it, the idea is to work non stop throughout the whole minute. Remember to continue to do your regular training. Set 2 to 3 of days a week to work on the GOM early during the day, after a few hours of rest you can then still proceed to your regular training. You do not need to stop doing what you are doing, the idea is to increase your power. At the end of the month you are going to go back to measuring your broad and vertical jump and see the new results. If you happen to achieve your goal half way during the month, you can try to reach the next category above your current one (i.e, from beginner to intermediate.) You can also just follow this plan. 15 to 10 days left of the month. Add an extra 8 reps. 10 to 5 days left add an extra 4 to your reps. 5 days left, find out your max out. Amount of reps until you cant continue further. At any time you can come back to this thread and post your experiences, ask for advice etc. At the end of the month, you are to come back and share your results. Max rep for your category, when did you reach your goal etc. I will be making a vid today and will post later. Good luck and have a great workout. Looking forward to see more powerful moves out there. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: bjkpersonal@aim.com on July 01, 2008, 03:29:05 PM A few comments, if I may.
01. It'd be really nice to see a 'beginner, intermediate, advanced' set-up to vertical and horizontal jumps. I really want to have a good comparison to the strength of other people's jumps. ;D 02. For the box jump, I wouldn't recommend a chair.. lol. 03. For the box jump video, why does he always land on his entire foot? After at least 30 jumps, seems like it'd be painful. 04. Again for the box jump video, I think it'd be a good workout if, instead of jumping upwards and walking back down, standing on the box/stump/whatever, jumping backwards, swinging your arms backwards while absorbing impact with the balls of your feet, then using the forward swing to propel yourself back onto the 'box'. That way, you'll not only learn how to jump upwards, but be able to land nicely and use your entire body to jump. 05. When I do a full vertical jump, I swing my arms back them swing upwards with my jump. If I stand parallel to the wall and twist my hand to the right/left, do you think I'll get the same vertical jump height marking? Besides those things, good idea for a Goal of the Month. Not gonna lie, I hate pushups, so this is really good compared to clapping pushups all month long. :) I really would like some sort of set-up for different height/length jump difficulties, though. It's just something that nobody measures and everybody wants to know, kind of like running speed. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Ozzi on July 01, 2008, 04:14:44 PM 03. For the box jump video, why does he always land on his entire foot? After at least 30 jumps, seems like it'd be painful. 04. Again for the box jump video, I think it'd be a good workout if, instead of jumping upwards and walking back down, standing on the box/stump/whatever, jumping backwards, swinging your arms backwards while absorbing impact with the balls of your feet, then using the forward swing to propel yourself back onto the 'box'. That way, you'll not only learn how to jump upwards, but be able to land nicely and use your entire body to jump. 05. When I do a full vertical jump, I swing my arms back them swing upwards with my jump. If I stand parallel to the wall and twist my hand to the right/left, do you think I'll get the same vertical jump height marking? Besides those things, good idea for a Goal of the Month. Not gonna lie, I hate pushups, so this is really good compared to clapping pushups all month long. :) I really would like some sort of set-up for different height/length jump difficulties, though. It's just something that nobody measures and everybody wants to know, kind of like running speed. You gotta remember that guy is not a traceur, I just wanted to show an example or the exercise and ehn again, you are right, if you look at his third jump he doesnt step down he jumps down which is what I would like people to do. Do what you need to do so you dont smash your arm on the wall ;D "I really would like some sort of set-up for different height/length jump difficulties, though." what do you mean. Give me an example. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Steve Low on July 01, 2008, 06:47:29 PM These two exercises will not increase explosive power much.
You should be doing sprinting, max effort broad jumps/verts, strength work, possibly plyo depending on ability level. Basically explosive work. High rep work is not conducive to increasing power. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Ozzi on July 02, 2008, 01:38:21 PM Its worked for me, specially box jump so it will hopefully work for them.
Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Steve Low on July 02, 2008, 05:58:30 PM Its worked for me, specially box jump so it will hopefully work for them. If it's more technique than anything sure especially for beginners. But if we're talking about a plan to significantly increase power that's a negative. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: BobT on July 03, 2008, 01:08:06 PM Its worked for me, specially box jump so it will hopefully work for them. If it's more technique than anything sure especially for beginners. But if we're talking about a plan to significantly increase power that's a negative. But that could be the benefit - better neural pathways for vertical jump... Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Ozzi on July 03, 2008, 01:11:58 PM Its worked for me, specially box jump so it will hopefully work for them. If it's more technique than anything sure especially for beginners. But if we're talking about a plan to significantly increase power that's a negative. I dont think I need to explain again the kind of people this is being targeted to. It is not targeted for people like you or me steve. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Chris Salvato on July 03, 2008, 01:12:11 PM Good point Bob..
might be a good drill for beginners - but like steve i would disagree with the same model for intermediate or advanced. just my 2¢ Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: bjkpersonal@aim.com on July 10, 2008, 12:43:00 AM You gotta remember that guy is not a traceur, I just wanted to show an example or the exercise and ehn again, you are right, if you look at his third jump he doesnt step down he jumps down which is what I would like people to do. I just figured it was a traceur you know. Yeah, jump downs sound better, definitely. "I really would like some sort of set-up for different height/length jump difficulties, though." what do you mean. Give me an example. I really can't give you an example set that doesn't sound stupid, but I was suggesting something like.. Vertical Jumps: Chalk up your fingertips, stand up by a wall and jump! Record how high your finger marks are. Beginner: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. Intermediate: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. Advanced: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. ..and.. Horizontal Jumps: Find a good place to jump and leap as far as possible. Remember to stick the landing! Beginner: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. Intermediate: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. Advanced: Heights 5'0"-5'4": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'5"-5'8": ____ ft / ____ cm, Heights 5'9"-6'0": ____ ft / ____ cm. Something like that would be sweet. :) Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 10, 2008, 01:02:03 PM Just try to improve your vertical and horizontal jump numbers over the course of the month. Compete against yourself. That's what's most important.
If you must, try this calculator: http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/VerticalJump.html Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: bjkpersonal@aim.com on July 11, 2008, 01:31:39 AM Just try to improve your vertical and horizontal jump numbers over the course of the month. Compete against yourself. That's what's most important. If you must, try this calculator: http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/VerticalJump.html Ha, thanks. It's really immature but I'd like the satisfaction of being told that my jump higher than the general population. :) Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Steve Low on July 11, 2008, 09:41:36 AM Just try to improve your vertical and horizontal jump numbers over the course of the month. Compete against yourself. That's what's most important. If you must, try this calculator: http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/VerticalJump.html Ha, thanks. It's really immature but I'd like the satisfaction of being told that my jump higher than the general population. :) The general population is getting pretty obese, has no formal technique in jumping and have inactivated glutes from sitting a lot. If you can jump more than 5 feet or 18" you can probably jump farther & higher than 75% of them at least. P.S. I made up those numbers. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 11, 2008, 12:44:09 PM Compare your jump to the "elite athlete". That's an average of 26". The Vertical Jump Bible said his average guy was about 24". I like to compare myself to elite marathon runners. Their average is 12". ;D
Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: bjkpersonal@aim.com on July 11, 2008, 01:38:20 PM Compare your jump to the "elite athlete". That's an average of 26". The Vertical Jump Bible said his average guy was about 24". I like to compare myself to elite marathon runners. Their average is 12". ;D Jesus, 4 feet. I think traceurs are closer to marathon runners in composition, anyway. :P Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Chris Salvato on July 11, 2008, 02:01:56 PM Compare your jump to the "elite athlete". That's an average of 26". The Vertical Jump Bible said his average guy was about 24". I like to compare myself to elite marathon runners. Their average is 12". ;D Jesus, 4 feet. I think traceurs are closer to marathon runners in composition, anyway. :P yeah but they shouldnt be -- they should be more like sprinters, imho Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 11, 2008, 03:17:52 PM Jesus, 4 feet. I think traceurs are closer to marathon runners in composition, anyway. :P Are you referring to Kelly Bagget's 42" vertical leap, or saying that Jesus had a 48" vertical leap? ;D Since we don't train the same as marathoners, I'd hope we don't look like marathoners, or jump that bad. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Kevin Davies on July 12, 2008, 06:56:53 AM Out of curiosity Gregg, where do you get the 12" number for elite marathoners? I could certainly believe that for recreational marathoners, but since most elite marathoners could easily out sprint your average joe, and 12" seems to be below average I find it a little hard to believe. Just curious.
Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 14, 2008, 11:11:29 PM I've seen it a couple places: CrossFit Journal October 2002, "What Is Fitness": p. 4, "It is not uncommon to find marathoners with a vertical leap of only several inches."
Kelly Bagget's Vertical Jump Bible, p. 20 "... realize the average marathon runner has a vertical leap of about 12 inches!!" 12" is far below average. Your muscles adapt to running distance fast, at the expense of everything else. Look at the pictures of top runners: They look like survivors of Auschwitz. Just because someone can run 26 consecutive 5 minute miles doesn't mean they can jump well. After running a marathon, it's even worse - I think my vertical jump was about 1/2 inch for a couple days ;D Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Kevin Davies on July 15, 2008, 07:23:17 AM Both those references refer to your average marathon runner not to elite marathon runners. But you are right that your average joe marathon runner probably has a terrible vertical. It is kind of extreme example of what Steve talked about earlier in the thread, that high repetitions don't build your power. The reason I questioned that number for elite marathon runners is because they have enough power to out sprint your average joe, like me. For example, I have about a 22" vertical jump, and can only run a pathetic 15 second 100 meter dash, whilst someone like Martin Lel http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/london-marathon-and-speedo-lzr-news.html (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/london-marathon-and-speedo-lzr-news.html) can run the last 400 meters of a marathon at faster than that pace. Or someone like marathon world record holder Haile Gebrselassie can run that pace for an entire 5k. I have hard time believing people who can out sprint me when they are running at 5k pace or the end of a marathon don't have enough power to to jump within 10" of my vertical. I guess I am just being nit-picky, but sometimes I see these factoids thrown around whose truth is taken for granted when they may in fact have no basis in reality. But anyway, yeah running a lot isn't the best thing for your vertical jump.
Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 15, 2008, 02:05:06 PM Picky, picky ;D
The low vertical jump height for marathoners is not a factoid. I'm sure there are exceptions, especially among the "springy" Kenyans. I have not done a scientific test on them. Go for it. I'll stop saying "elite" until you tell me your results, ok? Since you're using personal experience: When I was training distance, I did 16-17 mph bursts in the middle and at the end of some of my 8-10 mile training runs. By your theory, since I was faster than you, I should be able to jump higher. I'm still about the same speed as you for the 100, but my vertical jump is only about half yours. Coincidence, or 30 years of distance running? Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Kevin Davies on July 15, 2008, 04:42:29 PM Quote The low vertical jump height for marathoners is not a factoid By factoid I merely meant there has not been any actually studies that I have seen that actually show this, just anecdotal evidence. I would love the opportunity to do such a study. In my counter anecdotal evidence, when I was a distance runner running 40-70 miles a week I had about a 27" vertical. But I pretty sure that my better vertical back then wasn't because of all the running, but because I did a lot of sprint work and I weighed about 35 lbs less. Which brings me to a great way to improve your jumping ability if you are overweight: lose the pounds. I had a friend (again anecdotal evidence) who lost 100 lbs. in about 6 months. He had an incredible vertical jump after that because his legs were used to supporting a lot more weight.Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 16, 2008, 04:30:04 PM I saw a study how a 90 km ultra race affects vertical jump, etc. Here's (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/rjsp/1998/00000016/00000007/art00005) the abstract. I figured you wouldn't be interested. That was as close as I could find. So far.
Here was what the abstract said about jumping: Vertical jump height was significantly reduced in the experimental group immediately after the race (P < 0.00001), as was the squat jump for up to 18 days (P < 0.001) after the race. Actual height jumped in the squat jump was reduced by as much as 20 cm immediately after the race. Leg extensor muscle power, as measured by vertical jump height, is impaired in runners for up to 18 days after a 90-km ultramarathon. Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Kevin Davies on July 17, 2008, 06:57:12 AM I saw a study how a 90 km ultra race affects vertical jump, etc. Here's (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/rjsp/1998/00000016/00000007/art00005) the abstract. I figured you wouldn't be interested. That was as close as I could find. So far. I saw that study too in doing a search for theses kind of studies. I am trying to get a hold of the full article right now to see if I can get what their actual jump heights actually were. But no doubt about it, a long hard run will seriously impact your jumping ability in the short term. Another very interesting study is the one discussed here: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0687.htm (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0687.htm). To summarize it, if found that for serious runners, jump height is very good predictor (74% accurate) of who will have a faster 10k time. Of course this correlation is not always true, i.e. Kelly Bagget's 42" jump does not mean he could beat or even come close to Haile Gebrselassie in a 10k or that Haile Gebrselassie could out jump Kelly Bagget. But for two people that are serious runners the faster one probably would have a better vertical. So for example, when I was a serious runner my fastest 10k was 37:20 and I had a vertical of 27", so , according to this study, Haile Gebrselassie, whose best 10k is 26:22, has a 74% probability of having a better vertical than me.Here was what the abstract said about jumping: Vertical jump height was significantly reduced in the experimental group immediately after the race (P < 0.00001), as was the squat jump for up to 18 days (P < 0.001) after the race. Actual height jumped in the squat jump was reduced by as much as 20 cm immediately after the race. Leg extensor muscle power, as measured by vertical jump height, is impaired in runners for up to 18 days after a 90-km ultramarathon. My take away from these studies is this: Running a lot will not help your jumping ability. However, working on your jumping ability and power will have the side effect of increasing your running ability. This idea is further confirmed by this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460997 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460997) Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Steve Low on July 18, 2008, 05:57:38 PM Yep, something we knew already.
Increased vertical/broad jump = increased power = increased stride length = faster times Title: Re: Goal Of The Month. JULY Post by: Gregg on July 26, 2008, 01:41:20 PM I read that one too. I think we were both looking for hard evidence, and found the same things. I don't remember my 10K pr, so you're 74% more likely to have a better time. ;D
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